Round 13: 2016 San Marino Grand Prix - Misano World Circuit Marco Simoncelli

paparazzo said:

Stop trying to spin my words, you like to do that with everyone post. Maybe it is the fact you portray yourself as Rhode Scholar is why you do this. Never did I implied that VR or anyone else should have been champion in 2006, just saying that Hayden won through a continuous series of bad luck from all rivals rather than some supreme riding ability. Based on the equipment he rode his whole career he is a massive underachiever, I stand by that. Put your mask back on and stop spinning everyone posts to suit your narrative in order for you to respond with your anti-Rossi gibberish.

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So you answer to prove what I said, you guys can't stand to credit other riders. If Nicky won partly because other riders crashed that is the way it has always been, and no-one calls Wayne Rainey lucky to have won his 3rd championship. If Yamaha took a wrong direction Valentino was in his 3rd year as undisputed number 1 rider and in a position to influence that direction as few others have been.

The conditions were the same for everyone in 2006, actually arguably as the last year of what was widely recognised as being a great formula with the development of the bikes mature it was a year when the equipment was the most even for many years. Nicky might not have been a great 800 formula GP rider, but he was a rather good superbike rider as I knew from following him in the AMA, and the 990 bikes were more like superbikes.

I strongly believe there is no such thing as a lucky world championship, given winning requires being consistent over a large number of races in varying conditions, in premier class GP bike racing against the best riders in the world. I struggle to think even of unlucky non-winners, Mick Doohan was having one of the most dominant seasons ever in 1992 but if he wanted to win shouldn't have crashed. It was also in Valentino's control not to get beaten by Toni Elias or put his bike down at Valencia, Nicky Hayden actually being the one who lost points from something beyond his control when he was taken out by a ridiculous move by his team-mate.

As it happens the guy who was the Rhodes scholar in my year at University finished over 100 places behind me. He was a pretty handy Rugby Union player though.

Since we are talking old stuff:
I thought Loris Capirossi was the best rider in 2006. The Ducati was pretty damn good. He was my pick to be champion. Sh!t happens, and poor Loris was whacked by his teammate, and he was never the same after that. With the Ducati team in disarray, it left room for several other riders to fill in. Rossi really wasn't that strong that year, in my opinion.

Iamapony said:

This wasn't the (in)famous MM site was it? Because I had a not-so-flattering opinion of VRs action deleted from there. I then wrote him directly concerning the lack of free speech on his site. To which he responded with his "fund me" link. Needless to say, I did not send money. lol

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Perhaps a slip of honesty from Krop? With the right tilt, you might interpret his statement as tacitly stating that it's the hordes of Boppers clicking on his site that pay the bills, and that his site is tailored to pander to them.

I got banned for disputing one of those mealy-mouthed Oxley pieces, the one which wondered aloud, "How did MotoGP get so Mean?" Pointing out VR's long-standing habit and history of deliberately smearing and vilifying his major rivals didn't go down well.... (.... you, Krop!)

paparazzo said:

, just saying that Hayden won through a continuous series of bad luck from all rivals rather than some supreme riding ability.

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One could argue that Rossi was only competitive in 2015 for the same reason.

Iamapony said:

Since we are talking old stuff:
I thought Loris Capirossi was the best rider in 2006. The Ducati was pretty damn good. He was my pick to be champion. Sh!t happens, and poor Loris was whacked by his teammate, and he was never the same after that. With the Ducati team in disarray, it left room for several other riders to fill in. Rossi really wasn't that strong that year, in my opinion.

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Sure, Loris was unlucky, the crash wasn't really his fault or within his control.

I don't think Rossi was unlucky that year though. I think it would be fairer to say a number of factors meant that he didn't ride up to his capabilities, which is a different thing.

Geonerd said:

Perhaps a slip of honesty from Krop? With the right tilt, you might interpret his statement as tacitly stating that it's the hordes of Boppers clicking on his site that pay the bills, and that his site is tailored to pander to them.

I got banned for disputing one of those mealy-mouthed Oxley pieces, the one which wondered aloud, "How did MotoGP get so Mean?" Pointing out VR's long-standing habit and history of deliberately smearing and vilifying his major rivals didn't go down well.... (.... you, Krop!)

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So you answered Oxley's question, and despite you having the right answer you were banned. And Oxley wonders how GP got so mean? Well, I think you getting banned answers the question nicely a second time, it's gotten mean because journalists fail to stand up for what's right, they enabled his antics, and put down any dissension.

I mentioned this last week when Rossi brought up how he's still paying the price of energy this year from being robbed of last year's title. How many journalists took him to task at the press conference? One lady journalist asked him to clarify, are you tired or something? Rossi deflected as he is extremely media savvy, but still alluded to being cheated out of the title. Marquez and Lorenzo were present. How many journalists took him to task? Zero.

I'd like to ask Oxley who the hell else is being mean? Who else has an illustrious history of vilifying riders and "using the media as a weapon"? ( Marquez words). Who else is accusing riders of cheating? Who else is acting on his paranoia and crashing or barging out riders deliberately (Jerez, Laguna, Sepang)? Who the .... is "being so mean"? .... these weak as journalists who don't have the balls to call out Rossi and the system that allows his entitlement. Why hasn't Mike Webb been called on the carpet for admonishing rider's for doing nothing wrong? Have they called Race Direction on the carpet for applying a scandalous double standard of penalties for the Zarco vs Sepang debacle? No. Of course not. For the same reason you got banned Geonerd.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

Biggest thing i got from the weekend was lorenzos comments after qp.
He stated that he was trying to override the bike and being more aggressive.
His headspace is already with Ducati.

Richy56 said:

Seem to remember pedrosa being pretty good fun at Aragon last yr?

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Oh I agree, Dani has his moments, and when it all comes to together he's incredibly fast.

But if I saw that pass, and couldn't see the rider number, only that it was a repsol Honda, and someone asked me who it was, I'd say Marquez every time.

Anyway next round, its Aragon. Based on previous form I'd have to go with Lorenzo for that win. Assuming it doesn't rain.

Barbedwirebikerr said:

Biggest thing i got from the weekend was lorenzos comments after qp.
He stated that he was trying to override the bike and being more aggressive.
His headspace is already with Ducati.

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Funny but when I saw the practice footage and still images, my thoughts were Ducati

Any Spanish speakers here? What did Lorenzo say in the press interview that made Vinales and Rossi grin?


https://vimeo.com/182524941

paparazzo said:

Why it is ridiculous, cause it doesn't fit your narrative?

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What narrative would that be? As I've said before, the beauty of being unaffiliated and impartial is that it encourages a more objective viewpoint. I'm simply recounting what I saw. Nicky rode exceptionally well in 2006 and was the most consistent rider out there. Consistency wins championships. It does not negate them. I have nothing to gain from saying that and no emotional investment bar an AMA Honda America shirt that I purchased at Laguna in 2002 which actually I gave away to a mate of Jum's in 2011. I do admit to rooting for Brit riders in GP however.

paparazzo said:

And I will give you credit for your recap of 2006, it is on spot,

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Why because it 'fits your narrative'?

That Valentino may have been allocated a dud tyre at Valencia is simply a possibility based upon Stoner's observations that the bike looked out of balance. He states this because as an LCR rider at the time he was forced to run cast off's, lower grade Michelin's and frequently conflicting spec front and rear as were all of the satellite riders. He readily acknowledges that there is no definitive evidence of this bar Valentino's otherwise inexplicably poor performance on race day. There may well have been a great many other contributory factors that he, myself and you are unaware of.

Regarding the rest of the year, Valentino did have some atrocious luck, but after Pedrosa collected Hayden at Estoril, Rossi went to Valencia with the advantage and very much on the ascendancy. The fact that he was beaten across the line by Elias using Pedro's SNS illustrates what can happen given a more equitable playing field.

paparazzo said:

And no, I do not wish to watch ANY Nicky rides,

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Well that pretty much sums up the closed mindset of the Rossi religion doesn't it. I guess that is your loss my friend. Perhaps this is why so many mindless minions bleating GOAT every other sentence on these forums haven't actually heard of Mike Hailwood? I keep a large collection of footage on VHS, hard drive and increasingly saved online because I have enjoyed this sport since I was a child. Additionally, there are classic races that I sometimes recollect, visualise and rerun in my head - many of them featuring Rossi's finest moments. If someone suggested that I should revisit a race to revise my opinion on a rider I certainly would. I recommend Sachsenring 2006 a four way battle between Vale, Dani, Nicky and Melandri - all of them put in spectacular rides and that is why I love motorcycle racing. Genuinely, I don't care who is up front on the proviso that it isn't monopolised by unfair comparative advantage and so long as it is competitive racing.

paparazzo said:

I congratulate you on a great post.

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Thanks Talps, you have it in you too if you'd only dispense with this Rossi-centric diatribe. You used to be a great contributor to this forum - resurrect your old account and continue.

For all the criticism that has very often justifiably been levelled at DORNA we could conceivably see nine different winners this year and possibly another satellite team in addition to the four triumphant manufacturers. The unified software for me has been an unprecedented success, because who knows where factory Honda and Yamaha would be now - HRC in particular, using their own bespoke electronics.

yamfan said:

Totally off the subject, does any of you fine gentleman have the coverage of the 250LC support race featuring Niall McKenzie et al?
Sorry for going off topic guys.

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As the tiresome obligatory saying goes...'been there, done that, got the T.Shirt.'



It wasn't recorded unfortunately. Here's the result though...



There's some great vintage footage on the internet. ProAm was one of the reasons I bought my first two stroke road bike way back then having previously owned a DT175 for off road.

JKant said:

Any Spanish speakers here? What did Lorenzo say in the press interview that made Vinales and Rossi grin?


https://vimeo.com/182524941

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It's actually Italian.


It's basically just a tow. Like Lorenzo and Marquez accused Rossi and Vinales in Mugello. But I think it was Rossi who used it first, last year in accusations towards Marquez and Lorenzo and the whole fairytale and conspiracy theory.

"El nuevo biscotto, tal vez" literally translates to ''the new cookie maybe''

I need digital copies of all of the races you possess Arrab.

JPSLotus said:

I need digital copies of all of the races you possess Arrab.

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You'll probably need a time machine too JP, or you're not going to have time to watch them all. I know I would [emoji1]

JPSLotus said:

I need digital copies of all of the races you possess Arrab.

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I had Wayne Gardner documentary which I remember watching in the eighties. It was shown again on ESPN or one of the sports channels and I copied it on to a DVD recorder. Brought back so many memories. I was going to burn a disc and send it to Birdman but I couldn't find it on the hard drive. Turned out that someone has uploaded it onto YouTube.

Saying that there's is so much you can't find. I have so many VHS recordings from the late eighties, nineties and early 2000s - until everything went digital. I need to perform a full inventory and convert some of them.

The trouble with the digital age is that although you can find an abundance of footage online everything is so ephemeral and readily discarded. Nothing is hallowed anymore. That's one of the major issues with some social media in my opinion, the revisionist nature of it. You can literally rewrite your own history. I can't stand erasure of any kind. Sorry erasement. Not a particular fan of 80s electro-pop either...

yamfan said:

You'll probably need a time machine too JP, or you're not going to have time to watch them all. I know I would [emoji1]

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I have nearly every F1 race from 1978 thru 2008 in digital format on my computer. After 2008 lost desirability when they changed the formula. Though for completionists sake, I suppose I should try and get all of the seasons, but each year became less and less inspiring to me personally.

Finish line said:

It's actually Italian.


It's basically just a tow. Like Lorenzo and Marquez accused Rossi and Vinales in Mugello. But I think it was Rossi who used it first, last year in accusations towards Marquez and Lorenzo and the whole fairytale and conspiracy theory.

"El nuevo biscotto, tal vez" literally translates to ''the new cookie maybe''

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Thanks, and welcome to the forum. I don't like Adele too much, she always makes me cry. Rossi at least makes me laugh...albiet, at him.

The reporter asks Lorenzo about the hand signal exchange he has with Marquez, and when he says, maybe he's the new cookie, notice Viñalez laugh and both Viñalez and Rossi make eye contact. Like Fine Line says, he was referring to a conspiracy, one first started by Rossi last year, and perhaps his (Lorenzo's) own theory that Rossi was deliberately catching tows from a willing Marquez. It's actually a funny little .... you from Lorenzo. I'm glad he was able to muster the dig.

Thanks again JKant.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

Arrabbiata1 said:

I had Wayne Gardner documentary which I remember watching in the eighties. It was shown again on ESPN or one of the sports channels and I copied it on to a DVD recorder. Brought back so many memories. I was going to burn a disc and send it to Birdman but I couldn't find it on the hard drive. Turned out that someone has uploaded it onto YouTube.

Saying that there's is so much you can't find. I have so many VHS recordings from the late eighties, nineties and early 2000s - until everything went digital. I need to perform a full inventory and convert some of them.

The trouble with the digital age is that although you can find an abundance of footage online everything is so ephemeral and readily discarded. Nothing is hallowed anymore. That's one of the major issues with some social media in my opinion, the revisionist nature of it. You can literally rewrite your own history. I can't stand erasure of any kind. Sorry erasement. Not a particular fan of 80s electro-pop either...

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You bring up a really great point that I often think about with digital footage and the digital age as it relates to the larger picture of racing.

Digital footage online has certainly allowed for the ready made disposal of everything quite easy. While it's nice to be able to pull stuff up at a whim, the biggest problem with all of it for me, is that it lacks context primarily. Most people don't bother to go chase down the accompanying race reports to gain perspective on what they are watching. Once you have the appropriate perspective on the race, to me that is what makes a race turn into something truly hallowed.

Best example I can give would be if I uploaded and linked to the recording I have of the 1981 Monaco Grand Prix. The broadcast is not in English, which makes it already difficult for the uninformed fan. Watching it, most people would just think, "Great another 78 lap snoozefest around the principality." However, knowing the backstory leading into the race, and then being able to understand the absolute improbability of the outcome by every tangible measure available, it defies all logic. Yet, watching it unfold never gets tiresome, and instills it with meaning.

Most of this of course translates over to GP quite well. GP does a piss-poor job of really celebrating the history of grand prix motorcycle racing, outside of the history of one man. Sure you get the mentions, or camera shots of riders from long ago at the race, but they all lack context. Is it any wonder why the modern GP fan thinks as they do? They've been conditioned into accepting a revisionist history of the sport; 'the sport didn't achieve true meaning and value till the year 2000'. The internet does no favors in making it easy to find all of the revisionist tales, and the current crop of journalists feed this beast to no end. No definitive history on the golden age of 500cc grand prix racing has been written....and the 4-stroke era has been woefully revised to meet certain needs. Dissemination of information through the internet primarily makes it easy to change things as needed.

JPSLotus said:

You bring up a really great point that I often think about with digital footage and the digital age as it relates to the larger picture of racing.

Digital footage online has certainly allowed for the ready made disposal of everything quite easy. While it's nice to be able to pull stuff up at a whim, the biggest problem with all of it for me, is that it lacks context primarily. Most people don't bother to go chase down the accompanying race reports to gain perspective on what they are watching. Once you have the appropriate perspective on the race, to me that is what makes a race turn into something truly hallowed.

Best example I can give would be if I uploaded and linked to the recording I have of the 1981 Monaco Grand Prix. The broadcast is not in English, which makes it already difficult for the uninformed fan. Watching it, most people would just think, "Great another 78 lap snoozefest around the principality." However, knowing the backstory leading into the race, and then being able to understand the absolute improbability of the outcome by every tangible measure available, it defies all logic. Yet, watching it unfold never gets tiresome, and instills it with meaning.

Most of this of course translates over to GP quite well. GP does a piss-poor job of really celebrating the history of grand prix motorcycle racing, outside of the history of one man. Sure you get the mentions, or camera shots of riders from long ago at the race, but they all lack context. Is it any wonder why the modern GP fan thinks as they do? They've been conditioned into accepting a revisionist history of the sport; 'the sport didn't achieve true meaning and value till the year 2000'. The internet does no favours in making it easy to find all of the revisionist tales, and the current crop of journalists feed this beast to no end. No definitive history on the golden age of 500cc grand prix racing has been written....and the 4-stroke era has been woefully revised to meet certain needs. Dissemination of information through the internet primarily makes it easy to change things as needed.

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The same can be said about music...completely lacks context and available like tap water.

The Internet is so vast that you can find just about anything online, no matter how unreasonable and bizarre it is. So employing an efficient filter is often necessary to help to tell fact from fiction and to prevent people from inadvertently spreading nonsense because viral stories exploit your biases in an effort to get you to click like, share or retweet.The digital revolution, which has brought boundless access to information and entertainment choices, has somehow tended to perversely enhance the lowest common denominators— 'LOL' cat videos and the Kardashians. Instead of educating themselves via the Internet, or objecitively challenging what they believe to be true, most people lacking the necessary critical faculty, simply use it for reinforcement of their beliefs, to validate what they already suspect, wish or believe to be true. It creates an online environment where Jenny McCarthy, a former Playboy model with a high school education, can become a worldwide leader of the anti-vaccination movement, naysaying the advice of medical practitioners and over a century of clinical evidence based research..