Round 13: 2016 San Marino Grand Prix - Misano World Circuit Marco Simoncelli

Jumkie · Sep 18, 2016

Daniboy said:
So when Rossi retires MotoGP will be on life support ?

Retire? I wish. Rossi will never retire from the sport. He will have his dirty little paws in the game into perpetuity.

I'm talking about his legacy. It has changed the sport. White is Yellow and black is Yellow. We can't escape it.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

danski · Sep 18, 2016

Jumkie said:
Retire? I wish. Rossi will never retire from the sport. He will have his dirty little paws in the game into perpetuity.

I'm talking about his legacy. It has changed the sport. White is Yellow and black is Yellow. We can't escape it.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

You sound traumatised mate, it's not all bad, this year has seen more consecutive different winners than any season gone by. Surely that's cheered you up?

Jumkie · Sep 18, 2016

Daniboy said:
You sound traumatised mate, it's not all bad, this year has seen more consecutive different winners than any season gone by. Surely that's cheered you up?

I see that a direct effect of Michelin trying to fine tune their tires to suit Rossi. Trial and error. But they'll get it right in time for 2017. (If not a push for this year.)

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

AJV80 · Sep 18, 2016

Jumkie said:
I see that a direct effect of Michelin trying to fine tune their tires to suit Rossi. Trial and error. But they'll get it right in time for 2017. (If not a push for this year.)

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

I honestly have not heard the 'Michelin building tyres for Rossi theory' before, I'm not saying you are wrong, I honestly don't know. I don't even know who could or would ever verify that.

If the number of different race winners and teams this year are anything to go by it would seem (at least on the surface) that the tyres have suited a variety of manufacturers bikes and riders this season. I personally think the weather has played a bigger part this season than the tyres on the variety of winners.

Either way, I still find the Rossi tyre theory very interesting,

michaelm · Sep 18, 2016

AJV80 said:
I honestly have not heard the 'Michelin building tyres for Rossi theory' before, I'm not saying you are wrong, I honestly don't know. I don't even know who could or would ever verify that.

If the number of different race winners and teams this year are anything to go by it would seem (at least on the surface) that the tyres have suited a variety of manufacturers bikes and riders this season. I personally think the weather has played a bigger part this season than the tyres on the variety of winners.

Either way, I still find the Rossi tyre theory very interesting,

I definitely think the control ECU has made things more even, although I suspect HRC will eventually sort things out in terms of making their bike work with that ECU in which case the status quo may return.

I don't give Michelin or Dorna much credit for this year's tyre lottery however, where imo far from a greater variety of bikes being suited by the control tyre one or a very few riders have benefited each race from guessing the right tyre option or getting a higher quality tyre from from among tyres of variable quality.

I very much agree the weather has been influential.

p4p1 · Sep 18, 2016

I believe the electronics are the biggest factor to the more level playing field. I think the number of different winners can also be put down as you said to the weather. The lack of confidence compared to the Bridgestone riders seem to have in the front means(from what I can see) that the guys in the hunt for the championship don't want to take the risks in the wet. I'm sure if Marquez had the championship sewn up or was out of the race he would've fought Miller for the win for example.

AJV80 · Sep 18, 2016

michaelm said:
I definitely think the control ECU has made things more even, although I suspect HRC will eventually sort things out in terms of making their bike work with that ECU in which case the status quo may return.

I don't give Michelin or Dorna much credit for this year's tyre lottery however, where imo far from a greater variety of bikes being suited by the control tyre one or a very few riders have benefited each race from guessing the ride tyre option or getting a higher quality tyre from from among tyres of variable quality.

I very much agree the weather has been influential.

I agree, I think its a combo of both the control ECU and tyres that have levelled the playing field. The wet weather has probably amplified the effects of both of these changes. Dorna introduced these changes to try and level the playing field, based on this years results you could almost say its going to plan. However I think Michelin have a lot of work to do before they get it right and supply tyre options that the majority of the field benefit from them rather than being disadvantaged. I don't think it will take the factories long to sort things out with the control ECU either.

The bikes are built around the tyres, so the first few years on a different tyre is going to be difficult and take some time to sort out the issues. From memory when the Bridgestone control tyre was introduced around 2009 they had already been supplying MotoGP tyres in the years leading up to the control tyre year, which probably gave them better exposure before they where thrown into the deep end so to speak.

yamfan · Sep 19, 2016

The Michelin tyres have been disappointing so far IMO. The fronts are particularly poor and unpredictable. The vast majority of riders prefer a front tyre that is predictable and gives good grip. It's far easier to save a rear end slide than a front.
These guys are amazing and do sometimes save fronts, but when a tyre goes without warning even they have little chance to do so.

AJV80 · Sep 19, 2016

yamfan said:
The Michelin tyres have been disappointing so far IMO. The fronts are particularly poor and unpredictable. The vast majority of riders prefer a front tyre that is predictable and gives good grip. It's far easier to save a rear end slide than a front.
These guys are amazing and do sometimes save fronts, but when a tyre goes without warning even they have little chance to do so.

I remember recently where the front tyre of Ianonnes completely delaminated and fell to pieces, Lorenzo's didn't look much better either but at least he had the good sense to pit and swap bikes. They really need to sort out the tyres asap, I'd hate to see one let go and blow out on a rider.

JohnnyKnockdown · Sep 19, 2016

AJV80 said:
I remember recently where the front tyre of Ianonnes completely delaminated and fell to pieces, Lorenzo's didn't look much better either but at least he had the good sense to pit and swap bikes. They really need to sort out the tyres asap, I'd hate to see one let go and blow out on a rider.

When did that happen? Thats never been brought up

AJV80 · Sep 19, 2016

JohnnyKnockdown said:
When did that happen? Thats never been brought up

It happened at Brno, admittedly it was a wet tyre on a drying track.

yamfan · Sep 19, 2016

You possibly missed it because the commentators were busy saying Lorenzo had lost his head because of the wet and was gambling on taking a slick tyre. In fact he dumped his bike with a delaminated tyre, did a lap on slicks, then returned to the pits for his first bike which by then was fitted with a new wet front tyre. It ruined his race and he got no points. Iannone was lucky not to get black flagged or worse, have his tyre explode as he chose to race on dangerously with his tyre shedding tread everywhere. Several other riders suffered tyre failure too, including Brad Smith and Dovi.

AJV80 · Sep 19, 2016

yamfan said:
You possibly missed it because the commentators were busy saying Lorenzo had lost his head because of the wet and was gambling on taking a slick tyre. In fact he dumped his bike with a delaminated tyre, did a lap on slicks, then returned to the pits for his first bike which by then was fitted with a new wet front tyre. It ruined his race and he got no points. Iannone was lucky not to get black flagged or worse, have his tyre explode as he chose to race on dangerously with his tyre shedding tread everywhere. Several other riders suffered tyre failure too, including Brad Smith and Dovi.

I felt bad for Lorenzo, he had a .... of a day. His crew chief was trying to tell him to stay out on the stuffed tyre. Good on him for standing his ground, not worth the risk if the tyre decided to let go on him at 180mph.

I remember towards the later laps in the race when Iannone jumped on the brakes and the tyre exploded into pieces. Imagine the carnage if the tyre had popped when jumping onto the brakes hard off the end of a straight.

yamfan · Sep 19, 2016

AJV80 said:
I felt bad for Lorenzo, he had a .... of a day. His crew chief was trying to tell him to stay out on the stuffed tyre. Good on him for standing his ground, not worth the risk if the tyre decided to let go on him at 180mph.

I remember towards the later laps in the race when Iannone jumped on the brakes and the tyre exploded into pieces. Imagine the carnage if the tyre had popped when jumping onto the brakes hard off the end of a straight.

His crew chief didn't know the tyre was knackered as the section that had shed was underneath the bike and mudguard. He later explained this in an apologetic interview to Lorenzo, but was criticising Michelin at the same time.

Iamapony · Sep 19, 2016

yamfan said:
You possibly missed it because the commentators were busy saying Lorenzo had lost his head because of the wet and was gambling on taking a slick tyre.......

I wanted to slap them up-side the head. They are there and can't figure out what is happening, or they just like making things up for the hell-of-it. Truly an annoying MotoGP moment. How The Maniac finished is beyond me.

This year is out-there on bizarre rules and situations. Not only did the tyre manufacturer change, but the tyres have been about as unpredictable as the Pirelli tires in WSBK a decade ago. Heck, even VR lost the front at Austin, where it appeared he couldn't feel anything, either. That's what a mess the donuts have been. Even the VR built tyres suck for VR.

Remember that Ducati has been screwing with the M.M. ECU for years, now. And Yamaha has done time with it, too. Repsol Honda basicly started this year, and it has been evident. Obviously, someone at LCR is smarter than the overpaid Repsol lads.

Richy56 · Sep 19, 2016

Iamapony said:
I wanted to slap them up-side the head. They are there and can't figure out what is happening, or they just like making things up for the hell-of-it. Truly an annoying MotoGP moment. How The Maniac finished is beyond me.

This year is out-there on bizarre rules and situations. Not only did the tyre manufacturer change, but the tyres have been about as unpredictable as the Pirelli tires in WSBK a decade ago. Heck, even VR lost the front at Austin, where it appeared he couldn't feel anything, either. That's what a mess the donuts have been. Even the VR built tyres suck for VR.

Remember that Ducati has been screwing with the M.M. ECU for years, now. And Yamaha has done time with it, too. Repsol Honda basicly started this year, and it has been evident. Obviously, someone at LCR is smarter than the overpaid Repsol lads.

A repsol Honda is leading the championship, not much wrong with it. They may well win the team comp as well.

Crutchlows repair bill will pay for repsol Honda

Mick D · Sep 19, 2016

yamfan said:
The Michelin tyres have been disappointing so far IMO. The fronts are particularly poor and unpredictable. The vast majority of riders prefer a front tyre that is predictable and gives good grip. It's far easier to save a rear end slide than a front.
These guys are amazing and do sometimes save fronts, but when a tyre goes without warning even they have little chance to do so.

I wonder if the nature of the Michelin fronts would have saved Simoncelli? Hard to see them hooking up and bringing him back across the track.

Jumkie · Sep 20, 2016

Jumkie said:
MICHELIN ACCOMPLISHED: Rossi 2017 "Champion"

What is happening here is so obvious I'm amazed it's being utterly overlooked. Michelin continue to fine tune the tire, while 2016 is the season long testing session. The messaging being parroted is that this is "the golden era" of GP, pointing to the ANOMALY of race winners. Nobody is asking or understanding why this is an outlier. Michelin continue to test a tire in race conditions and nobody is the wiser! Marquez and Lorenzo continue to struggle with tires, Rossi continues to improve pace and consistency with an ever evolving tire. The alternate winners have done so with anomalous conditions combined often with tire choice countermeasures, wet, very cold, hot along with gamble on tires (biggy) meanwhile Rossi has been in contention for all of them. Today is an excellent example, Pedrosa went with the tire choice that was decidedly a countermeasure to not being able to use the hard that Rossi was supposed to win on over Lorenzo and Marquez. It's being played out under our noses.

Rossi 2017 "champ".

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

Jumkie said:
I was thinking something similar as i analyzed Pedrosa's performance. This win did emphasis the 'main' problem that Pedrosa has experienced this year. I don't suppose they've changed the electronics or handling characteristics of the RCVs for this race, however one glaring change was that Michelin brought a harder tire, which Pedrosa could not make work and so 'opted' ("chose") the soft as a countermeasure, it turned out to be thee difference.

This race served as the perfect control group to sus out the single most glaring issue between all the variables and unmitigated issues confronting Pedrosa, as I've been saying, that issue is the tire. Pedrosa and Marquez on the same bikes, drastically different performance, what a difference a TIRE makes. Pedrosa went with a soft combination, Marquez the harder, Rossi, the man that was supposed to win and would have won in Jerez fashion had Pedro not taken the risk on a tire that was not supposed to last a race distance (hence why it was the rarest "choice"). I submit to you for consideration, this performance illustrated perfectly my assertion that it's this year's Michelin that has presented the greatest challenge to Pedrosa.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

"That said, it's also true that a PARTICULARITY of THIS YEAR is that things may CHANGE a lot from race to race, so we'll see if we're able to manage things well and if we can have a good weekend." Marquez
Read more at http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/233773/1/marquez-aragon-suits-my-style.html#3TcJBPXuTuQVLQC8.99

I don't suppose they're changing the HONDA detrimentally and unpredictably every race are they? So what IS changing?

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

danski · Sep 20, 2016

Jumkie said:
"That said, it's also true that a PARTICULARITY of THIS YEAR is that things may CHANGE a lot from race to race, so we'll see if we're able to manage things well and if we can have a good weekend." Marquez
Read more at MotoGP News - MotoGP Aragon: Marquez: Aragon suits my style

I don't suppose they're changing the HONDA detrimentally and unpredictably every race are they? So what IS changing?

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

The weather and asphalt , plus no tangible data to use from years of Bridgestone.

Jumkie · Sep 20, 2016

Daniboy said:
The weather and asphalt , plus no tangible data to use from years of Bridgestone.

I also forgot to mention climate change, aka "global warming" (allegedly).

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

Round 13: 2016 San Marino Grand Prix - Misano World Circuit Marco Simoncelli

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