Preziosi: Rossi is the greatest rider of all time

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Strictly speaking, this wasn't just down to Rossi. Rossi got Bridgestones at the start of 2008. Pedrosa demanded - and got - Bridgestones in the middle of 2008. More defections threatened after Pedrosa switched, and the balance of the number of bikes on each tire brand was such that the agreement between Bridgestone and Michelin was breached, causing Ezpeleta (possibly at the prompting of Rossi, though frankly, this is a very Ezpeleta-esque strategem) to call for a spec tire, which duly came.

exactly what ive been saying ever since he switched.. Dorna knew Michelin where have problems at board level as a company and so would have bridgstone. Dorna wanted them out so they could implement a single tyre rule. Rossi's contract was up with Michelin so was in effect a free agent as far as tyres were concerned. Trouble is the rossi haters here think rossi should have re-signed because Michelin had "given" him so many championships. They also believe he forced dorna to force Bridgstone into giving him the tyres because rossi said he would rather retire than re-sign with Michelin. Why should a rider be forced to sign a contract for equipment he doesn't want and it became clear that nobody wanted either. Dorna engineered this alongside Bridgstone imo because Dorna didn't want Michelin either. Far from Rossi using his stardom to force Dorna and Bridgstone, more like Dorna used rossi as a tool. It was very convenient Rossi's contract was up unlike Dani's.
 
Don't hate the player, hate the game. If any of the other riders were in a position to gain the advantages mentioned above they would have done it. Ultimately it is to Rossi's credit that he has acheived so much, even if some of it is political. Schumacher is the greatest F1 driver of all time and he did plenty of his winning off the track to help himself on it. That's how modern racing works.



I see Jumkie's point however, that Rossi's winning margin on the track cannot be taken to simply represent how much better he is a riding motorcycles. Rather it is how much better he is at being a motorcycle racer. There is a difference.
 
The accusation (widely borne out, though never proved) was that Michelin basically decided on Saturday afternoon who would get the good tires for Sunday. It was always a group of maybe four or five riders, often Hondas, because Hondas have always been at the front of the grid. Once the tire limits came in, effectively ruling out the overnight specials, that killed the tire wars. Bridgestone could never ship the overnight specials in, so they had to make tires that would work in as broad a range of conditions as possible. Michelin was used to making tires that worked for the conditions they knew would prevail (they were working with 24 hours notice), and so didn't have a clue about producing tires that worked across a broad range of temperatures.

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How is this direct quote from Rossi in a BBC interview qualify as imaginary? It's right under your nose in black and white.

I've largely enjoyed your posts but that you keep pretending that this interview and quote is "imaginary" forces me to

conclude that you're loonie. It's right there in your face and keep telling us that it's imagined. You're as whack as

the the flat-earthers, the ones who deny the Holocaust, and those who think no-one has been to the moon.



Valentino Rossi



Switching teams 'unfaithful' - Rossi



World champion Valentino Rossi has hinted he will leave Yamaha if they do not drop Jorge Lorenzo in 2011.



Italian Rossi, who won his ninth world crown this year, has also revealed he could switch allegiance to Ducati.



Lorenzo recently signed a new one-year deal with the Japanese firm but Rossi does not think there is room for the two riders in the same team.



"Yamaha have to decide between me and Jorge for 2011," Rossi told BBC Two. "I have a great option to join Ducati."



BBC Interview



FFS answer my question or shut up.



No need of getting upset. You insist on quoting words. Fine. I said that words are unimportant. I maintain that what decided who leaves and who goes at Yamaha have always been only the results on the track. Here Rossi simply states his point of view about what yamaha should do. To construe that as an ultimatum and consequently assuming that because such 'ultimatum' did not work then he lost face and had to leave, is a movie not reality.



Reality is that he had to leave because he lost to Lorenzo, not because he said those things and Yamaha did not oblige, and so his face was lost. Yamaha would have obliged, had he won again in 2010. But having lost, it was unimaginable that he stays at Yamaha at the side of a Lorenzo World Champion, in a de facto position of rider # 2. I think you can see this, if you look beyond words.
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Peace, it's not so important anyway.
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No need of getting upset. You insist on quoting words. Fine. I said that words are unimportant. I maintain that what decided who leaves and who goes at Yamaha have always been only the results on the track. Here Rossi simply states his point of view about what yamaha should do. To construe that as an ultimatum and consequently assuming that because such 'ultimatum' did not work then he lost face and had to leave, is a movie not reality.



So in your opinion Rossi's statement was simply neutral advice to Yamaha management spoken in public? And mentioning that he had an option to go to Ducati was just pledging his support to the team he loved, saying the he would be happy to leave for the benefit of the teams success? Does that seem likely to you? Or do you have some other explanation?



Yamaha would have obliged, had he won again in 2010



There is no evidence to support this. Lin Jarvis and Lorenzo both said they'd prefer Rossi to stay
 
Everyone pushes for advantages with their packages. What makes them "unfair"? I think there were advantages but not "unfair" as everyone wants to achieve the same themselves. If everyone is attempting to do the same, it should simply be referred to as pushing for advantages.



I think your last statement should be:



"Some of Rossi's achievements are definitely down to having an advantage. However, you don't win 9 world titles just by having an advantage."



'Unfair' taints that statement into a negative light when all riders are attempting to do the same. Should all riders therefore be tainted in the same light? You've got to remember this is prototype racing and therefore it is inevitable that different manufacturers etc will be able to create advantages from year to year with their machinery. The trick is to get onto the machine with an advantage or get the gear that does what you want it to do.



The reality of motorsport is that everyone wants to get that little bit more power or better handling to give them an advantage so that they can win. The sport is based on the ability to differentiate your machine from another and then to use your skill set to win the event. Just because one driver manages to get an advantage does not mean that it is unfair. That is the essence of the sport.



I agree. What makes an "unfair" advantage is if you don't have it and somebody else does. So all advantages are "unfair" depending on your viewpoint...
 
So in your opinion Rossi's statement was simply neutral advice to Yamaha management spoken in public? And mentioning that he had an option to go to Ducati was just pledging his support to the team he loved, saying the he would be happy to leave for the benefit of the teams success? Does that seem likely to you? Or do you have some other explanation?







There is no evidence to support this. Lin Jarvis and Lorenzo both said they'd prefer Rossi to stay





I call Rossi's words ways to apply some pressure on Yamaha, but not aut-aut's, diktats or ultimatums. The implied fact in Rossi's pressurizing is always that he wins, so there is something he gives in exchange for what he asks; failing which the pressure stops and he doesn't ask for anything any more (as in fact happened).



I agree there is no "evidence" (never will be on these things), and of course Lin Jarvis and Lorenzo always say the PR and PC things. But in a scenario in which Rossi had beaten Lorenzo for the third year in a row, what would you expect? Rossi's pressures to be the uncontested #1 rider within Yamaha would have become irresistible. And Lorenzo would probably go elsewhere of his own accord. That is what Rossi wanted.



Maybe for the show it is better this way, Rossi at Ducati with a tough challenge, Lorenzo at Yamaha as champion with a super-smooth M1. Lorenzo and Ezpeleta are surely happier than Valentino in this moment.
 
Dude, really, discussion over. I've notice Mental Anarchist has got suckered into debate, and its of no greater value than ours here. Really, to be debating something here that if by now you haven't accepted what was behind it several years ago when it was fresh, what possibility do I now have to convince you when you've revised the history?

1. 'The importance of tires cannot be underestimated in this sport, it is everything.' paraphrasing Rossi.

2. Saturday night specials, they existed. It was an "exclusive" arrangement with the top riders, especially Rossi. It was offered to others, but they had to pay for the service.

3. Bridgestones, Rossi used his influence to get them. You won't read it in an official press release. This ushered in the spec tire.

4. The spec tire, once it was introduced, Rossi became one of the primary rider's to cue its development. This became detrimental to others.

5. Rossi is the most powerful figure in the sport, he has benefited from this influence while other have had no such advantage. This speaks to the lack of authenticity of the competition. Deal with it.

This is certainly not worth the effort, but here goes anyway.



Firstly, Arrab is in a different league to you.......simple enough.



So now your saying that others could also get the overnight specials, an 'exclusive agreement' ....
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.... mate you are full of ...., only if they PAYED for them???? Wow never heard that one before, you've always stated to only Rossi was privy to these!! Now Kropos hammered your theory your on the back pedal with new imaginative ...............as usual.



Rossi become one of primary riders to 'Cue' the development of the spec tire........from what toilet wall did you pull this one? Do you have any facts/evidence to back up these statements?



I believe the common belief amongst the more informed, as we've already read here is that Pedrosa's mid season switch sparked the real fire that ushered in the single tire rule. Your wrong Jum, admit it.
 
I agree there is no "evidence" (never will be on these things),



So you are disregarding all evidence as unreliable on the basis that people only say the PC/PR stuff and that what actually happens is never known? That is absolutely ok, but it does make your opinion very hard to rationalize because you have decided that no evidence can confirm or deny its truth, it's simply something you believe is there. That is that you are faithful that the reality you will never know is what you hope it is. Religion.
 
exactly what ive been saying ever since he switched.. Dorna knew Michelin where have problems at board level as a company and so would have bridgstone. Dorna wanted them out so they could implement a single tyre rule. Rossi's contract was up with Michelin so was in effect a free agent as far as tyres were concerned. Trouble is the rossi haters here think rossi should have re-signed because Michelin had "given" him so many championships. They also believe he forced dorna to force Bridgstone into giving him the tyres because rossi said he would rather retire than re-sign with Michelin. Why should a rider be forced to sign a contract for equipment he doesn't want and it became clear that nobody wanted either. Dorna engineered this alongside Bridgstone imo because Dorna didn't want Michelin either. Far from Rossi using his stardom to force Dorna and Bridgstone, more like Dorna used rossi as a tool. It was very convenient Rossi's contract was up unlike Dani's.



I am learning so many things at the moment. Roger you have just taught me something new. See I have always thought that Yamaha owned Yamaha and that Yamaha had the contract with Michelin and other parts suppliers. I do not know how I was so stupid to have believed this for so long. It now appears that it is not Yamaha who had the contract with Michelin but Rossi himself had the contract with Michelin.



So just so I can get it right in my head, what do Yamaha do? Do they just produce an engine and a chassis and then hand it over to Rossi and he goes and secures contacts for suspension, tyres, steering dampeners. What about the fairing and the fuel do Yamaha supply that or does Rossi go out and sign contracts for that too?



It is actually quite comical that you actually believe that Rossi did not force Dorna to make BS give him the tyres. I guess you probably believe Oswald did it too.
 
So you are disregarding all evidence as unreliable on the basis that people only say the PC/PR stuff and that what actually happens is never known? That is absolutely ok, but it does make your opinion very hard to rationalize because you have decided that no evidence can confirm or deny its truth, it's simply something you believe is there. That is that you are faithful that the reality you will never know is what you hope it is. Religion.



Not ALL evidence. I never said people ONLY say PR and PC things. I certainly try to understand WHEN they do. Please do not stretch what I say
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Not ALL evidence. I never said people ONLY say PR and PC things. I certainly try to understand WHEN they do. Please do not stretch what I say
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So you are going to pick and chose which bits of evidence to disgard. Now it's even more like religion
 
As if this hasn't been debated on this forum, right? You don't do well with nuance, do you. It’s high-level order thinking, something that is routinely lost with you Talps. You are in no position to demand anything, since its you who have ignored the countless explanations by more eloquent members here than me. But here is for those following the thread. Stoner was the third choice for Ducati in 2007. What does this tell you about his influence on the development of the GP7 and the tires that drove its development? Very near zero. The tire that had been developed in concert by Bridgestone and Ducati was a long road with the plan to develop a tire that worked under a wide range of conditions (I've said this way before this thread). They forewent immediate gratification by giving up results in exchange of developing a tire. (Incidentally, those claiming Lorenzo benefited from the laurels of Rossi development as if it were a crime, and as if this had been completely the case, must recognize that Rossi benefited from years of Bridgestone development that he got in an instant during a fit of demand).



This development resulted in an excellent tire in 2007. This again had zero to do with Stoner. However, in 07, Stoner benefited from this tire that was at the time not exactly head and shoulders above the Michelin, though many have tried to claim this. One need only look to the second race of that season, where the podium had three Michelin riders. So it was still a work in progress (though some would like us to believe the Bstone was some magical silver bullet). Talpas would like to point to the Bstone as the "unfair advantage" but the reality is, it was still a tire developing, if anything was near par. The difference was Stoner's ability to adapt to a tire and motorcycle with fierce success! (Today, any remaining detractors need only look back a few weeks for evidence). It really is amazing that we would need to rehash this for you Talps, but one only need to look at the performance of the other Ducati's to have an idea what made the difference--Stoner. All the Ducati's were fitted with the same Bristones, and they were all on top of the speed trap charts. But only one dominated!



Now here is the meat and potatoes. The question is posed above, was this a consequence of an unfair advantage, similar to those of Rossi. The answer is NO! Stoner did NOT lobby for these changes nor participate in its development (fact); the reverse is true in the advantages that Rossi benefited from. The development of the Saturday-Night-Special was specifically from Rossi’s feedback. It was an exclusive arrangement for top riders, and it was a service that was offered to others at a price that limited its participation. Even then, when others paid, they felt they had not received "the good stuff". So many teams opted out, as they felt it was fixed. This is of historical record how the teams felt, though you will not find it in an official Michelin press release, however, journalist such as Randy Mamola have said as much in his Alpinestar articles.



Now what Talps? How are you going to deny it or not accept the truth? Will you overlook the nuance of one man have no participation in garnering the advantage while the other decidedly lobbied for it? This is not new, I’ve said it before. You just want to have people repeat it to you right? Ok, here it is. Now go on and burry your head in the sand, or twist what I just said.



You are the ultimate hypocrite. And 'unfair' advantage is an 'unfair' advantage whether it was wanted or not, whether is was lobbied for or not. The question was simple, did Stoner's dominance in 2007 result from an unfair advantage? Not how it came about, or who developed what, you've tap danced around yourself for 4 paragraphs and made a complete mockery of your own theory
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You are in complete denial and I dare say a tad bit unstable, I asked a very simple question and you've twisted and turned, ducked and weaved to no avail. Your now seriously 'All of a sudden' backpedalling on the overnight specials, saying remarkably now that others could also get them only if they payed !?!? proof PLEASE?? You are the one making very serious allegations, not backing them up with fact, then not accepting your own theory when its applied to another rider.



Rossi has had the advantage of being the top rider in the top teams with the top crew, all of the bells and whistles that accompany this status, as well as the status itself are earned from talent, and have been in accordance with the rules of the series. Its you who needs to prove, and I do mean actually PROVE, to everyone that this is 'Unfair'.......and should be discredited.



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Sorry i'm teasing you. But seriously, i don't agree with your logic. But that's hardly surprising given what you think of Lorenzo and what i think of Lorenzo.



My logic is simply that words have never been evidence of anything.
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About Lorenzo: I think he is a great rider, but I do not like him.

I also think that Rossi and Stoner are a step above Lorenzo and Pedrosa.
 
I am learning so many things at the moment. Roger you have just taught me something new. See I have always thought that Yamaha owned Yamaha and that Yamaha had the contract with Michelin and other parts suppliers. I do not know how I was so stupid to have believed this for so long. It now appears that it is not Yamaha who had the contract with Michelin but Rossi himself had the contract with Michelin.



So just so I can get it right in my head, what do Yamaha do? Do they just produce an engine and a chassis and then hand it over to Rossi and he goes and secures contacts for suspension, tyres, steering dampeners. What about the fairing and the fuel do Yamaha supply that or does Rossi go out and sign contracts for that too?



It is actually quite comical that you actually believe that Rossi did not force Dorna to make BS give him the tyres. I guess you probably believe Oswald did it too.

Rossi's contract with Michelin was up, lorenzo's was not. That was well documented ! Where yamaha fit into these team/rider contract's i dont know and neither do you !.

And that's chopper to you, we don't know each other unless you care to introduce yourself !
 
i don't get why people still try to argue with talpa as he clearly has no interest in a proper debate but instead insists on his idol cult



tyres grant an advantage,rossi had one for long and stoner was happy that in the later races in 07 he had the better tyres and he used his tyres as one of the many components on his bike and his talent to win



is that unfair?not more than overnight specials for rossi ,come on
 

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