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MdubSTYLIE · Jul 14, 2017

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Little Walter · Jul 14, 2017

JPSLotus said:
Actually I don't want Pedrosa to ever win a title at this point because I'm of the mind that if he couldn't get it done when he had a favorable bike, he has no business ever winning a title. I am not into sympathy titles, and I am going to remain consistent on this issue because Dorna has been trying to get Rossi his 8th title purely as a sympathy title. So I remain vehemently opposed to any such thing for any rider as if you apply it to one, you have to start applying it to how many other riders? Why not just rescind Kevin Schwantz's 1993 title and give it to Wayne Rainey on account of his leading the championship at the time his spinal cord was severed out of sympathy?

I wouldn't begrudge him a championship. Talent being the number one factor in the winning of championships is a given. But luck has always been a factor. I think luck was a big factor in Hayden's 2006 championship. I've never questioned Dani's talent. He's just, unluckily, too damned small. If not for being taken down by other riders on several occasions he might well have won a championship. I get that people are impatient with him because he's not been able to close the deal after all these years, but I don't hold it against him. He's trying his best, never giving up and nobody should be faulted for that. I fault Repsol for not replacing him with a more capable rider. I fully expect if they'd kept Dovi and dumped Dani, that Dovisioso would have won a championship by now.

MadMax · Jul 14, 2017

Little Walter said:
I fully expect if they'd kept Dovi and dumped Dani, that Dovisioso would have won a championship by now.

What year do you think that would have happened?

JPSLotus · Jul 14, 2017

Little Walter said:
I wouldn't begrudge him a championship. Talent being the number one factor in the winning of championships is a given. But luck has always been a factor. I think luck was a big factor in Hayden's 2006 championship. I've never questioned Dani's talent. He's just, unluckily, too damned small. If not for being taken down by other riders on several occasions he might well have won a championship. I get that people are impatient with him because he's not been able to close the deal after all these years, but I don't hold it against him. He's trying his best, never giving up and nobody should be faulted for that. I fault Repsol for not replacing him with a more capable rider. I fully expect if they'd kept Dovi and dumped Dani, that Dovisioso would have won a championship by now.

I disagree strongly about Dovi having won a championship by now had he remained at HRC. He would have been run over by Marquez had they cut Pedrosa lose in 2011/2012. Lorenzo would still have won the 2012 title, and in 2013, MM was coming too strong. I really think 2013 was an incredible performance from Marc, yes he needed a couple of breaks to go his way near the midpoint of the season, but he rode beyond what you could have ever expected out of any rookie.

I've long been a believer that the greats create their own "luck", and Pedrosa was never able to do that when he needed to. Marquez is the living, walking, and breathing example of a rider who can take even the most adverse situation and turn it into a positive for him. Look at Assen with the front wheel slide coming into the final chicane. Aside from how ridiculous it was to watch happen, it's a good example of how he can create something out of seemingly nothing. Another good example was at Indy in 2013 once he took the lead...I think he was going into turn 5, he had a massive moment when he was sliding the bike through the apex, the rear started to swing around on him, and he completely saves it and then powerslides all the way around to turn 6. Luck perhaps, but the larger the sample size has become of MM doing things like this, it's easy to see why he is a great.

Regarding 2006, yes it took Nicky some luck at Valencia to bag the title, but that more than canceled out the unluck of the midget taking him out at Estoril. Nicky rode a nearly perfect season of points scoring finishes in grands prix, and that more than anything is what allowed him to recover from the cataclysm of Estoril. Certainly he needed the luck in Rossi getting a bum tire at Valencia, but to put the title win solely on that is to ignore that he could have probably challenged Troy Bayliss for the outright win if needed to do so. Calling that title lucky is a huge disservice to Nicky IMO because it undermines the consistent performance he churned in over the course of the entire season...something Pedrosa has never been able to do.

MdubSTYLIE · Jul 14, 2017

Greats create there own luck. I have been trying to remember that quote all morning. I strongly believe that. Luck is partially instinct. I like this debate. Dovi would have out preformed Pedro every year had he remained on honda. I'd say his best shot would have been '12. I think he would have been a contender for sure. Barry contender there? Am I using the word correctly?

JPSLotus · Jul 14, 2017

MdubSTYLIE said:
Greats create there own luck. I have been trying to remember that quote all morning. I strongly believe that. Luck is partially instinct. I like this debate. Dovi would have out preformed Pedro every year had he remained on honda. I'd say his best shot would have been '12. I think he would have been a contender for sure. Barry contender there? Am I using the word correctly?

Agreed about luck being partially instinct. What we sometimes call luck is just because the sample size is non-existent so how do you quantify it into a number that doesn't seem astronomical? Easier to call it luck than to say, "Well, that was a 1 in 237,000 chance moment!" or something to that effect.

Dovi got a raw deal at Honda and in hindsight, I wish they would have kept him over Pedrosa. Have never fully understood the fascination HRC has with Pedrosa.

Little Walter · Jul 14, 2017

JPSLotus said:
I disagree strongly about Dovi having won a championship by now had he remained at HRC. He would have been run over by Marquez had they cut Pedrosa lose in 2011/2012. Lorenzo would still have won the 2012 title, and in 2013, MM was coming too strong. I really think 2013 was an incredible performance from Marc, yes he needed a couple of breaks to go his way near the midpoint of the season, but he rode beyond what you could have ever expected out of any rookie.

I've long been a believer that the greats create their own "luck", and Pedrosa was never able to do that when he needed to. Marquez is the living, walking, and breathing example of a rider who can take even the most adverse situation and turn it into a positive for him. Look at Assen with the front wheel slide coming into the final chicane. Aside from how ridiculous it was to watch happen, it's a good example of how he can create something out of seemingly nothing. Another good example was at Indy in 2013 once he took the lead...I think he was going into turn 5, he had a massive moment when he was sliding the bike through the apex, the rear started to swing around on him, and he completely saves it and then powerslides all the way around to turn 6. Luck perhaps, but the larger the sample size has become of MM doing things like this, it's easy to see why he is a great.

Regarding 2006, yes it took Nicky some luck at Valencia to bag the title, but that more than canceled out the unluck of the midget taking him out at Estoril. Nicky rode a nearly perfect season of points scoring finishes in grands prix, and that more than anything is what allowed him to recover from the cataclysm of Estoril. Certainly he needed the luck in Rossi getting a bum tire at Valencia, but to put the title win solely on that is to ignore that he could have probably challenged Troy Bayliss for the outright win if needed to do so. Calling that title lucky is a huge disservice to Nicky IMO because it undermines the consistent performance he churned in over the course of the entire season...something Pedrosa has never been able to do.

Good post. Just to be clear, I don't think the 2006 championship was down to dumb luck, but good fortune was a major player that year. As to Marquez, like Stoner, he's in a class of his own.

michaelm · Jul 14, 2017

JPSLotus said:
I disagree strongly about Dovi having won a championship by now had he remained at HRC. He would have been run over by Marquez had they cut Pedrosa lose in 2011/2012. Lorenzo would still have won the 2012 title, and in 2013, MM was coming too strong. I really think 2013 was an incredible performance from Marc, yes he needed a couple of breaks to go his way near the midpoint of the season, but he rode beyond what you could have ever expected out of any rookie.

I've long been a believer that the greats create their own "luck", and Pedrosa was never able to do that when he needed to. Marquez is the living, walking, and breathing example of a rider who can take even the most adverse situation and turn it into a positive for him. Look at Assen with the front wheel slide coming into the final chicane. Aside from how ridiculous it was to watch happen, it's a good example of how he can create something out of seemingly nothing. Another good example was at Indy in 2013 once he took the lead...I think he was going into turn 5, he had a massive moment when he was sliding the bike through the apex, the rear started to swing around on him, and he completely saves it and then powerslides all the way around to turn 6. Luck perhaps, but the larger the sample size has become of MM doing things like this, it's easy to see why he is a great.

Regarding 2006, yes it took Nicky some luck at Valencia to bag the title, but that more than canceled out the unluck of the midget taking him out at Estoril. Nicky rode a nearly perfect season of points scoring finishes in grands prix, and that more than anything is what allowed him to recover from the cataclysm of Estoril. Certainly he needed the luck in Rossi getting a bum tire at Valencia, but to put the title win solely on that is to ignore that he could have probably challenged Troy Bayliss for the outright win if needed to do so. Calling that title lucky is a huge disservice to Nicky IMO because it undermines the consistent performance he churned in over the course of the entire season...something Pedrosa has never been able to do.

I agree about Valencia 2006. If Nicky had needed to win that race, which he didn't after Rossi crashed out quite early, he quite possibly would have done so.

Keshav · Jul 14, 2017

JPSLotus said:
Agreed about luck being partially instinct. What we sometimes call luck is just because the sample size is non-existent so how do you quantify it into a number that doesn't seem astronomical? Easier to call it luck than to say, "Well, that was a 1 in 237,000 chance moment!" or something to that effect.

Dovi got a raw deal at Honda and in hindsight, I wish they would have kept him over Pedrosa. Have never fully understood the fascination HRC has with Pedrosa.

Pedrosa - Spanish. Simples. Doesn't hurt that he actually has a huge fanbase. But with Marky in the saddle, they can afford to look to the future, by bringing in new talent.

Little Walter · Jul 14, 2017

MadMax said:
What year do you think that would have happened?

2012. It's a what if speculation and in no way implausible.

MadMax · Jul 14, 2017

Little Walter said:
2012. It's a what if speculation and in no way implausible.

Yes, I was just trying to think what year. But that one was up for grabs for sure.

JPSLotus · Jul 14, 2017

michaelm said:
I agree about Valencia 2006. If Nicky had needed to win that race, which he didn't after Rossi crashed out quite early, he quite possibly would have done so.

I'm glad things worked out the way they did at Valencia 2006, less because I wanted to see Rossi lose the title, and more to do with that we got two fantastic outcomes out of the race; Troy Bayliss putting in that stellar ride and then obviously Nicky closing the deal out. The forum members who were at that race probably saw one of the greatest races in the 4-stroke era and are extremely lucky to have experienced that race in the flesh.

JPSLotus · Jul 14, 2017

Keshav said:
Pedrosa - Spanish. Simples. Doesn't hurt that he actually has a huge fanbase. But with Marky in the saddle, they can afford to look to the future, by bringing in new talent.

This is my hope that with Marquez being a Spaniard, they will cut Pedrosa at the end of 2018 since one Spaniard should make Repsol happy enough. I just hope they don't try and put Crutchlow in his place. Would much rather see someone else next to MM assuming there are any good options to be had.

Keshav · Jul 14, 2017

JPSLotus said:
This is my hope that with Marquez being a Spaniard, they will cut Pedrosa at the end of 2018 since one Spaniard should make Repsol happy enough. I just hope they don't try and put Crutchlow in his place. Would much rather see someone else next to MM assuming there are any good options to be had.

Zarco please! Or Petrucci.

JPSLotus · Jul 14, 2017

Keshav said:
Zarco please! Or Petrucci.

Yamaha is going to have a ..... of a decision to make if HRC decides to go after Zarco next year. Do you cut Rossi to put Zarco next to Vinales, or do you just keep going with Rossi if he wants to ride another two years?

Little Walter · Jul 14, 2017

JPSLotus said:
Yamaha is going to have a ..... of a decision to make if HRC decides to go after Zarco next year. Do you cut Rossi to put Zarco next to Vinales, or do you just keep going with Rossi if he wants to ride another two years?

No doubt. Zarco truly seems to have big potential so it'd be really dumb to pass him by. On the other hand, one wonders, what would be the practical effect on Yamaha of Valeban resentment over the dumping of their hero. I'm not as conversant as some on the ins and outs of repercussions to the bottom line over stuff like this. I mean for Dorna, that's clear, but for Yamaha? Guess they'd sell fewer of these.

MadMax · Jul 14, 2017

JPSLotus said:
Yamaha is going to have a ..... of a decision to make if HRC decides to go after Zarco next year. Do you cut Rossi to put Zarco next to Vinales, or do you just keep going with Rossi if he wants to ride another two years?

It won't be difficult for them to decide. They will go with whatever sells more T-Shirts, as usual.

I'd never even thought of Honda going after Zarco. That would be excellent. It would be difficult to lure him with the current Honda though. Fix that ....... bike!!!

Keshav · Jul 14, 2017

JPSLotus said:
Yamaha is going to have a ..... of a decision to make if HRC decides to go after Zarco next year. Do you cut Rossi to put Zarco next to Vinales, or do you just keep going with Rossi if he wants to ride another two years?

I expect it will be an easier decision to make when we see how Vinales fares this year. He's looked strong and then . . . hard to know. Sorry to be Captain Obvious here, but even if say, he comes in 2nd this year that makes Rossi a great teammate as long as he doesn't have another melt-down. Besides the bad publicity falls off him like water off a duck, And apparently, he does a fab job as a PR man. Constructor's Championship points are no doubt a huge point of pride for the Japanese, even if they don't win the championship itself. I don't see Yamaha dumping Rossi anytime soon.

The Worst · Jul 14, 2017

Little Walter said:
I fully expect if they'd kept Dovi and dumped Dani, that Dovisioso would have won a championship by now.

Nonsense.

JPSLotus said:
Calling that title lucky is a huge disservice to Nicky IMO because it undermines the consistent performance he churned in over the course of the entire season...something Pedrosa has never been able to do.

I liked Nicky, but that title was as lucky as it gets.

Keshav said:
Pedrosa - Spanish. Simples. Doesn't hurt that he actually has a huge fanbase. But with Marky in the saddle, they can afford to look to the future, by bringing in new talent.

What new talent, for years Dani has been head and shoulders above anyone other than the usual suspects. Nothing to do with his passport.

JPSLotus said:
Yamaha is going to have a ..... of a decision to make if HRC decides to go after Zarco next year. Do you cut Rossi to put Zarco next to Vinales, or do you just keep going with Rossi if he wants to ride another two years?

If Rossi left I'd get Dani, always thought he'd do well in a Yamaha. Zarco is overrated so MM would probably not veto him as a team mate. But I don't think Rossi is going anywhere, certainly not because Yamaha want to replace him...

Arrabbiata1 · Jul 14, 2017

The Worst said:
Nonsense.

I liked Nicky, but that title was as lucky as it gets.

Do your homework son...

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