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Nonsense.



I liked Nicky, but that title was as lucky as it gets.

How so? Capirossi having the crash admittedly not of his own causation? I have my doubts he would have sealed the deal.

As has been said he rode a very consistent and basically mistake free season, in one of the most competitive seasons ever with more riders having competitive equipment than in pretty much any other season I can recall. It was a fairly similar season to Rossi's 2015 season, and I for one would have had no trouble acknowledging that title if he had continued in the last 3 races as he had in the season up till then.

If anything he had to overcome bad luck given his team mate's egregiously stupid take out of him, prior to which he had a comfortable lead.
 
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Whoa! I didn't attack you. I was looking through the thread again and saw in your post that you wanted to inspire more discussion to keep things going during the off time, so I thought, OK, I'm game. You have my word, if you really want to outline your heartfelt reasons for disliking Stoner, I say, go with it and I will only give non-insulting replies. You are aware that the only reason the thread has diverted this way is because you keep complaining about the fact that people like to talk about Stoner. You say you're OK with Stoner, it's his fans that bug you. Aside from the fact that they like to bring up a rider they admire, what else do they do that annoys you so much? Of course you can just ignore this if it makes you uncomfortable.

Walter, in case you haven't figured it out, pointing out historical facts as to Stoners domination of Rossi is insulting to a bopper.
 
Walter, in case you haven't figured it out, pointing out historical facts as to Stoners domination of Rossi is insulting to a bopper.

What to do? I made a good faith offer to discuss the matter in a non combative way with no personal nastiness. I've noted a few folks around these parts who when confronted with historical facts and solid reasoning, will suddenly become too gentlemanly or too verklempt to continue the discussion. Dub's certainly no bopper. It's just that he's an original thinker, bursting with "controversial" opinions. :happy:
 
What to do? I made a good faith offer to discuss the matter in a non combative way with no personal nastiness. I've noted a few folks around these parts who when confronted with historical facts and solid reasoning, will suddenly become too gentlemanly or too verklempt to continue the discussion. Dub's certainly no bopper. It's just that he's an original thinker, bursting with "controversial" opinions. :happy:

Thanks for that. I wouldn't mind possibly having the debate in the future. Maybe I'll start a thread with a disclaimer that if you are easily offended by differing opinions of Casey than this thread is not for you but for now I'd prefer to leave it be.
 
Actually I don't want Pedrosa to ever win a title at this point because I'm of the mind that if he couldn't get it done when he had a favorable bike, he has no business ever winning a title. I am not into sympathy titles, ?
Hell, Honda built the 800 specifically for him, with no intention of building it for Nicky, whether Hayden had a 'ship or not. The Hondas have been diminutive ever since Pedrosa hit the team. And Dani crashed himself out of a championship hunt.

He has become too comfortable touring around in an also ran position by himself. And I have seen his also ran fanny for a decade. Isn't that enough? This is why I want to see someone else.

Zarco please! Or Petrucci.
See, this is why I was worried that Zarco signed too soon. HOWEVER, he is no punk kid, either and a guaranteed MotoGP salary for next year, might have looked like a pretty canary in the hand, rather than those bush warbles.

I started to post about Hayden's ZOOG 'ship, but michaelm covered it well enough, so I am just quoting him. Let us not forget that JLo won a ship by finishing second all year long. In hindsight, it was a rather impressive way to win a championship.
How so? Capirossi having the crash admittedly not of his own causation? I have my doubts he would have sealed the deal.

As has been said he rode a very consistent and basically mistake free season, in one of the most competitive seasons ever with more riders having competitive equipment than pretty much any other season I can recall. It was a fairly similar season to Rossi's 2015 season, and I for one would have had no trouble acknowledging that title if he had continued on the last 3 races as he had in the season up till then.

If anything he had to overcome bad luck given his team mate's egregiously stupid take out of him, prior to which he had a comfortable lead.
 
Hell, Honda built the 800 specifically for him, with no intention of building it for Nicky, whether Hayden had a 'ship or not. The Hondas have been diminutive ever since Pedrosa hit the team. And Dani crashed himself out of a championship hunt.

My all-time favorite memory is watching the Ducati 800 blow that pocketbike right off the track at Losail. Still makes me snicker thinking about how Honda must have been so certain building a pint-sized RCV for the midget would give him a title, only to watch Stoner look like he turned on afterburners and walk away from that thing.
 
My all-time favorite memory is watching the Ducati 800 blow that pocketbike right off the track at Losail. Still makes me snicker thinking about how Honda must have been so certain building a pint-sized RCV for the midget would give him a title, only to watch Stoner look like he turned on afterburners and walk away from that thing.

That was a mad fabulous moment. :cool:
 
Hell, Honda built the 800 specifically for him, with no intention of building it for Nicky, whether Hayden had a 'ship or not. The Hondas have been diminutive ever since Pedrosa hit the team. And Dani crashed himself out of a championship hunt.

He has become too comfortable touring around in an also ran position by himself. And I have seen his also ran fanny for a decade. Isn't that enough? This is why I want to see someone else.


See, this is why I was worried that Zarco signed too soon. HOWEVER, he is no punk kid, either and a guaranteed MotoGP salary for next year, might have looked like a pretty canary in the hand, rather than those bush warbles.

I started to post about Hayden's ZOOG 'ship, but michaelm covered it well enough, so I am just quoting him. Let us not forget that JLo won a ship by finishing second all year long. In hindsight, it was a rather impressive way to win a championship.

Zarco's not as clearly brilliant as Marquez was in his first year. There's always an element of calculated risk in hiring the next world beater. One of the things that make so many sports fun to watch. I really think he'll do better than any of Rossi's former teammates, Lorenzo not included. I think the days of safe choices like Edwards, or Spies may be over for the big companies. Stoner, and to a lesser extent, Lorenzo have set a higher bar paving the way for Marquez and future Marquezs.
 
Greats create there own luck. I have been trying to remember that quote all morning. I strongly believe that. Luck is partially instinct. I like this debate. Dovi would have out preformed Pedro every year had he remained on honda. I'd say his best shot would have been '12. I think he would have been a contender for sure. Barry contender there? Am I using the word correctly?

I have always looked at the 'greats make their own luck' quotation in combination with the 'years of hard work and tears to get this far' quote as well.

You do not get luck, without having experienced bad luck first as how you bounce back from the bad luck can determine the future as if you shrug it off, move on and take the future challenges than good luck will befall you, but the more you sit, procrastinate and look for reasons, the more likely you are to become focused on that which cannot change.

IMO here but in 2006 Nicky had both and they evened themselves out ....

As for Dovi, I disagree as personally I do not think he would have won with HRC although I do feel he would not have had to wait so long for his second race win.

To me, the Ducati has really made Dovi in the last two years (he looked super competitive last year but for dare I say it - bad luck), and this year we see the gelling. No disrespect at all to Dovi in saying that but to me, he looks a far better rider today than he did in 2011.


Yamaha is going to have a ..... of a decision to make if HRC decides to go after Zarco next year. Do you cut Rossi to put Zarco next to Vinales, or do you just keep going with Rossi if he wants to ride another two years?

Silly question but why Zarco?

IMO here but the tension in the Yamaha garage and the two large egos may see Vinales move - let us not count that out (this is all hypothetical of course) but at the same time, Zarco will be hot property and will likely attract plenty of offers if he is allowed to continue at the rate he has shown



What new talent, for years Dani has been head and shoulders above anyone other than the usual suspects. Nothing to do with his passport.

Have said this before and will say again.

It is actually quite difficult to judge a rider like Dani (and most factory riders) against others purely because the others are not on the same equipment.

Yes, Dani has been head and shoulders above many, but that many have not had the full resources of HRC behind them and so have had to make do with reduced resources.

The real question (that applies to all factory riders) is how much is the team versus how much is the talent?

Yes, they are all supremely talented (and I rate Dani) but what could he do at MarcVDS on Tito's machine and what could Tito do at Repsol HRC ?

Or more relative, swap Cal and Dani and see the results.

All hypothesis as we will never know but makes a good discussion
 
My all-time favorite memory is watching the Ducati 800 blow that pocketbike right off the track at Losail. Still makes me snicker thinking about how Honda must have been so certain building a pint-sized RCV for the midget would give him a title, only to watch Stoner look like he turned on afterburners and walk away from that thing.

You and i both know that wasn't Stoner but that the bike rode itself :p
 
You do not get luck, without having experienced bad luck first as how you bounce back from the bad luck can determine the future as if you shrug it off, move on and take the future challenges than good luck will befall you, but the more you sit, procrastinate and look for reasons, the more likely you are to become focused on that which cannot change.

This sounds like a fortune from a really big fortune cookie
 
This sounds like a fortune from a really big fortune cookie

Nope (although I did paraphrase)

I remember seeing it used in a discussion many years back in a discussion involving two commentators - have a gut feel that one was Barry Sheene so the other was likely 'big' Darryl Eastlake during their GP commentary of years back
 
You and i both know that wasn't Stoner but that the bike rode itself :p
To be really honest, it was the Ducati that race. The bike was, I don't know, 25kph faster than everyone else. It was ridiculous. That race helped mislead a lot of people into giving Ducati all the credit for 2007. Hell, I was fooled for a long time, until I learned the truth about the electronics and Stoner intentionally NOT using the traction control. I had an epiphany late in 2007, and became a Kangaroo groupie. I sent Casey an email proposal of marriage, but alas he was already smitten with someone else. His lose.

Zarco:
Everyone is clear that Zarco signed a deal with Tech Three for next year, right? I don't know what it would cost someone else to buy that contract, but it makes Zarco more expensive than normal. I think he would need a few more podiums to actually be signed away at this point.
 
To be really honest, it was the Ducati that race. The bike was, I don't know, 25kph faster than everyone else. It was ridiculous. That race helped mislead a lot of people into giving Ducati all the credit for 2007. Hell, I was fooled for a long time, until I learned the truth about the electronics and Stoner intentionally NOT using the traction control. I had an epiphany late in 2007, and became a Kangaroo groupie. I sent Casey an email proposal of marriage, but alas he was already smitten with someone else. His lose.

Yep it had a top speed advantage but Capirossi never used it fully where Stoner was able to get the drive out of the turns to achieve the result.

Without CS, there was no Ducati win.

As for the marriage proposal, no offence, but he won from that I suspect

Zarco:
Everyone is clear that Zarco signed a deal with Tech Three for next year, right? I don't know what it would cost someone else to buy that contract, but it makes Zarco more expensive than normal. I think he would need a few more podiums to actually be signed away at this point.

I suspect most are talking 2019 as near all of these top guys have contracts until the end of 2018 - which means the silly season next year will be interesting
 
I have always looked at the 'greats make their own luck' quotation in combination with the 'years of hard work and tears to get this far' quote as well.

You do not get luck, without having experienced bad luck first as how you bounce back from the bad luck can determine the future as if you shrug it off, move on and take the future challenges than good luck will befall you, but the more you sit, procrastinate and look for reasons, the more likely you are to become focused on that which cannot change.

IMO here but in 2006 Nicky had both and they evened themselves out ....

As for Dovi, I disagree as personally I do not think he would have won with HRC although I do feel he would not have had to wait so long for his second race win.

To me, the Ducati has really made Dovi in the last two years (he looked super competitive last year but for dare I say it - bad luck), and this year we see the gelling. No disrespect at all to Dovi in saying that but to me, he looks a far better rider today than he did in 2011.


Silly question but why Zarco?

Exactly Gaz shrug it off and always learn from it. There is always something to learn when something unlucky happens.

Dovi ha some tracks he did well at last year remaining. He's still in a great position. I think Dovi has just been becoming a better rider over time. I have to believe he'd be doing better on the Honda than the ducati had he been given this entire time.

I have another silly question about Zarco. Would his result be as good better or worse on the factory yamaha? I think honda and yamaha are far from sorted which is why we are seeing ducati and and others running up front. Did ducati get better or did the japanese get worse?
 
My vote is that Zarco's results would be better on the full factory. I will give him a minimum of two more podiums. I base that on Vinales' success this year, and that he rides a softer front tire, so the change in tires isn't quite as critical for Zarco.

Edit: I replaced "his" with "Zarco's" so that it would be clear to other readers what I was talking about. It's nice to converse like we are all in a pub together, but sometimes I need to remember that people are just reading these things from afar, and don't know that I am not Adriana Stoner.
 
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As for Dovi, I disagree as personally I do not think he would have won with HRC although I do feel he would not have had to wait so long for his second race win.


All hypothesis as we will never know but makes a good discussion

My contention, as it were, is that if Dovi weren't in the position of having to move from one make to another and one crew to another, he'd have had a contiguous relationship with the engineers and the crew etc. allowing him to more quickly improve as a rider. Learning to work around the idiosycrasies of the Ducati while the engineers were constantly throwing new technologies and new parts so the bike could become the bike it is now in 2017 has to have been a daunting undertaking.
 
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To be really honest, it was the Ducati that race. The bike was, I don't know, 25kph faster than everyone else. It was ridiculous. That race helped mislead a lot of people into giving Ducati all the credit for 2007. Hell, I was fooled for a long time, until I learned the truth about the electronics and Stoner intentionally NOT using the traction control. I had an epiphany late in 2007, and became a Kangaroo groupie. I sent Casey an email proposal of marriage, but alas he was already smitten with someone else. His lose.

Zarco:
Everyone is clear that Zarco signed a deal with Tech Three for next year, right? I don't know what it would cost someone else to buy that contract, but it makes Zarco more expensive than normal. I think he would need a few more podiums to actually be signed away at this point.

The shame in his whole career was seeing him leave Ducati. I think in a legacy standpoint it really worked against him. Going to Honda was the easy choice where it was expected that he win a championship. Seeing him win multiple times on an unwinnable bike would leave no argument for his all time greatness.
I still believe that he had an advantage in 07 due to tires and a transition year where Honda out engineered itself. Not to saying anyone would have won on the Duc because I don't believe that but it seemed a match made in heaven for Stoner and he took full advantage of it.
He walked away from two great challenges. Staying and winning on a Ducati that was deficient to Honda and Yamaha and leaving before Marquez got a go at him.
As much as Rossi is villified for his Ducati tenure, I think some credit is due that he had the balls to make a decision that very well could have ( and did ) impact him negatively. Casey always chose the route of upward mobility and limited risk. Not that that's a bad thing. Most people would do the same.
Before the Stoner police get out their truncheons and send me away on trumped up charges, I am not criticizing Stoner. I am lamenting about what could have been had he stayed on the Ducati.
 

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