Preziosi: Rossi is the greatest rider of all time

rossiofsky said:

For me nothing is decided and the championship isn't began yet, that goes for all the riders, Especially Stoner who has shown the best performance of all the riders in every winter tests and for some reason hasn't been able to make something out of his winter performances.

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Not sure on the winter test stat. you proclaim there but I can say that it does back up th basic problem with the Duc.



ie. Stoner could top the time sheets on the Duc. and then throw it down the road ...... at a test ....... it matters bugger all at a test. But when you have to string together 20-30 laps and you are already pushing a bike past its capabilities ( and Stoner would push rather than "settle ) then the end result is you "win it or bin it". Confirms that Stoner was capable of more than the Duc. could give Which again is why Honda grabbed him cos its back to the Doohan days for them, they now have a rider they have to keep up with on design, not a rider who can test the design they came up with asa speculation that it would make the rider faster. Stoner will present more new tasks in design and at a new level. Hopefully Honda can provide, unlike Ducati who were I believe incapable of it.

michaelm said:

It is ridiculous to say rossi hasn't been significantly injured, very credible that such an injury can cause differing degrees of impediment in different circumstances, and extremely silly to write him off after this one season particularly when his previous 2 seasons were so brilliant, let alone the rest of his career.



There has obviously been an element of ...-for -tat for some posters, but the same arguments applied erroneously to stoner and others are just as erroneous when applied to valentino. I did experience just a touch of schadenfreude when valentino obviously did find the ducati less than perfect and not all that easy to push hard whatever his other circumstances, particularly given statements by him earlier in the year that stoner wasn't pushing hard enough and strong implications from jb prior to the test that he could fix the thing before morning tea

.



I also saw the workings of karma even as a stoner fan in stoner being afflicted in 2009 after being disdainful of marco melandri in 2008, one thing I cannot defend him for. Interestingly both were diagnosed as having psychiatric/psychological problems by elements of the ducati team, somewhat outside their field of expertise I would have thought, rather than their being any problem with the bike, and virtually all pramac ducati riders in the 800 era have also been found to be personally deficient



Personally I think the bike has always been at least potentially fast, particularly when shod in the original bridgestone tyres, which I tend to agree with lex have not been in evidence since qatar 2008, but requires to be ridden in a fairly narrow window requiring immense focus from the rider; stoner's smiles at the valencia test may reflect the end of the need to psyche himself up so extremely as much as anything. I am sure rossi could ride the bike in a similar window quite possibly with a greater degree of coolness, but I doubt strongly that he wants to.

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Good post............what I wanted to say.

michaelm said:

It is ridiculous to say rossi hasn't been significantly injured, very credible that such an injury can cause differing degrees of impediment in different circumstances, and extremely silly to write him off after this one season particularly when his previous 2 seasons were so brilliant, let alone the rest of his career.



There has obviously been an element of ...-for -tat for some posters, but the same arguments applied erroneously to stoner and others are just as erroneous when applied to valentino. I did experience just a touch of schadenfreude when valentino obviously did find the ducati less than perfect and not all that easy to push hard whatever his other circumstances, particularly given statements by him earlier in the year that stoner wasn't pushing hard enough and strong implications from jb prior to the test that he could fix the thing before morning tea

.



I also saw the workings of karma even as a stoner fan in stoner being afflicted in 2009 after being disdainful of marco melandri in 2008, one thing I cannot defend him for. Interestingly both were diagnosed as having psychiatric/psychological problems by elements of the ducati team, somewhat outside their field of expertise I would have thought, rather than their being any problem with the bike, and virtually all pramac ducati riders in the 800 era have also been found to be personally deficient



Personally I think the bike has always been at least potentially fast, particularly when shod in the original bridgestone tyres, which I tend to agree with lex have not been in evidence since qatar 2008, but requires to be ridden in a fairly narrow window requiring immense focus from the rider; stoner's smiles at the valencia test may reflect the end of the need to psyche himself up so extremely as much as anything. I am sure rossi could ride the bike in a similar window quite possibly with a greater degree of coolness, but I doubt strongly that he wants to.

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Good post............what I wanted to say.

michaelm said:

I did experience just a touch of schadenfreude when valentino obviously did find the ducati less than perfect and not all that easy to push hard whatever his other circumstances, particularly given statements by him earlier in the year that stoner wasn't pushing hard enough and strong implications from jb prior to the test that he could fix the thing before morning tea

.

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That was back in September. Rossi was baiting Stoner and Stoner took the bait.



"It is very difficult to understand the level of the Ducati because Stoner doesn't push at 100 per cent," Rossi said



That's what makes me think Rossi did try with the Ducati. He tried to get comfortable and after that to get a competitive time. Unfortunately it looks like he never did get comfortable. Now we have this business of Ducati making a bike for Rossi, so that Rossi can be Rossi.



Stoner, Hayden, Melandri, could have used a bike that would have allowed them to feel confident. It's true Stoner went fast on the GP7/8/9/10, but maybe he and Hayden would have gone quicker again, on something that handled better. We will never know.



Stoner mentioned a few times that the bike you start the season with is the bike you end the season with, plus or minus a few minor changes. All of those guys were telling Ducati that the front end had a problem. In many races, you could see the bike required alot of effort to throw around, you could see how much the Ducati's rear pumped up and down. Basically Stoner & Hayden rode the nuts of the Duke just to keep up, whereas the Yamaha was much more composed. This in turn would allow Yamaha riders more opportunity for racecraft, as opposed to Ducati riders thinking, is the front going to tuck again on the next corner?



We can see now from Valentino's results how valuable this difference is for laptimes, let alone if you were racing and thinking, is the f$cking front going to tuck again on the next corner?



Anyway, you would think, why don't Ducati just fix this? Why don't they just listen to their riders? Obviously they listen to Rossi cause he's the GOAT, but if you're not Rossi (or Pedrosa who I would also include), you will not have the resources or the influence to ensure that your bike is changed into something that can work well. You will then be stuck with what you start the year with, plus or minus a few tweaks.



Anyway, maybe Ducati haven't listened to their riders up until now b/c maybe this is a function of having to package up a 90 degree V motor. It's easier to centralise weight on a narrower angle V motor (honda/suzuki) or an inline (yamaha) motor, but much harder on the 90 degree v4. Could that be was one of the negative things hinders handling, but Ducati still keeps it because it's part of the brand?



Imagine if one of the changes for 2012 (cause they couldn't do it in time for 2011) is to say, hey we need to go with a 72 or 75 degree motor.

BarryMachine said:

This two days test was "crunch time" for all those, over the past four years, that have said that the Ducati is the best bike on the grid and thats what got Stoner wins.

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Yeah, because the 07 duc is the same bike as the 2010 bike You yourself have been banging on aboiut how crap the big bang duc is, You can have it both ways berry !

chopperman said:

Yeah, because the 07 duc is the same bike as the 2010 bike

You yourself have been banging on aboiut how crap the big bang duc is, You can have it both ways berry !

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If you could read it Reg. you would see I am not trying to have it both ways

cangaceiro said:

That was back in September. Rossi was baiting Stoner and Stoner took the bait.



"It is very difficult to understand the level of the Ducati because Stoner doesn't push at 100 per cent," Rossi said

.

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Stoner merely said "well lets see how Rossi goes on the Duc". ......and we now know how that has gone. Stoner 1

BarryMachine said:

Stoner merely said "well lets see how Rossi goes on the Duc". ......and we now know how that has gone. Stoner 1

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Like you ... life i suspect, A bit premature

J4rn0 said:

NO. What I said is that he could stay at Yamaha.



Rossi had not 'demanded' that Lorenzo be fired expecting that Yamaha would simply oblige his wish. He told Yamaha a choice was needed, but he knew very well that the choice was to be made on the the basis of this year's results. What he wanted to do was to beat Lorenzo for the second year in a row (actually third, but the first one was Jorge's rookie year so we discount it). Then, Lorenzo would have left Yamaha -- be sure.



Things did not quite work out his way. Still Yamaha offered him a 2 years contract.

The opinion that he would 'lose face' accepting that contract is -- excuse me -- a little naif.

He chose to go -- that's all. Still the option was there.

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The choice was in fact an ultimatum. It was either or... and Yamaha went with "or." There is no way you can put another sophist spin on this. Next you'll be telling us Napoleon move to the island of Elba because he'd tired of his high pressure job

and preferred to spend his remaining days raising hybrid roses.



Given Rossi's immense ego - to say that it wasn't a question of losing face is naive. To conclude otherwise you would have to be in deep denial or just plain disingenuous. You're a smart guy - but brother your capacity to speak of Rossi in any objective terms seems to have gone out the window altogether. Rossi gambled and he lost. Get over it, time to move on.

Keshav said:

The choice was in fact an ultimatum. It was either or... and Yamaha went with "or." There is no way you can put another sophist spin on this. Next you'll be telling us Napoleon move to the island of Elba because he'd tired of his high pressure job

and preferred to spend his remaining days raising hybrid roses.



Given Rossi's immense ego - to say that it wasn't a question of losing face is naive. To conclude otherwise you would have to be in deep denial or just plain disingenuous. You're a smart guy - but brother your capacity to speak of Rossi in any objective terms seems to have gone out the window altogether. Rossi gambled and he lost. Get over it, time to move on.

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Let me repeat -- it was all dependent on results, not on words. Rossi counted on beating Lorenzo again this year, never forget that. You have to put his words in that context. He wanted none of his strongest rivals (Stoner, Pedrosa and Lorenzo) in his own team. So he made clear to Yamaha, "three years is enough. I win again this year, and you take this wild cat off my balls."



After Mugello, when it was clear he would not win, and Lorenzo was already virtual WC, he did not insist. His demands had meaning only if he was champion again. With Lorenzo WC, he would have become de facto rider #2. So he decided for Ducati.



It is the results that have caused the change, not an imaginary failed diktat and consequent loss of face. Which is what i call the psychodrama.

Different results would have produced different changes.

I can not recall any information being released where Rossi, Lorenzo and Yamaha had come to an arrangement that who ever finished ahead in the championship would remain and the other would go.



Seeing as though this is the basis of your argument J4rn0 can you provide a link to a media release where some or all of the parties discussed this agreement?

Mental Anarchist said:

I can not recall any information being released where Rossi, Lorenzo and Yamaha had come to an arrangement that who ever finished ahead in the championship would remain and the other would go.



Seeing as though this is the basis of your argument J4rn0 can you provide a link to a media release where some or all of the parties discussed this agreement?

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These things are not that kind of formal "agreements" and do not need to be.

Look here, do you believe that, if Rossi had won the title again this year, Lorenzo would have stayed at Yamaha?

It's so obvious. It all depends only on results.

cangaceiro said:

That was back in September. Rossi was baiting Stoner and Stoner took the bait.



"It is very difficult to understand the level of the Ducati because Stoner doesn't push at 100 per cent," Rossi said



That's what makes me think Rossi did try with the Ducati. He tried to get comfortable and after that to get a competitive time. Unfortunately it looks like he never did get comfortable. Now we have this business of Ducati making a bike for Rossi, so that Rossi can be Rossi.



Stoner, Hayden, Melandri, could have used a bike that would have allowed them to feel confident. It's true Stoner went fast on the GP7/8/9/10, but maybe he and Hayden would have gone quicker again, on something that handled better. We will never know.



Stoner mentioned a few times that the bike you start the season with is the bike you end the season with, plus or minus a few minor changes. All of those guys were telling Ducati that the front end had a problem. In many races, you could see the bike required alot of effort to throw around, you could see how much the Ducati's rear pumped up and down. Basically Stoner & Hayden rode the nuts of the Duke just to keep up, whereas the Yamaha was much more composed. This in turn would allow Yamaha riders more opportunity for racecraft, as opposed to Ducati riders thinking, is the front going to tuck again on the next corner?



We can see now from Valentino's results how valuable this difference is for laptimes, let alone if you were racing and thinking, is the f$cking front going to tuck again on the next corner?



Anyway, you would think, why don't Ducati just fix this? Why don't they just listen to their riders? Obviously they listen to Rossi cause he's the GOAT, but if you're not Rossi (or Pedrosa who I would also include), you will not have the resources or the influence to ensure that your bike is changed into something that can work well. You will then be stuck with what you start the year with, plus or minus a few tweaks.



Anyway, maybe Ducati haven't listened to their riders up until now b/c maybe this is a function of having to package up a 90 degree V motor. It's easier to centralise weight on a narrower angle V motor (honda/suzuki) or an inline (yamaha) motor, but much harder on the 90 degree v4. Could that be was one of the negative things hinders handling, but Ducati still keeps it because it's part of the brand?



Imagine if one of the changes for 2012 (cause they couldn't do it in time for 2011) is to say, hey we need to go with a 72 or 75 degree motor.

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Good post. Now will you stay for the off season and next year?

J4rn0 said:

These things are not that kind of formal "agreements" and do not need to be.

Look here, do you believe that, if Rossi had won the title again this year, Lorenzo would have stayed at Yamaha?

It's so obvious. It all depends only on results.

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Its hard to say, however it was very apparent last year that Jorge was talking to both Ducati and Honda. Which interestingly enough assisted in Stoner moving on, which of course lead to Rossi's move.



Its rather hypocritical that one of the leaders in forming heavily biased opinions on hearsay and conjecture, has now asked for proof from you, when so often proof is not needed in matters regarding Stoner, and they never provide it when asked............your point is obvious J4no, and the discussion now is only for the detractors to feed their 'Rossi ran away from Jorge' theory.



Unless somebody comes up with some very reliable inside information this is all ........, there are so many factors in and around Rossi's move to Ducati that until someone provides a direct quote from the man himself or Yamaha, you can keep throwing around the pay dispute issue, the injury issue, the development issue, the wall issue, the candid copycat celebrations issue, the 4 world titles and looking for a new challenge issue, the two top riders in the one team for yet another season issue............etc.



The Haters will always proclaim 'Rossi ran away' and completely ignore all other factors for it makes them feel good about themselves, but of course whatever the reason, in essence Rossi's move has already sparked more interest in the sport, especially from major sponsors as we've seen with AMG which is all positive, not too mention for the fans who may yet see a couple of seasons in Motogp which will actually deserve to be mentioned in the 'Best of all time' category.....

J4rn0 said:

Let me repeat -- it was all dependent on results, not on words. Rossi counted on beating Lorenzo again this year, never forget that. You have to put his words in that context. He wanted none of his strongest rivals (Stoner, Pedrosa and Lorenzo) in his own team. So he made clear to Yamaha, "three years is enough. I win again this year, and you take this wild cat off my balls."



After Mugello, when it was clear he would not win, and Lorenzo was already virtual WC, he did not insist. His demands had meaning only if he was champion again. With Lorenzo WC, he would have become de facto rider #2. So he decided for Ducati.



It is the results that have caused the change, not an imaginary failed diktat and consequent loss of face. Which is what i call the psychodrama.

Different results would have produced different changes.

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A lot of journalists seemed to have imagined exactly what I recall. The wildcat quote.... I've never seen it before. In any event it comes down to the same thing - a gamble, and Rossi lost it. He could have stayed - but didn't. Why would he desert the bike he loved for career-killing Ducati? I don't see any other pretext for such a move. But here for the hell of it is a direct quote from Rossi in a BBC interview:



Valentino Rossi



Switching teams 'unfaithful' - Rossi



World champion Valentino Rossi has hinted he will leave Yamaha if they do not drop Jorge Lorenzo in 2011.



Italian Rossi, who won his ninth world crown this year, has also revealed he could switch allegiance to Ducati.



Lorenzo recently signed a new one-year deal with the Japanese firm but Rossi does not think there is room for the two riders in the same team.



"Yamaha have to decide between me and Jorge for 2011," Rossi told BBC Two. "I have a great option to join Ducati."



My link



So... did the BBC interview an imaginary Valentino Rossi?

Keshav said:

My recollection is that a lot of journalists

seemed to have imagined exactly what I recall. The wildcat quote.... I've never seen it before. In any event

it comes down to the same thing - a gamble, and Rossi lost it. He could have stayed - but didn't. Why would

he desert the bike he loved for career-killing Ducati? I don't see any other pretext for such a move. But here for the hell of it is a direct quote from Rossi in a BBC interview:



Valentino Rossi



Switching teams 'unfaithful' - Rossi



World champion Valentino Rossi has hinted he will leave Yamaha if they do not drop Jorge Lorenzo in 2011.



Italian Rossi, who won his ninth world crown this year, has also revealed he could switch allegiance to Ducati.



Lorenzo recently signed a new one-year deal with the Japanese firm but Rossi does not think there is room for the two riders in the same team.



"Yamaha have to decide between me and Jorge for 2011," Rossi told BBC Two. "I have a great option to join Ducati."



My link



So... did the BBC interview an imaginary Valentino Rossi?

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Journalists, they thrive on the big headlines and the psycho-drama. Anyway if you believe it and it's your vision I can respect that.

My vision is that any rider, Valentino included, gets what he wants only if he wins on the track, not by issuing ultimatums. Rossi knows that, Lorenzo knows that, Yamaha knows that. So the assumption for getting rid of Lorenzo in 2011, was that he had to win in 2010.



It is obvious that if Lorenzo becomes world champion he cannot be asked to leave... ! Rossi is not stupid. The pre-condition for laying down your own terms, is that you are the Champion. Or at the very least you must be leading the points at mid season. If not, it's time to look for 'new challenges'

I totally agree nicky is now a test dummy.



I remember nicky,s comments when after first ride on Duc, “up caseys pay“ im sure we all remember how it went. Havent heard that come out of Vali.s mouth but the test times speak volumes to all dont they !



Is vali the goat ? After watching him struggle with duc and not being able to cope with its raw nature i say he is far from it.

I suggest spies would have circulated quicker and been able to adapt better on the duc test. With or without a sore shoulder.



Vali likes his bikes to handle like theyre on rails and smooth power delivery as well as big brakes, tell me a rider who doesnt require all of these to be perfect and only then he will be quick..... casey is by far the most adaptable rider out there, no question.



Now JB and his merry men will build vali a red yamaha and he will be on the pace again come new season.



Casey will start the season the way he finished the testing, on top. And prove to be the best its not up to a super team of the best engineers in the biz to build you a special bike its a lot to do with raw ability.



Cheers bring on, 2011.

Talpa said:

Its hard to say, however it was very apparent last year that Jorge was talking to both Ducati and Honda. Which interestingly enough assisted in Stoner moving on, which of course lead to Rossi's move.



Its rather hypocritical that one of the leaders in forming heavily biased opinions on hearsay and conjecture, has now asked for proof from you, when so often proof is not needed in matters regarding Stoner, and they never provide it when asked............your point is obvious J4no, and the discussion now is only for the detractors to feed their 'Rossi ran away from Jorge' theory.



Unless somebody comes up with some very reliable inside information this is all ........, there are so many factors in and around Rossi's move to Ducati that until someone provides a direct quote from the man himself or Yamaha, you can keep throwing around the pay dispute issue, the injury issue, the development issue, the wall issue, the candid copycat celebrations issue, the 4 world titles and looking for a new challenge issue, the two top riders in the one team for yet another season issue............etc.



The Haters will always proclaim 'Rossi ran away' and completely ignore all other factors for it makes them feel good about themselves, but of course whatever the reason, in essence Rossi's move has already sparked more interest in the sport, especially from major sponsors as we've seen with AMG which is all positive, not too mention for the fans who may yet see a couple of seasons in Motogp which will actually deserve to be mentioned in the 'Best of all time' category.....

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The picture of delusion. Here it is folks. In the face of evidence in the contrary, Talps & Co hold to their own demented beliefs. This whole thing played out in the media, why? Thanks to Rossi, because he did so at every opportunity. This dynamic and ultimatum was not created out of thin air, and it didn't come from Lorenzo either, it came from the arrogant mouth of Valentino Rossi. Period. Yamaha did not cave to his pressure, like every other entity has in the past, ie Dorna/spec tire, ie Bstones. I can only laugh at the new revision of history, that he left because he wanted to be "patriotic" or whatever insane rationalization that has been conjured since the switch.



We all know why Rossi switched. The after math is the nightmare he woke up to when he got what he asked for at Ducati. He tested the GP10 & 11, and found that Stoner was infact a freak. And now, Ducati must move heaven and earth for Rossi to be Rossi.



Folks, really, it doesn't matter what we say, or what is the universal reality, these people will live in their safe delusional world.



Hi Talps.