Preziosi: Rossi is the greatest rider of all time
- Thread starter rossiofsky
- Start date
I know that it is not worth debating with you because you are as irrational as they come but I will just call you on a few of your fantasies.
How is it then that Jorge was talking to Honda and Ducati in 2009, the reason your boy left for Honda in the first place........? If Jorge lost again this year, there is no doubt he would have been looking seriously for another ride.
My boy? When has Stoner been my boy? I have no preference for Stoner over Rossi or anyone for that matter. Just because I don't suckle at the Rossi teet as you do does not mean I am a Stoner fan.
I missed the press release that stated that Stoner left because they spoke to Lorenzo. Although I have no doubt that it contributed I have a broad enough perspective that there were probably other factors in the decision.
Funnily enough, it was also very similar at LCR Honda in the middle and at the end of 2006.........
Uhhh....?
So in your mind you can justify equal salary and development for the guy who won you 4 world titles and turned the bike into the best on the grid against a rider who, at the time, hadn't even won a single Motogp title.........what planet are you from? Does the head programmer at Microsoft deserve the same salary as Bill Gates too?
Funnily enough I don't have to justify anything as I do not own Yamaha. It is my impression that Yamaha can make what ever corporate and sporting decision they want to and they do not have to justify it to me, you, Rossi or anybody else. You make the mistake that because you are so emotional about Rossi that you have a say in what happens to him. I am sure there is some psychological term that defines what you have that maybe Mike can enlighten us on.
Unlike you I am sure Yamaha do not live just in the past. WC's in 2004, 05, 08 and 09 were wonderful for Yamaha and I am sure they cherish them but when they look ahead and think about who can win the WC in 2010 and beyond it seems to me that Yamaha's actions may suggest that they believe that Lorenzo is a better bet than Rossi. Once again that would seem to be their opinion and has nothing to do with me.
Firstly define 'rights' for if its the right to a better pay packet and the right to protect his development data then
As he should.......he's the nine time world champion, although this is in question here at powerslide too......
As far as I know Rossi is employed by Yamaha and has no legal right over any of Yamaha IP which I am sure data on the bike they own and operate is. You are aware that they pay Rossi to ride the bike and develop it and provide feedback? It is the same as your employer, they pay you to make Cheeseburgers and Big Macs but you have no ownership over the Big Mac that you make.
Unless you work for Fiat Yamaha management there's no way you could comment on this.....I certainly wouldn't imply it either way, because its a very big opinionated assumption.
Well as far as I know J4rn0 does not work for Fiat Yamaha management either but he seemed to be quite adamant that this arrangement was in place. As he does not work for Fiat Yamaha Management, as far as I know, I assume he is referring to information that he has sourced from the public forum. My retort was that I have not seen in the sequence of events that have played out in the public forum any implications from Yamaha that an ultimatum was delivered to the riders that who ever loses must leave.
I now expect you to go and tell J4rn0 that he must not comment on this unless of course he works for Fiat Yamaha Management in which case I apologise to him and take back everything I said. After all you offer a 'Fair & Balanced' perspective at all times.
You'll be eating these words when Spies beats Jorge at a few rounds next year, if the wall is coming down at all.......?
Jeez after all this living in the past now you want to shoot ahead to the future. It is so hard to keep up with you. Unfortunately for you I was speaking of what riders and their management HAVE done rather than speculating about what might happen in the future.
...........
This might be a bit off topic, but I remember Gary McCoy talking about the tyres he used to use which I believe were MIchelin for pretty much everyone at the time (I recall Dunlop was supporting only one bottom rung team at the time). Anyway, most people were using the 17 inch tyres and I believe he started the trend to use the 16.5 with the higher profile. But he would uniquely use a very soft compound and because he would spin so much, the tyre seemed not to heat up as much and get destroyed.
The problem for him occurred when other riders swtiched from 17 to 16.5. No one else would use the soft compound tyres. Or if they did, without spining/sliding enough, the tyre would get destroyed. So Michelin started to produce more of the 16.5 tyres, except now Gary couldn't get the soft compounds anymore because it was not what the other riders wanted and hence he couldn't get the tyres he needed to be competitive.
I'm not trying to say this was someone's fault, but just that if you are not someone of note or someone with powerful sponsors, you're going to have a much harder time getting the stuff you need to be competitive and often that's the small difference between winning and losing.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
Come on Keshav. You know perfectly well what I mean when I say journalists like to make headlines.
My point, I think, is abundantly clear. Lorenzo had to beat Rossi and become WC in order to stay on at Yamaha. It happened, and that is the only reason why he remained. And why Rossi left. One of the two had to go. If the opposite had happened, Lorenzo would have left.
The rest (losing face, etc.) is fantasy.
Please give us a link confirming your theory about Rossi having to win to stay. This is pure fantasy on your part.
In any event I have provided a direct quote from Rossi that unequivocably refutes your face saving theory.
But all you do is dance around the quote like it doesn't exist. If you refuse to acknowledge a direct quote from
Rossi - then there's no integrity in your argument. The truth is there in black and white and yet you pretend that it never happened.
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
It is apparent that what you hope is exactly that, to see him unravel, but that's your freedom of hope.
I cannot believe that now, in desperation, you resort to the old Bridgestone story (which by the way we have discussed in this forum in all aspects already, so you may want to go back to winter 2008 and read all that before going forward). You'll see that there was no ultimatum (apart on the headlines of some magazines maybe).
Ultimatum to whom, by the way? Dorna and MSMA could not have any objection about that, as there is no regulation forbidding that Yamaha use the same tires as Ducati or Suzuki. It was not in their power to decide. To Bridgestone? Why should Bridgestone care if Rossi leaves MotoGP? By the way, Bridgestone played reluctant to avoid showing a lack of respect for Ducati, their main partners until then; but they were only too happy to supply Yamaha and Rossi (which paved the way to their monopoly).
Last, Pedrosa. That's a nice example indeed. Pedrosa got the Bridgestones during the season (he began on Michelin and ended on Stones!) but nobody raised all the hell they had raised in the case of Rossi just a few months earlier. Speak of double standards
By the way: Rossi won in his first year with the Bridgestones. He could not win on them before getting them, right?
Talpa,
The point Jumkies trying to make is valid. Rossi's a talent, but if the machinery were more equal, he would not be as dominant. That I definitely believe. What we may see in 2011 is Rossi struggle if ducati can't make a ymacati in time as I would think their focus would already be looking to design for their 2012 machine. I just don't see them making big changes in 2 months. I would love to see Rossi beat Lorenzo.. Then we'd have a battle. But I think it will mostly be spies , stone r & Lorenzo up front in 2011.
The point Jumkies trying to make is valid. Rossi's a talent, but if the machinery were more equal, he would not be as dominant. That I definitely believe. What we may see in 2011 is Rossi struggle if ducati can't make a ymacati in time as I would think their focus would already be looking to design for their 2012 machine. I just don't see them making big changes in 2 months. I would love to see Rossi beat Lorenzo.. Then we'd have a battle. But I think it will mostly be spies , stone r & Lorenzo up front in 2011.
It is apparent that what you hope is exactly that, to see him unravel, but that's your freedom of hope.
I cannot believe that now, in desperation, you resort to the old Bridgestone story (which by the way we have discussed in this forum in all aspects already, so you may want to go back to winter 2008 and read all that before going forward). You'll see that there was no ultimatum (apart on the headlines of some magazines maybe).
Ultimatum to whom, by the way? Dorna and MSMA could not have any objection about that, as there is no regulation forbidding that Yamaha use the same tires as Ducati or Suzuki. It was not in their power to decide. To Bridgestone? Why should Bridgestone care if Rossi leaves MotoGP? By the way, Bridgestone played reluctant to avoid showing a lack of respect for Ducati, their main partners until then; but they were only too happy to supply Yamaha and Rossi (which paved the way to their monopoly).
Last, Pedrosa. That's a nice example indeed. Pedrosa got the Bridgestones during the season (he began on Michelin and ended on Stones!) but nobody raised all the hell they had raised in the case of Rossi just a few months earlier. Speak of double standards
By the way: Rossi won in his first year with the Bridgestones. He could not win on them before getting them, right?
Why is it that discussing Rossi rather than sucking on his .... is considered to be hoping for his failure? I do not hope for anything of the sort. To be honest I don't really care whether he fails or succeeds because for me it is not about any one rider.
I fail to see where my desperation is. You suggested that losers don't get to make ultimatums and I referenced a time when they did. Just because you choose to sit on the side that was blind to the politicking going on to get Rossi on BS when BS denied him does not mean that it did not happen. Although back then I did lurk on here from time to time and did follow to a degree the conversations that went on here I do not share the same arrogance as you that all the truth about MotoGP is spoken here and here only. PS is not the keeper of all MotoGP knowledge.
Thanks for agreeing that Pedrosa is an example of a rider not wanting his team mate to be able to compete on an equal footing. I am not sure why you brought him into that old BS story though as I didn't but then I am the one with the double standards, no?
Not sure what Rossi not being able to win on BS when he didn't have them has to do with my post but hey good point I would never have guessed that!
I said at the time that I had no problem with rossi having whatever tyres he desired as long as it involved no breaking of contracts or coercion of bridgestone by DORNA, and also suspect bridgestone may have been not too unwilling, but I can't agree with you about them wanting a monopoly; they have consistently said they wanted a competition, and have been widely reported to be on the verge of quitting the sport because of the absence of same.
Yes Bridgestone were quite clear that they did not want to supply anymore teams or riders and that they prefered to take part in a competition. Rossi said something that suggested he would stop racing if he couldn't win and with Michelin he couldn't win. Then all of a sudden he had Bridgestone tyres. I suspect something went on there, and i don't really believe it is quite right. But nobody in Rossi's position would have done anything else because that's what it takes to win. Dani did the same thing just to prove that fact.
Jeez, why are we going over the same .... thats 3 years old
Sorry Rossi fans he did have overnight tyres that were made for him, & yes that did give him an advantage but i think he still would of one the title anyways just Capirossi who was giving him a hard time would have won some more races. Even back then the jap tyres were moving forward towards the frenchies it just wasnt noticed so much due to the overnighters.
In Rossi's defence ANY rider needs to have the equipment to win, if you havent got it whats the point in competing in something that you no chance of winning, we all saw the gulf between the two tyre brands week after week so i think he did what ANY rider would do & get some of those very sticky black jap hoops for his bike.
And before the Stoner fans cry foul too much they need to remember that he also had tyres that were of a different spec to the other bridgies, his were harder, probably to keep the fire breathing monster of a bike he was riding at the time under control for race distance.
Thankfully the tire rules of late have meant that this has negated all the special tyre situations although it has hurt Suzuki as the tyres up until this season were similar to Stoner & Rossi's prefferred specifacations thus why they dont work too well with the blue bikes, they just cant get the heat into them - Thats just my opinion on the suzi's though.
Sorry Rossi fans he did have overnight tyres that were made for him, & yes that did give him an advantage but i think he still would of one the title anyways just Capirossi who was giving him a hard time would have won some more races. Even back then the jap tyres were moving forward towards the frenchies it just wasnt noticed so much due to the overnighters.
In Rossi's defence ANY rider needs to have the equipment to win, if you havent got it whats the point in competing in something that you no chance of winning, we all saw the gulf between the two tyre brands week after week so i think he did what ANY rider would do & get some of those very sticky black jap hoops for his bike.
And before the Stoner fans cry foul too much they need to remember that he also had tyres that were of a different spec to the other bridgies, his were harder, probably to keep the fire breathing monster of a bike he was riding at the time under control for race distance.
Thankfully the tire rules of late have meant that this has negated all the special tyre situations although it has hurt Suzuki as the tyres up until this season were similar to Stoner & Rossi's prefferred specifacations thus why they dont work too well with the blue bikes, they just cant get the heat into them - Thats just my opinion on the suzi's though.
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
My suggestion was not that: what I said is that the issue of who stays at Yamaha and who goes was decided, and could have been decided only, by results on the track. Not by imaginary ultimatums and a even more imaginary loss of face, which is your very personal theory. Have a look at the video of the farewell conference to Valentino by Yamaha, represented by Furusawa and Jarvis -- did they look disgusted with him, or you see a Rossi who just lost face?
Your latest suggestion is like comparing pears with apples, because there can never be any relation between 1) Rossi not wanting Lorenzo as teammate, and 2) Rossi wanting Bridgestone tires for 2008, after a 2007 season that had clearly shown him (and not others; Burgess wasn't convinced for instance) that there was no way to win the title on Michelins. I call that clarity.
You put these two events side by side only on the basis of your imaginary ultimatums. With such a theory of ultimatums, you should wonder what ultimatum Puig and Honda issued to Dorna and Bridgestone, to get them to supply Pedrosa in the middle of the season, in breach of an active contract with Michelin. But Pedrosa is not such an interesting target as Rossi, is he... No fuss on that one.
P.S.: answer to the last question: they did not have to issue any ultimatum. Bridgestone, for all their little drama of pretending to be forced to supply other teams and riders, were even more happy to supply Honda as well, after Yamaha. The talk about not having the resources to supply more teams, and preferring competition instead of monopoly, has been belied by facts: they promptly supplied more riders without any problem, and promptly signed the single supplier contract. Or is there anybody who thinks that all those "Bridgestone" big stickers on every bike are undesirable as publicity (with the Michelin name completely disappeared from the scene)
Jum is in essence saying, as you are by validating it, that Rossi's achievements are not great as they have been the result of unfair advantages, don't confuse this with advantages they have created with talent-these are 'unfair' advantages, which of course is stating that the man has talent but isn't that good and the equipment he has been using is the key reason for his success. The accusation therefore is that Rossi has cheated over his career. Don't backpedal or gloss over it and its nothing to do with next year or Ducati, we are talking about VR's nine world titles here.
I have called for him to investigate this as it is a serious charge, and dually noted Kropo has stated that Jum is not alone in his theory in the Motogp press circles. He is certainly not alone here on PS, so you all should get together and dig up the dirt, a few insiders from Aprilia in the late 90's and Honda early 2000's and of course Dunlop, Michelin and Bridgestone would most likely provide the info required, we would all love to be presented with the 'Facts' for a change......If you are successful in proving this theory, then of course its open season on all titles and we would be basically questioning everything we've seen, and see for authenticity.
Others spend lots of time here defending Stoners title in 2007, so to back up your point above, and this goes for you too Jum, are you willing to apply your view that in 2007 Stoner had talent but only dominated because of unfair advantages.......and hopefully with your investigation you can prove this one way or the other as well.
The accusation, as I understand it, is that Rossi has leveraged every possible advantage to get his own way and ensure an advantage over the duration of his career. As far as I know, he has never been accused of cheating. He's been accused of pressuring Yamaha and Dorna to give him Bridgestones, of pressuring Yamaha to give him better equipment and prevent Lorenzo from getting Bridgestones, of using Saturday night specials from Michelin (which he shared with three or four different riders), or pressuring Yamaha to make a decision between himself and Lorenzo. None of that is cheating, it's all entirely within the rules as they stand.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying, except as you usually do, you use very elementary debating techniques to veer from the point. "Cheating"? Ah, your lame attempt. The advantages were there, and they were real, and documented. The thing is, they were not illegal. Just like in 2007, when the perception was Bstoners were better (and this is debatable), thought the tire was not illegal. But you knew that right? And if you didn't, really, there is not enough time to catch you up with these complex concepts. The unthinkable happened, and MotoGP moved to a spec tire. This was the dramatic culmination of the series of events surrounding Rossi's dissatisfaction with Michelin. Yes, one man, on rider, at the center of this epic change in the sport. Think of the alternative, does anybody think that had Rossi won the 07 title that the series would have moved to a Bridestone spec tire? Why on earth would the series boot the Michelin tires that had so loyally provided the championship tire? Then why the change. Really Talps, there is not enough time, do your own homework. It was all played in the public, most of it at least. The parts that were not were so obvious as to no leave much to the imagination.
No need to investigate, I already know what in general terms is the politics of MotoGP enough to accept what is real and what is not. Its you who needs the update. And honestly, even given all the facts on video, black and white affidavits, it still wouldn't change your mind.
All you need to do is go back and read carefully the threads that tackled this topic, most of which you will find in threads started in 2008.
Strictly speaking, this wasn't just down to Rossi. Rossi got Bridgestones at the start of 2008. Pedrosa demanded - and got - Bridgestones in the middle of 2008. More defections threatened after Pedrosa switched, and the balance of the number of bikes on each tire brand was such that the agreement between Bridgestone and Michelin was breached, causing Ezpeleta (possibly at the prompting of Rossi, though frankly, this is a very Ezpeleta-esque strategem) to call for a spec tire, which duly came.
He has been accused of cheating here on PS many times, with Dorna in his back pocket-back room deals-the works, albeit this is not the Motogp press core, but it is certainly a public forum.
I'm glad you've shed light on your views of the over-night specials, I've always proclaimed that VR wasn't alone in receiving these despite being challenged every inch on it.
The conclusion I draw from the accusation is that Rossi has leveraged 'unfair' advantages, and if the advantage is gained whilst abiding by the rules as they stand then can it be considered to be unfair?
So based on this then, what conclusions can be drawn from the accusations on his achievements? And can the advantages you mentioned above considered unfair?
If others had the over-night special option, then this can hardly be considered to be unfair. No doubt the detractors will now state that VR's overnighters were more special. If he pressured his manufacturer to give him better equipment, well doesn't everyone do that? That's the aim of the game. The Bridgestone issue, if true, seems very unfair, if he actively sort to prevent Jorge from getting Bridgestones in 2008 then this is certainly an unfair advantage and requires investigation.
Thanks Krop, it is you Jum that needs to stop imagining.
You know in 'general terms'........yes indeed, Video evidence, affidavits? lets see it and let me decide then?
No actually just give me a straight answer now. Can you apply your Rossi's unfair advantage theory to Stoner's overwhelming dominance in 2007? Simple
KROPO i have a question about the overnight delivery tires and would like to know your insight...
Were the tires only for Rossi? I seem to remember That not only Rossi but the top honda riders of that time were also getting the tires. I ask cause every time they talk about overnight deliveries the haters only seem to throw Rossi under the bus
Afaik yamaha's contract with bridgestone was up at the end of 2007 so they and rossi were at liberty to change tyre suppliers; changing for only 1 rider was a little irregular though, suggesting some influence was brought to bear, as it implies either that bridgestone didn't want to supply both riders or that yamaha didn't really want to change. Dani changing mid season was rather more irregular though, and not very arguably would have been pretty much the end of michelin if the control tyre hadn't come in.
I am not at all sure rossi wanted a control tyre though; he just wanted to get the tyre which was best for him, and I tend to agree with j4rno that the control tyre has disadvantaged both rossi and stoner who had differing tyre requirements from the norm. There was some argument that michelin had become more focused on hrc rather than valentino if I recall, and michelin's financial situation seemed to be affecting their effort in motogp anyway. Ducati however were prepared to go with michelin in 2009 to avoid a control tyre, again because they wanted a tyre that suited their bike and/or rider. The end result of the tyre machinations whether as collateral damage or not was that ducati were denied the tyre integral to their success that they had fairly developed with the company that was the 2nd tier manufacturer at the time.
