Preziosi: Rossi is the greatest rider of all time

Kropotkin said:

I think they thought about it, but they didn't expect Rossi to be 15th after two days of testing. That changes the equation radically.









Ducati have a lot of things going for them: Preziosi is quite clearly a genius, Rossi is almost certainly the best development rider ever and JB has had some minor success in developing bikes (I seem to remember a championship or two). However, Ducati's problem is that the basic design is inherently flawed, and that flaw is part of the philosophy behind the bike. The philosophy is that it is up to the rider to sort the front end out, and he is to do that by flinging himself into corners hard enough that the tire gets a good work out and heats up enough to grip. If anyone has seen the movie Birdy, it's like the bit where Birdy flings himself off the roof. It takes a lot of courage to do that if you don't know what's beyond the edge. Preziosi has to accept that the bike he has been developing for the past 4 years at least is flawed, and he has to change the bike sufficiently to do it. He has to accept that all that complaining that Stoner was doing (largely behind closed doors) was justified, and he should have listened.



If ever there was a group of people technically capable of doing it, it's Rossi, JB and Preziosi. The question is a more human one: are they capable of recognizing their own faults and stepping over them? I don't think they will until Rossi has finished the first four or five races in the bottom half of the top 10.

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I do not think there is anything in Ducati's design that is flawed -- the old 990 had the same design but did not have these problems.



Now, Stoner's "fault" is that he has been fast anyway, all the time, even while complaining. So Preziosi really didn't know what to make of that. He thought it was rider's idiosyncrasies. Their other riders probably did not have the same complains. So no radical action was taken.



Now the story is different. Rossi and Burgess know their stuff very well and carry a big weight in whatever they say about a bike. When they say the front end needs work, they assert it and also suggest ways to intervene and directions to go. So now Preziosi will have to act.



You are right about the initial "love" being short-lived. It could start again on a new basis, bu for the moment Preziosi was the most disappointed after the tests. He counted on Rossi being fast because that would have confirmed his opinion that the bike did not need much intervention. He didn't like the outcome. Rossi does not even try to go fast on a bike that does not give him plenty of front end feeling, so important for his riding style.



The good part of all this is that now they will face that nagging problem and probably solve it. Sooner or later, in the course of 2011...

Kropotkin said:

I think they thought about it, but they didn't expect Rossi to be 15th after two days of testing. That changes the equation radically.









Ducati have a lot of things going for them: Preziosi is quite clearly a genius, Rossi is almost certainly the best development rider ever and JB has had some minor success in developing bikes (I seem to remember a championship or two). However, Ducati's problem is that the basic design is inherently flawed, and that flaw is part of the philosophy behind the bike. The philosophy is that it is up to the rider to sort the front end out, and he is to do that by flinging himself into corners hard enough that the tire gets a good work out and heats up enough to grip. If anyone has seen the movie Birdy, it's like the bit where Birdy flings himself off the roof. It takes a lot of courage to do that if you don't know what's beyond the edge. Preziosi has to accept that the bike he has been developing for the past 4 years at least is flawed, and he has to change the bike sufficiently to do it. He has to accept that all that complaining that Stoner was doing (largely behind closed doors) was justified, and he should have listened.



If ever there was a group of people technically capable of doing it, it's Rossi, JB and Preziosi. The question is a more human one: are they capable of recognizing their own faults and stepping over them? I don't think they will until Rossi has finished the first four or five races in the bottom half of the top 10.

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Is this fact or just your opinion? I think Rossi's 15th was problems other than the bike aswell. Bear in mind he bought his op forward straight after valencia. For a flawed bike it aint done so bad

chopperman said:

Is this fact or just your opinion? I think Rossi's 15th was problems other than the bike aswell. Bear in mind he bought his op forward straight after valencia. For a flawed bike it aint done so bad

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Granted, Rossi's shoulder was just about done in. The idea that the Ducati is flawed is entirely my opinion - though I am not the only one who holds it - , but from things that both Stoner and Hayden have said, it's a very fickle beast. It works in a very narrow zone, and though they've broadened that zone a lot this year, it's still narrow by Yamaha's standards. Both the Yamaha and Honda have had different winners on the bike, the Ducati has had only Stoner.



Honestly, watching Rossi on the bike was strange, almost tragic. Rossi did not look anything like Valentino Rossi. He looked like Mika Kallio: tentative and cautious, conservative. Maybe when his shoulder is fixed he'll be capable of getting the Ducati to work, but it's a bike that either works or doesn't, no shades of grey, and if you don't wrap your mind around that, you can get lost at sea.



Anyway, we'll see. Rossi and JB can surely develop a bike, the big question to me is whether Preziosi will listen. I think it will take a few humiliating losses before Preziosi changes his mind.

Jumkie said:

Yes, it seems only a couple of men can say, this needs to change, and gets it done. Do you think this dynamic will be better for Stoner at Honda?

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I think Stoner will have as much success at getting Honda to change as Pedrosa has had, i.e. very close to zero. Only poor results on the track count, and if Stoner is as fast as the first test promises, development might well cease on the Honda.

Kropotkin said:

Granted, Rossi's shoulder was just about done in. The idea that the Ducati is flawed is entirely my opinion - though I am not the only one who holds it - , but from things that both Stoner and Hayden have said, it's a very fickle beast. It works in a very narrow zone, and though they've broadened that zone a lot this year, it's still narrow by Yamaha's standards. Both the Yamaha and Honda have had different winners on the bike, the Ducati has had only Stoner.



Honestly, watching Rossi on the bike was strange, almost tragic. Rossi did not look anything like Valentino Rossi. He looked like Mika Kallio: tentative and cautious, conservative. Maybe when his shoulder is fixed he'll be capable of getting the Ducati to work, but it's a bike that either works or doesn't, no shades of grey, and if you don't wrap your mind around that, you can get lost at sea.

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Great out Kropo. Yeah, its the shoulder (the one he podiumed and won on) but at least that should help peeps rationalize the P 15th, oh and it was just a test.



My opinion, he'll get the Ducati to work when they rework the Ducati. Shoulder had little to do with it.





Edit to add: We've had many speculations over the years as to who would do what if said riders traded bikes. Many of these discussion surrounded Stoner vs Rossi. I think the Valencia test answered a bit of this speculation, the thing is we will never get a certain body of the fans to accept it. Rationalization, its your best friend.

Jumkie said:

Edit to add: We've had many speculations over the years as to who would do what if said riders traded bikes. Many of these discussion surrounded Stoner vs Rossi. I think the Valencia test answered a bit of this speculation, the thing is we will never get a certain body of the fans to accept it. Rationalization, its your best friend.

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I've said publicly many times that I believe Casey Stoner is the fastest man on two wheels. However, Valentino Rossi is still clearly a better racer, as he can adapt and do what it takes to win. Stoner never has a backup plan, but often doesn't need one. Rossi will get you with treachery if he can't take you with speed. Jorge Lorenzo is interesting, as he has some of the racecraft of Rossi along with the speed of Stoner.



Obviously, any discussion of riders always degenerates into a ....-flinging contest, so I generally avoid getting into those discussions, preferring instead to drive rusty nails into my testicles as a more fruitful and enjoyable way to pass the time. But anyone who cares to lift the veil of prejudice can see there's more to racing than just their favorite guy.

Kropotkin said:

I've said publicly many times that I believe Casey Stoner is the fastest man on two wheels. However, Valentino Rossi is still clearly a better racer, as he can adapt and do what it takes to win. Stoner never has a backup plan, but often doesn't need one. Rossi will get you with treachery if he can't take you with speed. Jorge Lorenzo is interesting, as he has some of the racecraft of Rossi along with the speed of Stoner.



Obviously, any discussion of riders always degenerates into a ....-flinging contest, so I generally avoid getting into those discussions, preferring instead to drive rusty nails into my testicles as a more fruitful and enjoyable way to pass the time. But anyone who cares to lift the veil of prejudice can see there's more to racing than just their favorite guy.

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Oh lord, expect some replies. I hope you have a few rusty nails handy.

Kind of makes Nicky's 4th place finishes this year look a little more of an accomplishment now huh?

L8Braker said:

Kind of makes Nicky's 4th place finishes this year look a little more of an accomplishment now huh?

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Agreed.

L8Braker said:

Kind of makes Nicky's 4th place finishes this year look a little more of an accomplishment now huh?

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People are either ignorant or burry their heads in the sand (or both) when it comes to Nicky. They regularly say he's a 2nd tier rider. As of now, the rationalization is in full swing, but just consider, if the season started the day after Valencia. Nicky's curse has been to honestly compete in a dishonest series.



Check out this article.



Read the rationalization that Ducati must improve if "Rossi is to be Rossi"? What the .... does that mean? I thought Rossi was Rossi. Of course, at the moment we can rationalize that Rossi's poor showing on his maiden Ducati test was "just a test" or that his "shoulder was a major problem" (one that was NOT so major at Sepang, or any other race result for that matter where he got onto the podium, but suddenly the day after which, his limb was about to fall off?)



How fair is a competition when the riders are relegated to be top and second fiddle on a team? As much as a body of fans denies it, this predicament was so egregious to Rossi that he moved teams. Now I ask you L8, which year was Nicky the #1 rider? Which year was Nicky's word directing development to aid himself? I find it insanely outrageous for this article to state, "We must improve the bike for Rossi to be Rossi." What about, we should have been improving the bike for Nicky to be Nicky? Nicky has had a .... shake in MotoGP; they have overlooked perhaps one of the best riders in the series because he has no clout, and no national popularity of which Dorna gives a .... about (which is what directs the skewed support in this sport). Yet, we continue to point to these "aliens" (a term I always try to put in quotations because of its ........ nature). Did Rossi cease to be an "alien"? Then why must the Ducati improve if Casey showed it was a capable winning machine for him, an "alien"?



We've had peeps here say Nicky has shown .... results for years, but made no mention of a Honda designed around Pedro. I contend, putting Rossi on the 07 Honda would have looked as bad as Rossi on the GP10. Nobody would have believed it if one said it, that is until the Valencia test. Now we discover that the Ducati is "...."? Yet peeps are still willing to say, Nicky was .... on it to prove he is a 2nd tier rider. Well let me ask you, if the season would have started after Valencia, who would look like .... on the Ducati??? Could we have made a conclusion about said rider’s ability?



Do you remember when there was talk of Nicky going to Yamaha when they courted Rossi to join Stoner. I remember saying it would be a dream come true. Why, because I knew what would happen, Nicky would look like a genius on a Yamaha, and well, you know the rest. This is why I knew it wouldn't happen. Oh well. Peeps wonder why watch a series that has so much in common with WWF, well not sure, we are an irrational bunch when it comes to our passions. But make no mistake, its ....... ........ on many levels. It takes a good look without a certain perspective to see what is what in GP.

Jumkie said:

Great out Kropo. Yeah, its the shoulder (the one he podiumed and won on) but at least that should help peeps rationalize the P 15th, oh and it was just a test.

My opinion, he'll get the Ducati to work when they rework the Ducati. Shoulder had little to do with it.





Edit to add: We've had many speculations over the years as to who would do what if said riders traded bikes. Many of these discussion surrounded Stoner vs Rossi. I think the Valencia test answered a bit of this speculation, the thing is we will never get a certain body of the fans to accept it. Rationalization, its your best friend.

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True. An aching shoulder surely does not help, but when your name is Valentino Rossi it cannot be the main reason behind the 15th position in the tests, especially in view of the podium obtained with that same aching shoulder just 48 hours earlier. Hiding behind this kind of little excuses is something Rossi's fans should absolutely avoid. It's not the best way to honor a racer like Valentino.



Regarding the bike trading speculations, my position is (since a long time, so it's not suspect) that Stoner is the fastest rider on the planet, and Rossi is the greatest racer alive. If the same unknown bike was given to all riders, I think Stoner would beat all, the first time out (barring crashes). I wrote time ago, in this forum, that he reminds me of Hailwood in the way he can be immediately fast on any bike.



In time, however, one should see how things develop. Rossi, or Lorenzo, or Pedrosa, are not as immediate and instinctive as Stoner but, given their time, would find ways to match Stoner's speed on that same bike. Unless, that bike is a Ducati...?



The Ducati (the 800cc) has proven to be a strange beast, that only Stoner has been able to take to the limit. If taken to the limit, it is a winning bike -- but taking it to the limit is too difficult for most. So on a Ducati (800cc), Stoner looks unbeatable. Even given plenty of time, all other riders who have tried have failed to touch him, so far. (Watch De Puniet closely though...!)



It will be interesting to see if Rossi, given time and full cooperation by Ducati to make the necessary changes, can match Stoner's speed on that same 800. I would like the answer to be yes, but wouldn't bet my house on it. Especially if we consider the first race of 2011 as the deadline.

Well, I have my own theory as to why Nicky has been over looked, but it comes down to his passport. The jury is out on the passport theory though, lets see how Mr. Spies does in the future. Big difference though is that Spies (as you pointed out Jumkie) is on the Yamaha and Yamaha seem less susceptible to the political bs that goes on...IMO.

Nicky is an easy guy to like, he has over the years won over some folks with his hard work and laid back attitude. If Nicky would learn to be a prick and demand changes he could have possibly been more successful, who knows?

Jumkie, the Hayden/Yamaha pairing was too good to be true, can you imagine how Nick would have been perceived after riding that bike one year?





Anyway, back to the original topic....Ducati have to make the bike work or face the firing squad from their own countryman for making one of it's beloved son's fail! Not a good situation for them at all.

J4rn0 said:

True. An aching shoulder surely does not help, but when your name is Valentino Rossi it cannot be the main reason behind the 15th position in the tests, especially in view of the podium obtained with that same aching shoulder just 48 hours earlier. Hiding behind this kind of little excuses is something Rossi's fans should absolutely avoid. It's not the best way to honor a racer like Valentino.

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Why J4rno, I'm really impressed. I don't peg you (based on other posts) to say something so rational. Kudos to you for thinking this, but I doubt you will get much agreement with other Rossi fans.

Regarding the bike trading speculations, my position is (since a long time, so it's not suspect) that Stoner is the fastest rider on the planet, and Rossi is the greatest racer alive. If the same unknown bike was given to all riders, I think Stoner would beat all, the first time out (barring crashes). I wrote time ago, in this forum, that he reminds me of Hailwood in the way he can be immediately fast on any bike.



In time, however, one should see how things develop. Rossi, or Lorenzo, or Pedrosa, are not as immediate and instinctive as Stoner but, given their time, would find ways to match Stoner's speed on that same bike. Unless, that bike is a Ducati...?

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I agree with the statement that Rossi is a better "racer". However, I like how you say, unless on a Ducati (at least in its present state). Consider this, even if Rossi was to fight for mid pack positions, I'd still consider him the better racer for those positions. My point is, being a better "racer", is not enough, as it has proven that the real and only glory comes when those battles are fought for podiums showcasing that racecraft, so it must happen onboard a machine capable of top position battles.



I just posted a rant about Nicky and used Rossi as part of a benchmark for my reasoning. Some of it may be read as "hating" on Rossi. But I've said this before, that it is not Rossi's fault that they listen to the man. This is where people fail to make the distinction on my takes, as it is more a repudiation on the double standard of the sport and those that would deny its reality. The idea being that Rossi has benefited from this uneven reality, and by saying so, I must be belittling Rossi. But look again at the article I linked above. Is Preziosi saying Rossi is not capable of riding a bike unless its of the top tier? So is he hating or is he saying a rider is as good as what he competes with? Is he revealing a fact that many of us already knew, that the results achieved are of a direct consequence of being on the best equipment.

It will be interesting to see if Rossi, given time and full cooperation by Ducati to make the necessary changes, can match Stoner's speed on that same 800. I would like the answer to be yes, but wouldn't bet my house on it. Especially if we consider the first race of 2011 as the deadline.

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When the 2011 season comes along and Rossi starts podiuming and winning races, I will remind you that Ducati did move heaven and earth to provide a machine that he can ride. I have no doubt. Why? Because of the perception in the sport about VR, something that must continue, and they will enlist everything and stop at nothing, do do so. They will develop a bike around him and it will not be anything like what he rode at Valencia. Its the power that he can wield and has wielded, something that NO OTHER RIDER in recent memory has benefitted from, though they have all deserved it (barring maybe Pedrosa to a lessor degree).

Kropotkin said:

I think Stoner will have as much success at getting Honda to change as Pedrosa has had, i.e. very close to zero. Only poor results on the track count, and if Stoner is as fast as the first test promises, development might well cease on the Honda.

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agree. nobody is looking to spend where they can get away with not. Will anyone bother to run 800's in 2012? i can see next season being an anti-climax with little investment by most teams.

Jumkie said:

Great out Kropo. Yeah, its the shoulder (the one he podiumed and won on) but at least that should help peeps rationalize the P 15th, oh and it was just a test.

My opinion, he'll get the Ducati to work when they rework the Ducati. Shoulder had little to do with it.





Edit to add: We've had many speculations over the years as to who would do what if said riders traded bikes. Many of these discussion surrounded Stoner vs Rossi. I think the Valencia test answered a bit of this speculation, the thing is we will never get a certain body of the fans to accept it. Rationalization, its your best friend.

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you have fallen into a comfort zone compa. you have gotten (americanizum) so used to being in denial to anything rossi you have lost all objectivity. you need a slap, i will put you right next guna

chopperman said:

agree. nobody is looking to spend where they can get away with not. Will anyone bother to run 800's in 2012? i can see next season being an anti-climax with little investment by most teams.

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There will be no 800s on the grid in 2012. There will be a lot (as in, at least 6, possibly as many as 10) CRT bikes. That could get interesting.

Kropotkin said:

There will be no 800s on the grid in 2012. There will be a lot (as in, at least 6, possibly as many as 10) CRT bikes. That could get interesting.

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there aloud to run 800's in 2012 but as you say no one will bother, that shows how much money will be spent on rossi's duc and stoners honda

chopperman said:

you have fallen into a comfort zone compa. you have gotten (americanizum) so used to being in denial to anything rossi you have lost all objectivity. you need a slap, i will put you right next guna

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Is that a promise? You know, Kesh may be there, and you know how much you guys agree. Bring it on compa.

Jumkie said:

Is that a promise? You know, Kesh may be there, and you know how much you guys agree.

Bring it on compa.

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with the pirate juice and the snakebites there will be a riot you remember the snakebites? remember arguing with a parking meter then punching it out after drinking them ??

chopperman said:

there aloud to run 800's in 2012 but as you say no one will bother, that shows how much money will be spent on rossi's duc and stoners honda

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By mid-season, the rule permitting 800s will be quietly dropped in a meeting of the GP Commission, once it becomes clear that everyone will have a 1000 ready to go.