Preziosi: Rossi is the greatest rider of all time

J4rn0 said:

My logic is simply that words have never been evidence of anything.

About Lorenzo: I think he is a great rider, but I do not like him.

I also think that Rossi and Stoner are a step above Lorenzo and Pedrosa.

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Exactly, not only do i like Lorenzo but i also think he is basically as good as Rossi now and has been getting better. I think its fair to question the words spoken in public by the people involved in this situation, but to disregard them all as meaningless is over simplifying the situation in my opinion.

chopperman said:

Rossi's contract with Michelin was up, lorenzo's was not. That was well documented ! Where yamaha fit into these team/rider contract's i dont know and neither do you !.

And that's chopper to you, we don't know each other unless you care to introduce yourself !

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That is not how i understood it. At the time, Yamaha's contract with Michelin was up. JB, Yamaha, Dorna, Michelin and Bridgestone all wanted Yamaha to resign. Rossi disagreed, and then after whatever negotiations took place Rossi got Bridgestones.

cliché guevara said:

i don't get why people still try to argue with talpa as he clearly has no interest in a proper debate but instead insists on his idol cult



tyres grant an advantage,rossi had one for long and stoner was happy that in the later races in 07 he had the better tyres and he used his tyres as one of the many components on his bike and his talent to win



is that unfair?not more than overnight specials for rossi ,come on

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Overnight specials were available to several riders. very few had the talent to capitalize on them, there really was no point in giving them to most riders as they would have been wasted. Stoner did have a tyre and bike advantage in 07 imo but it didn't ride itself, talent was needed to capitalize on the advantage.

Why have a go at talps? he has an opinion like we all do. agree or disagree his posts are worth reading.

Talpa said:

You are the ultimate hypocrite. And 'unfair' advantage is an 'unfair' advantage whether it was wanted or not, whether is was lobbied for or not. The question was simple, did Stoner's dominance in 2007 result from an unfair advantage? Not how it came about, or who developed what, you've tap danced around yourself for 4 paragraphs and made a complete mockery of your own theory

You are in complete denial and I dare say a tad bit unstable, I asked a very simple question and you've twisted and turned, ducked and weaved to no avail. Your now seriously 'All of a sudden' backpedalling on the overnight specials, saying remarkably now that others could also get them only if they payed !?!? proof PLEASE?? You are the one making very serious allegations, not backing them up with fact, then not accepting your own theory when its applied to another rider.



Rossi has had the advantage of being the top rider in the top teams with the top crew, all of the bells and whistles that accompany this status, as well as the status itself are earned from talent, and have been in accordance with the rules of the series. Its you who needs to prove, and I do mean actually PROVE, to everyone that this is 'Unfair'.......and should be discredited.

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Stoner's advantage in 2007 if he had one was not unfair or independent of his talent either though, and jorge actually managed to stay on his bike this season as he had not done previously whilst valentino did not, so their wins should have no caveats either which was where this now incredibly tedious argument started.



Whilst I often disagree with you I don't disagree that stoner's championship is now ancient history which is why I am not now making any prospective claims for him . Staying on the bike, staying healthy, organising to be with the right team, suitably motivating and advising/developing for that team appropriately are all part of being a champion for the ages as tom says; the race is not always to the swift, or not always to those who are only swift in a discussion involving rossi anyway as he is undoubtedly also swift .



Not withstanding this if stoner has a few wins early next year, stays on the bike and gets on a roll your boy might still be in trouble . And whilst stoner is now only a former world champion jorge is the current former world champion, and where he may stand eventually is very much up for grabs, and I say this as someone definitely not a fan of his.

Talpa said:

You are the ultimate hypocrite. And 'unfair' advantage is an 'unfair' advantage whether it was wanted or not, whether is was lobbied for or not. The question was simple, did Stoner's dominance in 2007 result from an unfair advantage?

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Of course Stoner had an unfair advantage in 2007. His unfair advantage is that he is the fastest motorcycle rider on the planet. He didn't have to dish up an ultimatum to get it either he just bought it to the table and scared the .... out of you and your bopper mates and your bopper.

Mental Anarchist said:

Of course Stoner had an unfair advantage in 2007. His unfair advantage is that he is the fastest motorcycle rider on the planet. He didn't have to dish up an ultimatum to get it either he just bought it to the table and scared the .... out of you and your bopper mates and your bopper.

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Stoner had an advantage but i don't think it was unfair. It was an advantage for him and him alone. He had the tyres right at a time when the Michelin's were really not getting their act together. He had a bike that was a bit of a handful and a rocket ship down the straight. The advantage was he jelled with it so nicely. pretty lucky as he had zero influence in its development but hey theat racing prototypes

With the overnight specials, others had them including Biaggi, Barros, Sete i believe but only rossi and sete managed to get the most out of them consistently.



Nice to become equanted with you Tod.

Tom said:

Exactly, not only do i like Lorenzo but i also think he is basically as good as Rossi now and has been getting better. I think its fair to question the words spoken in public by the people involved in this situation, but to disregard them all as meaningless is over simplifying the situation in my opinion.

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You surely like to twist.

Where did I say that I "disregard all words as meaningless"...?! I said words are not good as evidence, not that they are meaningless.

Come on, twist again...

J4rn0 said:

You surely like to twist.

Where did I say that I "disregard all words as meaningless"...?! I said words are not good as evidence, not that they are meaningless.

Come on, twist again...

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words have never been evidence of anything

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If words are not evidence of anything they are meaningless to you. If you think they hold meaning, then you will use them to deduce things and they are then evidence

Tom said:

Exactly, not only do i like Lorenzo but i also think he is basically as good as Rossi now and has been getting better. I think its fair to question the words spoken in public by the people involved in this situation, but to disregard them all as meaningless is over simplifying the situation in my opinion.







That is not how i understood it. At the time, Yamaha's contract with Michelin was up. JB, Yamaha, Dorna, Michelin and Bridgestone all wanted Yamaha to resign. Rossi disagreed, and then after whatever negotiations took place Rossi got Bridgestones.

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So how come Lorenzo stayed with Michelin after Rossi went to stones? I now the factory's have contracts with the tyre company's but i believe the riders do also. Remember when Hayden left Honda to go to ductati there was speculation about which tyres he would use as HE was contracted to Michelin. He even used to appear on there rather lame TV add

Mental Anarchist said:

Of course Stoner had an unfair advantage in 2007. His unfair advantage is that he is the fastest motorcycle rider on the planet. He didn't have to dish up an ultimatum to get it either he just bought it to the table and scared the .... out of you and your bopper mates and your bopper.

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If skill is the only advantage Stoner had in 2007 (and I agree he is the fastest rider on most tracks) how could he lose it in 2008?



Ah wait, it was because Rossi-the-cheater managed to get the same tires Stoner already had, by issuing an ultimatum to Dorna, Bridgestone, MSMA, and God Himself. Yamaha also was blackmailed into making a faster bike for him. Then he used unfair aggressive racing in Laguna, the ........



But now he's paying for all his sins, you can rejoice

chopperman said:

So how come Lorenzo stayed with Michelin after Rossi went to stones? I now the factory's have contracts with the tyre company's but i believe the riders do also. Remember when Hayden left Honda to go to ductati there was speculation about which tyres he would use as HE was contracted to Michelin. He even used to appear on there rather lame TV add

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Are you sure about this? When Hayden left Honda for Ducati Michelin were no longer in the series as it was a spec tyre.

chopperman said:

So how come Lorenzo stayed with Michelin after Rossi went to stones? I now the factory's have contracts with the tyre company's but i believe the riders do also. Remember when Hayden left Honda to go to ductati there was speculation about which tyres he would use as HE was contracted to Michelin. He even used to appear on there rather lame TV add

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A contract is an agreement. If one breaks a contract, he's brought to court. If he's not brought to court, that means they reached some other agreement.

chopperman said:

So how come Lorenzo stayed with Michelin after Rossi went to stones? I now the factory's have contracts with the tyre company's but i believe the riders do also. Remember when Hayden left Honda to go to ductati there was speculation about which tyres he would use as HE was contracted to Michelin. He even used to appear on there rather lame TV add

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I'd forgotten about that add!! Dual action, Dual compound!! YESSSSSSS



But seriously, Lorenzo was a 250cc rider until then end of 2007, he was riding Dunlops. When he came to Yamaha he would ride whatever tyre that team was contracted to, which was Michelin. Bridgestone said they did not want to increase their supply to any more than the teams they already had, that meant not supplying Rossi or Yamaha. What happened after that is a matter of debate, ask Jumkie he seems sure he's got the situation sussed. But Rossi showed up in 08 with fancy tyres, despite all that had gone on before.



Now if i understand you are saying that despite Yamaha's loyalties to Michelin and what Bridgestone had publically said about not wanting to supply more teams or riders, Rossi was free of any personal obligation. So he made a deal with Bridgestone who were preapred to make an exception to their previous statement because Rossi is worth suplying, and then convinced Yamaha and JB to divide their team (which they were reluctant to do) in order to win? Yes?

Mental Anarchist said:

Are you sure about this? When Hayden left Honda for Ducati Michelin were no longer in the series as it was a spec tyre.

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Maybe he still had a personal contract with them at that time then. im going from vague memory here but i do remember questions being asked about Hayden in regards to Michelin.

When during the 08 season did nicky sign for ducati and when did it become common knowledge that there would be a single tyre rule the following season ?

chopperman said:

Maybe he still had a personal contract with them at that time then. im going from vague memory here but i do remember questions being asked about Hayden in regards to Michelin.

When during the 08 season did nicky sign for ducati and when did it become common knowledge that there would be a single tyre rule the following season ?

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That sounds familiar to me too, but i think there was talk of HRC Repsol switching tyres with Gresini in 08 and of course, Nicky was closer to Michelin than Dani was so that might have been a talking point. Does that jog anything? Because like you i am working from vague memories?

J4rn0 said:

If skill is the only advantage Stoner had in 2007 (and I agree he is the fastest rider on most tracks) how could he lose it in 2008?



Ah wait, it was because Rossi-the-cheater managed to get the same tires Stoner already had, by issuing an ultimatum to Dorna, Bridgestone, MSMA, and God Himself. Yamaha also was blackmailed into making a faster bike for him. Then he used unfair aggressive racing in Laguna, the ........



But now he's paying for all his sins, you can rejoice

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No, Rossi had an unfair advantage in 2008 because he is the best racer on the planet. Keep up mate!



I love the politics of MotoGP. I find it a huge spectator sport. What I find really interesting is that so many people seem to deny it exists or that Rossi has played it as hard as he plays on the track. I believe it is a huge part of the game. It has to be a huge part of the game because the bike that the rider throws their leg over is as much a result of the politics as it is the development. I also think that politics is the reason that Stoner is so fast on what ever he is handed and is less concerned about the set up or the development than others. Why? Because he has had no one playing politics for him his whole career, except for Puig in the early days, and he has not been able to play the politics himself. So the only way he has got to where he is today is because he has been able to get on anything and be fast.



The European guys have had a different upbringing. They learn how to play the offtrack game from a young age and the ones who do it well or have someone powerful backing them make it to the top. They are not necessarily the best riders but in classes where there is a clear difference in performance between the top bikes and the lesser bikes like 250 and 125's they can run at the front ahead of guys with more talent.



Lets face it, Rossi is a genius on and off the track. That off track genius has allowed him to secure top equipment throughout most of his career. That top equipment has contributed to his success. It is not the reason for his success but it is a contributing element.

chopperman said:

Stoner had an advantage but i don't think it was unfair. It was an advantage for him and him alone. He had the tyres right at a time when the Michelin's were really not getting their act together. He had a bike that was a bit of a handful and a rocket ship down the straight. The advantage was he jelled with it so nicely. pretty lucky as he had zero influence in its development but hey theat racing prototypes

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If things went very right for him in 2007 as they obviously did, which btw is very necessary to beat valentino rossi as even rossi's detractors would have to admit, he had almost comically bad luck in 2008 and 2009, where a trivial by most motogp standards fall reactivated an old injury which should have been healed (not that this is what cost him that championship), and the lactose intolerance thing which if the cause of his health issues in 2009 was rather prosaic.



I do also think that admirable though ducati's technical achievement was against the japanese titans in 2007 it did leave them with some belief that they had the key to the motogp thing for good. Next year will be revelatory of where stoner stands as he is starting with a bike that already looks good; if he falls off the honda repetitively next year even I will have trouble coming up with excuses.

Tom said:

I'd forgotten about that add!! Dual action, Dual compound!! YESSSSSSS



But seriously, Lorenzo was a 250cc rider until then end of 2007, he was riding Dunlops. When he came to Yamaha he would ride whatever tyre that team was contracted to, which was Michelin. Bridgestone said they did not want to increase their supply to any more than the teams they already had, that meant not supplying Rossi or Yamaha. What happened after that is a matter of debate, ask Jumkie he seems sure he's got the situation sussed. But Rossi showed up in 08 with fancy tyres, despite all that had gone on before.



Now if i understand you are saying that despite Yamaha's loyalties to Michelin and what Bridgestone had publically said about not wanting to supply more teams or riders, Rossi was free of any personal obligation. So he made a deal with Bridgestone who were preapred to make an exception to their previous statement because Rossi is worth suplying, and then convinced Yamaha and JB to divide their team (which they were reluctant to do) in order to win? Yes?

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Yes, in part. I will also speculate that Dorna encouraged Rossi to do this as a cloak and dagger way of getting Michelin out of the series pathing the way for the single tyre rule. I will also speculate that Bridgstone were in on it with Dorna and despite what they were saying about not being able to supply more riders and wanting competition, they had a deal with dorna on the quiet. This was just a smoke screen. I dont believe Rossi would have had anything to do with dorna's back room dealing, he was just after the best equipment he could get his hands on.

J4rn0 said:

No need of getting upset. You insist on quoting words. Fine. I said that words are unimportant. I maintain that what decided who leaves and who goes at Yamaha have always been only the results on the track. Here Rossi simply states his point of view about what yamaha should do. To construe that as an ultimatum and consequently assuming that because such 'ultimatum' did not work then he lost face and had to leave, is a movie not reality.



Reality is that he had to leave because he lost to Lorenzo, not because he said those things and Yamaha did not oblige, and so his face was lost. Yamaha would have obliged, had he won again in 2010. But having lost, it was unimaginable that he stays at Yamaha at the side of a Lorenzo World Champion, in a de facto position of rider # 2. I think you can see this, if you look beyond words.

Peace, it's not so important anyway.

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Not really angry. Just wanted you to answer my freakin' question.



Saying words are not important is a suitable sentiment if you're debating with the New York Language School Poets

- but our purposes words are important. They are the vehicle by which we convey intent.



Rossi said Yamaha had to make a choice. They chose to keep both riders. Rossi left anyhow.

Why? Because those were his terms. He insisted Yamaha choose one or the other and when

they would not comply - he exited stage left.



What is so terrible about being the #2 rider - if not the loss of face? Has it not been stated time and again

that the most important person to beat is one's teammate? Certainly no-one believes that Rossi was

going to receive inferior support in 2011 as a result of Lorenzo's championship.



Will you not concede that to be beaten by Lorenzo on the bike that Rossi has proclaimed as "his baby"

had to be humiliating? Rossi is a god on a bike - but lets face it - he's not an egoless zen master.

As Jum has said - connect the dots; there is no way that Rossi could swallow his pride and be number two

- so he made what at present appears to have been rash decision.



Your implication here is that those who represent my point of view on this are being melodramatic.

But look at the facts. Rossi left Yamaha and the bike he developed - to ride the idiosyncratic,

career-killing Ducati, in what will be his seniormost year in racing, while injured no less. That's

a pretty drastic, dare I say dramatic turn of events. The spurned lover metaphor seems

very much apropos.

chopperman said:

Yes, in part. I will also speculate that Dorna encouraged Rossi to do this as a cloak and dagger way of getting Michelin out of the series pathing the way for the single tyre rule. I will also speculate that Bridgstone were in on it with Dorna and despite what they were saying about not being able to supply more riders and wanting competition, they had a deal with dorna on the quiet. This was just a smoke screen. I dont believe Rossi would have had anything to do with dorna's back room dealing, he was just after the best equipment he could get his hands on.

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I was just about to say your version of the story sounded like the most plausible series of events for those not interested in conspiracy theories, but now its as clouded as Jumkie's version

Talpa said:

This is certainly not worth the effort, but here goes anyway.



Firstly, Arrab is in a different league to you.......simple enough.



So now your saying that others could also get the overnight specials, an 'exclusive agreement' ....

.... mate you are full of ...., only if they PAYED for them???? Wow never heard that one before, you've always stated to only Rossi was privy to these!! Now Kropos hammered your theory your on the back pedal with new imaginative ...............as usual.

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If i show u ive said this before, will u promise to leave the site? Otherwise this discussion ends. Bottomline, this is fact. The only argument against the SNS was Rog saying it was a risk to use, but never denied, as u do. So, if i search my own quote of saying that SNS wer offered to others, while some others paid, will u leave the forum? Otherwise do not discuss this topic, u r equal to supershit, and for same reason i dont debate him, id no longer debate u.