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JohnnyKnockdown said:

The shame in his whole career was seeing him leave Ducati. I think in a legacy standpoint it really worked against him. Going to Honda was the easy choice where it was expected that he win a championship. Seeing him win multiple times on an unwinnable bike would leave no argument for his all time greatness.
I still believe that he had an advantage in 07 due to tires and a transition year where Honda out engineered itself. Not to saying anyone would have won on the Duc because I don't believe that but it seemed a match made in heaven for Stoner and he took full advantage of it.
He walked away from two great challenges. Staying and winning on a Ducati that was deficient to Honda and Yamaha and leaving before Marquez got a go at him.
As much as Rossi is villified for his Ducati tenure, I think some credit is due that he had the balls to make a decision that very well could have ( and did ) impact him negatively. Casey always chose the route of upward mobility and limited risk. Not that that's a bad thing. Most people would do the same.
Before the Stoner police get out their truncheons and send me away on trumped up charges, I am not criticizing Stoner. I am lamenting about what could have been had he stayed on the Ducati.

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But it took Stoner leaving Ducati, and rossi trundling around on the Duc for the thickhead part of fandomn to see that the Ducati was a dificult machine to ride. Even after every other rider failed on it. Rossi fell victim of his fans myth and decided he was better than those whod failed ...... even thought he was better than Stoner

Even up to the minute Stoner left, thickheads ( the chief of whom is rossi ) were claiming that Stoner was being a slacker and that the Duc should be winning. Rossi ate the worlds biggest humble pie over that one

When Stoner waltzed to the 2011 wc ....... the humble pie got even bigger.

Yeah sure ..... you would have loved Stoner to stay on the duc ...... and rossi to have never gone there ...... but reality had to be faced .....

Moreover - it's absurd to say Stoner walked away from a challenge. He acknowledged how stressful it was for him to ride that pig to the top of the podium. How is there any shame in the best rider riding the best machine? If he'd stayed on the Duc, he would have burned out. What could have been? That would have been a broken Stoner.

Keshav said:

..... What could have been? That would have been a broken Stoner.

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He was already broken, in my opinion. He was very careful not to insult Ducati, while he was still there, but he made it clear that they did not listen to his input. And that he was at the mercy of whatever came from the factory. Then he and the race team had to adapt. The record shows that things were going south and gaining negative momentum. Between his illnesses (lactose and pump) and the declining bike, I think the Honda deal was a miracle save for him.

I am just sorry things happened the way they did and he didn't get all the wins that he should have had at Honda (Simoncelli race, etc) and didn't get the repeat Championship. He was still the fastest guy out there the second year. The Ducati deal was what it was, and I don't think anything could have changed that, obviously, since Rossi (an Italian) did even worse.

BarryMachine said:

But it took Stoner leaving Ducati, and rossi trundling around on the Duc for the thickhead part of fandomn to see that the Ducati was a dificult machine to ride. Even after every other rider failed on it. Rossi fell victim of his fans myth and decided he was better than those whod failed ...... even thought he was better than Stoner

Even up to the minute Stoner left, thickheads ( the chief of whom is rossi ) were claiming that Stoner was being a slacker and that the Duc should be winning. Rossi ate the worlds biggest humble pie over that one

When Stoner waltzed to the 2011 wc ....... the humble pie got even bigger.

Yeah sure ..... you would have loved Stoner to stay on the duc ...... and rossi to have never gone there ...... but reality had to be faced .....

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I think it would have eventually quite apparent that the Duc was a steaming pile. Add up the number of times it has been on the podium over the last decade.
If it smells like rotten vegamite and tastes like rotten vegamite ( is that an oxymoron?) than it is rotten vegamite. You couldn't hide that forever

JohnnyKnockdown said:

The shame in his whole career was seeing him leave Ducati. I think in a legacy standpoint it really worked against him. Going to Honda was the easy choice where it was expected that he win a championship. Seeing him win multiple times on an unwinnable bike would leave no argument for his all time greatness.
I still believe that he had an advantage in 07 due to tires and a transition year where Honda out engineered itself. Not to saying anyone would have won on the Duc because I don't believe that but it seemed a match made in heaven for Stoner and he took full advantage of it.
He walked away from two great challenges. Staying and winning on a Ducati that was deficient to Honda and Yamaha and leaving before Marquez got a go at him.
As much as Rossi is villified for his Ducati tenure, I think some credit is due that he had the balls to make a decision that very well could have ( and did ) impact him negatively. Casey always chose the route of upward mobility and limited risk. Not that that's a bad thing. Most people would do the same.
Before the Stoner police get out their truncheons and send me away on trumped up charges, I am not criticizing Stoner. I am lamenting about what could have been had he stayed on the Ducati.

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These are the double standards that really annoy people. I don't give two ..... about Stoner versus Rossi. But when you say Stoner leaving Ducati is him running away from a challange, but Rossi gets credit for "having the balls to go to Ducati" it really smacks of double standards. 4 years on a pig (including winning his last race) is a lot bigger challenge than 2 years of having every resource Ducati has at your disposal and failing miserably.

You also have a dig saying going to Honda is the easy option, dogging out by leaving Ducati. Well, did Rossi dog it when he went to Yamaha. You said Stoner should have stayed at Ducati, then Rossi should have stayed as well. I haven't seen you condemn Rossi for not staying at Ducati. By your assertation, you would have much prefered to see Rossi stay at Ducati, riding it until he retires. I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be watching hom now if he did stay, but he's the gretest ever for still racing, even though he left Ducati. Surely he should be judged by the same standard. At least Stoner tried 100% every single time he threw a leg over the Ducati, somethings which cannot be said about Rossi, who admitted not trying in 2012.

Iamapony said:

He was already broken, in my opinion. He was very careful not to insult Ducati, while he was still there, but he made it clear that they did not listen to his input. And that he was at the mercy of whatever came from the factory. Then he and the race team had to adapt. The record shows that things were going south and gaining negative momentum. Between his illnesses (lactose and pump) and the declining bike, I think the Honda deal was a miracle save for him.

I am just sorry things happened the way they did and he didn't get all the wins that he should have had at Honda (Simoncelli race, etc) and didn't get the repeat Championship. He was still the fastest guy out there the second year. The Ducati deal was what it was, and I don't think anything could have changed that, obviously, since Rossi (an Italian) did even worse.

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At risk of offending MDub by commenting on Stoner, he didn't bail on Ducati, they bailed on him, the reptilian Marlboro guy currently running the Ferrari F1 team being a major player in all that. If you read his autobiography he says he regarded Ducati as family and would have stayed had they supported him, and their attitude to him during his travails in 2009 was a major factor in his disillusionment with the sport.

JohnnyKnockdown said:

He walked away from two great challenges. Staying and winning on a Ducati that was deficient to Honda and Yamaha and leaving before Marquez got a go at him.
.

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Just on this often made comment, one must remember that Marquez only got the Repsol ride because of Stoner's retirement as at the time, the rookie rule was in place.

Stoner's retirement opened the door for Marquez in the first place BUT it then forced HRC to push for the removal of the rookie rule else Marquez could not have been on a Factory bike.

As such, it is all hypothetical anyway as whether MM could have been the immediate impacting MM whilst on a satellite is an open question

As an aside to the Ducati talk for a moment.

Irrespective to what we feel of CS or Rossi, the fact would seem to be that had Rossi NOT gone to Ducati then I suspect in many ways that we would not be seeing the Ducati of today and we would still not be realising just what CS achieved in his years at Ducati.

Given that Rossi is the benchmark for so many casual observers and that he tried and failed it showed the enormity of that bike and whilst yes, most 'Rossitisti' fans will say it was a different bike, fact is Rossi struggled from day one when it was the same bike.

It was the Rossi failure that forced Ducati to make the changes that we see today as it placed egg on their faces and for mine, it is good to see that Ducati learnt from the mistake

MdubSTYLIE said:

I have another silly question about Zarco. Would his result be as good better or worse on the factory yamaha? I think honda and yamaha are far from sorted which is why we are seeing ducati and and others running up front. Did ducati get better or did the japanese get worse?

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If we talk the 2017 Yamaha I suspect he would be doing no better than Vinales or Rossi as there does seem to be something inherently 'wrong' with the bike in terms of the manner it gets heat to the tyres (based on both Rossi and Vinales statements) but I suspect he would be between them and mixing it.

My real fear for Zarco is that he has been on the receiving end of criticism from Rossi and Vinales this season so my fear is whether he will be able to continue to shine or whether he suffers a 'Spies' type second half

Gaz said:

If we talk the 2017 Yamaha I suspect he would be doing no better than Vinales or Rossi as there does seem to be something inherently 'wrong' with the bike in terms of the manner it gets heat to the tyres (based on both Rossi and Vinales statements) but I suspect he would be between them and mixing it.

My real fear for Zarco is that he has been on the receiving end of criticism from Rossi and Vinales this season so my fear is whether he will be able to continue to shine or whether he suffers a 'Spies' type second half

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Doubt it. Vinales is just better suited to the GP milieu. He grew up traveling the world in Moto 3 and Moto 2 which gives him a huge advantage. That and he didn't bring his best friends from the 4-H Club to run his garage, and doesn't have Aunt May as his manager.

Little Walter said:

Doubt it. Vinales is just better suited to the GP milieu. He grew up traveling the world in Moto 3 and Moto 2 which gives him a huge advantage. That and he didn't bring his best friends from the 4-H Club to run his garage, and doesn't have Aunt May as his manager.

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I meant whether Zarco gets the raw end of the stick - may have worded poorly but responding to a Zarco question and my 'suspicion' is that since the whinging started, his performances have dipped

33 Coupe said:

These are the double standards that really annoy people. I don't give two ..... about Stoner versus Rossi. But when you say Stoner leaving Ducati is him running away from a challange, but Rossi gets credit for "having the balls to go to Ducati" it really smacks of double standards. 4 years on a pig (including winning his last race) is a lot bigger challenge than 2 years of having every resource Ducati has at your disposal and failing miserably.

You also have a dig saying going to Honda is the easy option, dogging out by leaving Ducati. Well, did Rossi dog it when he went to Yamaha. You said Stoner should have stayed at Ducati, then Rossi should have stayed as well. I haven't seen you condemn Rossi for not staying at Ducati. By your assertation, you would have much prefered to see Rossi stay at Ducati, riding it until he retires. I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be watching hom now if he did stay, but he's the gretest ever for still racing, even though he left Ducati. Surely he should be judged by the same standard. At least Stoner tried 100% every single time he threw a leg over the Ducati, somethings which cannot be said about Rossi, who admitted not trying in 2012.

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Im not in any way trying to denigrate Stoner here. When i used the word shame, perhaps it was lost in translation. It's a shame, meaning its a pity. Personally for me I would have been more of a fan of Stoner if he continued to beat the all powerfull and influential Japanese manufacturers with the little boys from Bollogna. I have long contended that there are no aliens, only alien bikes. I enjoy seeing satellite bikes and other manufacturers beat them.
I don't know why Stoner left Duc, I don't think he was running from a challenge, Im saying I would have liked seeing him continue to beat them on what was inferior bike post 2007.
This was not a comparison to Rossi v Stoner. I don't really care for either equally.
From Rossi's personal perspective I maintain that it was not an easy decision to make. Especially coming from Rossi who's big decisions weigh so heavily they tend to turn into book titles. Im sure a lot of it was ego and some really bad advice from Burgess.
Leaving Yam for Duc is a bit like being a CEO of Facebook and leaving for MySpace. You never know, Myspace was big once, It could be again.
I think the same for Lorenzo's defection to Duc. While I think it was a bad move I still respect the balls to put your career and reputation on the line.

Stoner did continue to beat the big 2. He did it for 3 more years after 2007, 13 times to be precise, but it just didn't amount to a title. How much longer did he have to fight with one hand tied behind his back before he was allowed equal status? I too would have liked to see him continue on with Ducati, but I was happy he got the chance to have a crack on the Honda.

He got no respect when he was riding the Ducati, it was always the bike when he won, it was always his fault when it didn't. Remember, Rossi was going to show the world how to win a title undefeated once he got hold of the Ducati. Thats what annoys me personally, no matter what he did or where he went, Stoner always had some limp .... baby slagging off at him. Be it DORKNA, the ....... in the press or the custard cum squad, he was always headed on a hiding to nothing. As much as I didn't want him to retire, I was glad he did, it was eating him up inside.

JohnnyKnockdown said:

Im not in any way trying to denigrate Stoner here. When i used the word shame, perhaps it was lost in translation. It's a shame, meaning its a pity. Personally for me I would have been more of a fan of Stoner if he continued to beat the all powerfull and influential Japanese manufacturers with the little boys from Bollogna. I have long contended that there are no aliens, only alien bikes. I enjoy seeing satellite bikes and other manufacturers beat them.
I don't know why Stoner left Duc, I don't think he was running from a challenge, Im saying I would have liked seeing him continue to beat them on what was inferior bike post 2007.
This was not a comparison to Rossi v Stoner. I don't really care for either equally.
From Rossi's personal perspective I maintain that it was not an easy decision to make. Especially coming from Rossi who's big decisions weigh so heavily they tend to turn into book titles. Im sure a lot of it was ego and some really bad advice from Burgess.
Leaving Yam for Duc is a bit like being a CEO of Facebook and leaving for MySpace. You never know, Myspace was big once, It could be again.
I think the same for Lorenzo's defection to Duc. While I think it was a bad move I still respect the balls to put your career and reputation on the line.

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I do know why he left Ducati, having read his book.

When he was ill in 2009, the Marlboro man decided he was flaky and/or malingering, the general Ducati management if not Ducati Corse bought this narrative, he was pilloried in the world press by his actual employers rather than just the previous usual suspects, and they sought a replacement number 1 rider, reputedly offering Lorenzo twice Stoner's then salary to join them as an initial foray.

michaelm said:

If anything he had to overcome bad luck given his team mate's egregiously stupid take out of him, prior to which he had a comfortable lead.

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(about Nicky's 2006 title) He had bad luck that one time, but overall he was very lucky particularly with Rossi's many unusual issues, as that's the only reason why Rossi didn't win that one by a country mile. He was consistent, I give you that.

Arrabbiata1 said:

His title was considered so fortuitous was even christened 'lucky' because of it.

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He wasn't nicknamed "lucky" for winning it, but for managing to stay on the bike the many times he "should" have crashed. He was a sort of motorcycling James Hunt on stereoids, even involved in organised drug crime and who knows what else. Still alive though. So he wasn't lucky in the way Nicky was, and in the end Nicky wasn't lucky in the way Lucky has been.

Gaz said:

It is actually quite difficult to judge a rider like Dani (and most factory riders) against others purely because the others are not on the same equipment.

Yes, Dani has been head and shoulders above many, but that many have not had the full resources of HRC behind them and so have had to make do with reduced resources.

The real question (that applies to all factory riders) is how much is the team versus how much is the talent?

Yes, they are all supremely talented (and I rate Dani) but what could he do at MarcVDS on Tito's machine and what could Tito do at Repsol HRC ?

Or more relative, swap Cal and Dani and see the results.

All hypothesis as we will never know but makes a good discussion

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Nah, Dani was far better than Dovi on the Honda for example, who was far better than Cal on the Ducati. I see no evidence to suggest anyone could do as well as Dani on that Honda, let alone better than him, apart from a Stoner comeback. I would have liked to see Dani on a factory Yamaha, he would have been very fast in one of those.

33 Coupe said:

These are the double standards that really annoy people. I don't give two ..... about Stoner versus Rossi. But when you say Stoner leaving Ducati is him running away from a challange, but Rossi gets credit for "having the balls to go to Ducati" it really smacks of double standards. 4 years on a pig (including winning his last race) is a lot bigger challenge than 2 years of having every resource Ducati has at your disposal and failing miserably.

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Yours are the double standards. Rossi left championship winning bikes in two ocassions to join lesser bikes. He went to Yamaha while completely dominating the sport with the Honda, to ride a bike that hadn't even been on the podium the year before. He went to Ducati while riding clearly the best bike, despite the high risk of the move. I can't remember Stoner ever switching to a lesser bike.

The Worst said:

(about Nicky's 2006 title) He had bad luck that one time, but overall he was very lucky particularly with Rossi's many unusual issues, as that's the only reason why Rossi didn't win that one by a country mile. He was consistent, I give you that.



I can't remember Stoner ever switching to a lesser bike.

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Rossi was the 2 times defending champion as a factory Yamaha rider and renowned for his development skills. If his bike was suboptimal that was his and Yamaha's problem/deficiency, and of no relevance at all to Nicky, particularly since he had pretty much expressly dismissed Nicky as a threat when he made the move from Honda. Nicky also was far from the main priority of his own team, and certainly was not supported by his team mate as has been said. Even so the eventual margin by which Rossi lost could have been exceeded by the simple expedient of beating Toni Elias in one single race, the only time Elias ever received the Michelin race day specials always available to Rossi as it happens. Rossi also crashed out of the last race with the title still well in play.

Your colours are now clear btw if that was ever in doubt. Please carry on, we have been missing being trolled by Rossi fans.

michaelm said:

Rossi was the 2 times defending champion as a factory Yamaha rider and renowned for his development skills. If his bike was suboptimal that was his and Yamaha's problem/deficiency, and of no relevance at all to Nicky, particularly since he had pretty much expressly dismissed Nicky as a threat when he made the move from Honda. Nicky also was far from the main priority of his own team, and certainly was not supported by his team mate as has been said. Even so the eventual margin by which Rossi lost could have been exceeded by the simple expedient of beating Toni Elias in one single race, the only time Elias ever received the Michelin race day specials always available to Rossi as it happens. Rossi also crashed out of the last race with the title still well in play.

Your colours are now clear btw if that was ever in doubt. Please carry on, we have been missing being trolled by Rossi fans.

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Your colours, as well as your ignorance, is very clear too! The Michelin A rated tyres were available to all factory supported riders, not just to Rossi. Of course non-factory riders would do better with them, as Elias did on that ocassion, but that wasn't Rossi's fault.

Nicky's title with only 2 race wins belongs to the one hit wonder group with the likes of Criville and Roberts Jr.

The Worst said:

Your colours, as well as your ignorance, is very clear too! The Michelin A rated tyres were available to all factory supported riders, not just to Rossi. Of course non-factory riders would do better with them, as Elias did on that ocassion, but that wasn't Rossi's fault.

Nicky's title with only 2 race wins belongs to the one hit wonder group with the likes of Criville and Roberts Jr.

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Of course I know to which teams the SNS tires were made available. My whole point was that Rossi had a full factory Yamaha, pretty much as the sole factory rider actually with Edwards there as a tire development mule and to aid Rossi's race strategy, so complaints about him having equipment deficiencies are rather lame.

I have no problem with acknowledging Rossi's tremendous carreer achievements and give him full credit for any and all of his titles. I don't however accept the attempts by his partisans to award titles to him which he didn't win, and Nicky won that 2006 title fair and square.

The Worst said:

(about Nicky's 2006 title) He had bad luck that one time, but overall he was very lucky particularly with Rossi's many unusual issues, as that's the only reason why Rossi didn't win that one by a country mile. He was consistent, I give you that.
.

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He was very "lucky"....Honda sabotaged his championship at every possible opportunity. Get educated... the 'Worst'. It's a ....... miracle Rossi hasn't won every "championship" since. I won't call you ignorant. No, I won't.

The Worst said:

(Nah, Dani was far better than Dovi on the Honda for example, who was far better than Cal on the Ducati. I see no evidence to suggest anyone could do as well as Dani on that Honda, let alone better than him, apart from a Stoner comeback. I would have liked to see Dani on a factory Yamaha, he would have been very fast in one of those.

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On the Honda that was clearly built with Dani in mind, Dani was better than Dovi, yes certainly agree, but Dovi of today I am not so sure as he is a far better rider than he was in the Honda days. Perhaps a little battle with the Ducati has helped Dovi or (as I suspect), a longer time in the game has allowed him to hone the skills in a particular way that only the last few years have the rewards been reaped.

As for Cal, again we cannot compare as they have never been on the same equipment with the same support base (my take, Dani is the better but Cal is not to be underestimated in much the same was that Cal today is a better rider than Cal on the Ducati). However, when Cal was head to head with Dovi, it was Dovi's second year on the Ducati versus Cal's first. In 2014 Cal had 1 podium whereas Dovi had 2 but in Dovi's first year on the Duke he had 0 podiums so one could argue that first year, Cal out performed Dovi's first year, although Dovi showed the consistency of finishing by producing near double the points, whilst Cal, well was Cal.

As for Pedro on the Yamaha I am not so sure as the Yamaha seems to be a more 'ride on rails' and precise bike where the HRC machines that Dani has grown up with are a little more unruly, wild type of machines and personally, when he rides in that manner is generally when he does well. Thus for me, the precision of the Yamaha may not suit him at all, just as in some cases a person will gel with machine A which then gets another team interested on machine B so they switch, and end up wishing that they had not.

But my point still stands that comparisons are fraught with he (She) that had the opportunities not available to others is often more able to produce results thus making them seem superior.