Can Ducati get two wins in 2016??

michaelm said:

As I have said before, I don't agree to disagree on this one. MM legally raced VR for position, which by definition he is allowed to do; it is in fact the essence of the sport. If Rossi doesn't like it when it doesn't suit him, tough, particularly after proclaiming this is what he is about for all these years. I don't see how yours, Rossi's , mine or anyone else's perceptions come into it, including RD's perception; they are there to adjudicate on the rules and if necessary enforce the rules, not read minds imo.

If your perception is correct, then VR was slower than MM as well as Lorenzo and Pedrosa and was going to finish 4th, and my "perception" is hence that he maintained 3 points of his championship lead by deliberately riding illegally. He had the options of making a pass stick on MM if he was good enough to do so or accepting that he couldn't, neither of which he took, and imo as I have said what he did gave him his maximum possible advantage from the race.

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One thing that we agree on is that Rossi didn't have what it took to get past Marquez.

Nobody here seems to be asserting that Rossi was anywhere near being competitive enough to win the race, or competitive enough to pass Marquez - so the logical conclusion is, that Marquez had the talent, the set-up and the pace to pass Rossi. Seems like a lot of folks want to have it both ways.

When someone says MM was screwing around with Rossi - folks say "But Rossi was guilty of doing the same to so-and-so".

Yet those selfsame folks will turn around a minute later and say Marquez wasn't doing it. Are we seeing an inconsistency here???

They authoritatively assert that they know for a fact that Rossi has in the past engaged in this behavior - but pooh pooh folks who assert the same for Marquez saying "You can't read his mind; how do you know?"

Another case of people wanting to have their cake and eat it.

The point of racing is to take the best position to be rewarded with the most points. That's racing.

Riding around acting as a mobile chicane for the purposes of revenging an insult by ....... with another rider's head, is not how I define racing.

Sorry - don't mean to be obtuse but I don't get what you mean by maximum possible advantage etc.

Keshav said:

Pretty ironic words for a guy who's avatar shows him with his .... elevated higher than his head.

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I was thinking of you bud. Just thought you might need a place to rest your head when you are tossing salad.

MdubSTYLIE said:

I was thinking of you bud. Just thought you might need a place to rest your head when you are tossing salad.

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You're too kind.

Keshav said:

One thing that we agree on is that Rossi didn't have what it took to get past Marquez.

Nobody here seems to be asserting that Rossi was anywhere near being competitive enough to win the race, or competitive enough to pass Marquez - so the logical conclusion is, that Marquez had the talent, the set-up and the pace to pass Rossi. Seems like a lot of folks want to have it both ways.

When someone says MM was screwing around with Rossi - folks say "But Rossi was guilty of doing the same to so-and-so".

Yet those selfsame folks will turn around a minute later and say Marquez wasn't doing it.

They authoritatively assert that they know for a fact that Rossi has in the past engaged in this behavior - but pooh pooh folks who assert the same for Marquez saying "You can't read his mind; how do you know?"

Another case of people wanting to have their cake and eat it.

The point of racing is to take the best position to be rewarded with the most points. That's racing.

Riding around acting as a mobile chicane for the purposes of revenging an insult by ....... with another rider's head, is not how I define racing.

Sorry - don't mean to be obtuse but I don't get what you mean by maximum possible advantage etc.

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He finished 3rd. He was going to finish 4th if what you say is true. My "perceptions" are that Dani was always going to win this race, and that Jorge was faster then Rossi in every session except for Rossi's last qualifying lap, which shaded Jorge by a vast 0.01 seconds, as well as already having caught and passed him in the race.

There is strong precedent for an almost certainly slower rider doing exactly what MM did, LS 08, and MM may have actually been deliberately emulating that after being fired up by VR. While both riders in that race were in the running for the championship, that doesn't change the legality, as each race is according to the rules its own entity.

michaelm said:

A.He finished 3rd. He was going to finish 4th if what you say is true.

My "perceptions" are that Dani was always going to win this race, and that

B. Jorge was faster then Rossi in every session except for Rossi's last qualifying lap, which shaded Jorge by a vast 0.01 seconds, as well as already having caught and passed him in the race.

There is strong precedent for an almost certainly slower rider doing exactly what MM did, LS 08, and MM may have actually been deliberately emulating that after being fired up by VR.

C. While both riders in that race were in the running for the championship, that doesn't change the legality, as each race is according to the rules its own entity.

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A. Agree

B. Agree

C. As my good friend and attorney Bob Oldshever has said many times, There's more often than not - an enormous gap between what is "Legal" and what is Ethical. There is the law and then there is the spirit of the law.

I don't ever recall a slower rider doing what Marquez was doing. But that IMHO is moot as I don't believe for a second that Marquez was slower in any way except by design. Rossi's been lambasted here by all who are crying out for his blood for producing inferior rides despite having one of the four best bikes; while on the other hand, Marquez's results were increasingly improving over the course of the 2nd half of the season. Once he'd gotten the requested chassis and the electronics sorted out by the Honda crew - he was pretty much back to the form he demonstrated in the previous two championship seasons.

Keshav said:

A. Agree

B. Agree

C. As my good friend and attorney Bob Oldshever has said many times, There's more often than not - an enormous gap between what is "Legal" and what is Ethical. There is the law and then there is the spirit of the law.

I don't ever recall a slower rider doing what Marquez was doing. But that IMHO is moot as I don't believe for a second that Marquez was slower in any way except by design. Rossi's been lambasted here by all who are crying out for his blood for producing inferior rides despite having one of the four best bikes; while on the other hand, Marquez's results were increasingly improving over the course of the 2nd half of the season. Once he'd gotten the requested chassis and the electronics sorted out by the Honda crew - he was pretty much back to the form he demonstrated in the previous two championship seasons.

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As I said, the precedent is LS08, where Stoner was 1.0 second a lap faster in every session except warm-up, and was 0.5 seconds a lap faster in that session. The bikes had different strengths however, and the whole point of Rossi's tactic in that race, which no-one including me and Casey Stoner has called illicit, was not to let Stoner get and stay ahead going into a part of the track which suited his bike, hence VR's desperation at the corkscrew leading to the incident which nearly took them both out and in which he maintained position by leaving the track.

Motegi 2010 as has been said is an example of Rossi racing hard to stay 3rd ahead of Jorge when he was out of the championship and Jorge was leading it, when Jorge may have elected to settle for 4th because he did not wish to risk his championship by being taken out given Rossi had demonstrated he was prepared to race so fiercely to protect 3rd.

On the first occasion Rossi said "that's racing". On the second occasion he said words to the effect that Jorge couldn't expect him to just give up a position, with which Mick Doohan whom you and others have selectively quoted from his recent interview would concur; they were obviously team-mates at the time btw. Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander as they say.

We do have different biases in this, you have posted you were going for Rossi to win his 10th championship as you were obviously very much entitled to do. Whilst I would have been happy to give VR all credit if he had won, I am a strong Jorge fan these days and was going for him, and was incensed at Rossi apparently wanting to introduce a new rule concerning riders other than Jorge not being able to race him late season; cf the title of the article with the recent Mick Doohan interview from which you have quoted him "It's all ........".

michaelm said:

As I said, the precedent is LS08, where Stoner was 1.0 second a lap faster in every session except warm-up, and was 0.5 seconds a lap faster in that session. The bikes had different strengths however, and the whole point of Rossi's tactic in that race, which no-one including me and Casey Stoner has called illicit, was not to let Stoner get and stay ahead going into a part of the track which suited his bike, hence VR's desperation at the corkscrew leading to the incident which nearly took them both out and in which he maintained position by leaving the track.

Motegi 2010 as has been said is an example of Rossi racing hard to stay 3rd ahead of Jorge when he was out of the championship and Jorge was leading it, when Jorge may have elected to settle for 4th because he did not wish to risk his championship by being taken out given Rossi had demonstrated he was prepared to race so fiercely to protect 3rd.

On the first occasion Rossi said "that's racing". On the second occasion he said words to the effect that Jorge couldn't expect him to just give up a position, with which Mick Doohan whom you and others have selectively quoted from his recent interview would concur; they were obviously team-mates at the time btw. Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander as they say.

We do have different biases in this, you have posted you were going for Rossi to win his 10th championship as you were obviously very much entitled to do. Whilst I would have been happy to give VR all credit if he had won, I am a strong Jorge fan these days and was going for him, and was incensed at Rossi apparently wanting to introduce a new rule concerning riders other than Jorge not being able to race him late season; cf the title of the article with the recent Mick Doohan interview from which you have quoted him "It's all ........".

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Ahhh.... it all comes back to me. And I remember how everybody (other than the Boppers of course) were pissing and moaning about Rossi riding like an ....... out of pure desperation.

Again... only my humble opinion, but I don't think the two incidents are strictly speaking analogous. Stoner was as I recall pretty much running rings around Rossi; and at the time, despite Stoner being the better rider, Rossi was still at his peak as a rider.

However I do take your point. There are parallels.

However I think what sets them apart is that Rossi had motivation to block Stoner as he was racing Stoner for the championship at LS - whereas, Marquez IMHO was just being a fly in the ointment for the sake of a grudge. Whether that's a meritorious distinction - may be for the Gods to say. I'm no ethics scholar.

Keshav said:

Ahhh.... it all comes back to me. And I remember how everybody (other than the Boppers of course) were pissing and moaning about Rossi riding like an ....... out of pure desperation.

Again... only my humble opinion, but I don't think the two incidents are strictly speaking analogous. Stoner was as I recall pretty much running rings around Rossi; and at the time, despite Stoner being the better rider, Rossi was still at his peak as a rider.

However I do take your point. There are parallels.

However I think what sets them apart is that Rossi had motivation to block Stoner as he was racing Stoner for the championship at LS - whereas, Marquez IMHO was just being a fly in the ointment for the sake of a grudge. Whether that's a meritorious distinction - may be for the Gods to say. I'm no ethics scholar.

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That was my whole point, as far as the rules go the championship situation is irrelevant to individual races which are entities in themselves. If I was to speculate myself a possible "perception" of the Sepang race is that MM raced VR at PI with no intention of favouring either title contender by his own lights, and was vilified and had his reputation smeared, probably permanently, by VR anyway and decided to race him as hard as he could legally in the next race should the circumstances arise, and not any harder than Rossi himself has done previously after which VR has derided rivals for complaining.

Motegi 2010 also occurred anyway, and while Jorge admittedly had a much more secure championship lead then on the other hand VR was actually his team-mate at the time and until a championship is actually clinched any rider is always one fall away from not winning the title, as Mick Doohan demonstrated in 1992. I had no problem with VR racing Jorge as he did in that race before the recent imbroglio btw; however imo as well as 22's, VR can't have it both ways.

Mike, a couple things for perspective, Laguna is a small narrow short track (I think at the time only Sachensring shorter). So in regards to LS08, for Casey to be near sec faster a lap was a lifetime (its harder to make up such vast time the shorter the distance, and so forth) indicating just how dominant Stoner's pace was and should offer a clue as to how extreme/aggressive this disruptive 'slowing' tactic by VR had to be. That tactic wasn't something Rossi thought about on the fly either, but sometime surely schemed up probably Friday... (as opposed to Thursday, see next paragraph).

Again, for Sepang, I believe the perspective is completely ... backwards, while most of the blind world is looking at Rossi racing for position in its 'purest sense'--that is trying to get ahead in good faith; while those same people view Marquez actively trying to 'slow' Rossi down, its the other way around. The ONLY reason it's perceived this way is because of this tainted perspective Rossi himself introduced to the general audience. Its like noise. Turn down the volume and consider: 1. Which of the two is known to employ Machiavellian strategy? 2. Which of the two needed more (motivated) to slow the other down? 3. Which of the two was more desperate to use all his experience to stay ahead of the other?

The picture emerges which it seems 99.99% of the audience has missed! Its a cookbook! (That's a Twilight Zone reference btw).

Keshav said:

C. As my good friend and attorney Bob Oldshever has said many times, There's more often than not - an enormous gap between what is "Legal" and what is Ethical. There is the law and then there is the spirit of the law.

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Haha, like an attorney would know anything about ethics

And I'll add that there is nothing ethical about motorsports sadly...

Jumkie said:

Mike, a couple things for perspective, Laguna is a small narrow short track (I think at the time only Sachensring shorter). So in regards to LS08, for Casey to be near sec faster a lap was a lifetime (its harder to make up such vast time the shorter the distance, and so forth) indicating just how dominant Stoner's pace was and should offer a clue as to how extreme/aggressive this disruptive 'slowing' tactic by VR had to be. That tactic wasn't something Rossi thought about on the fly either, but sometime surely schemed up probably Friday... (as opposed to Thursday, see next paragraph).

Again, for Sepang, I believe the perspective is completely ... backwards, while most of the blind world is looking at Rossi racing for position in its 'purest sense'--that is trying to get ahead in good faith; while those same people view Marquez actively trying to 'slow' Rossi down, its the other way around. The ONLY reason it's perceived this way is because of this tainted perspective Rossi himself introduced to the general audience. Its like noise. Turn down the volume and consider: 1. Which of the two is known to employ Machiavellian strategy? 2. Which of the two needed more (motivated) to slow the other down? 3. Which of the two was more desperate to use all his experience to stay ahead of the other?

The picture emerges which it seems 99.99% of the audience has missed! Its a cookbook! (That's a Twilight Zone reference btw).

Click to expand...

Sure, my point about Sepang was a subsidiary one, MM had a history all season of bike problems early race with a full fuel load, mostly running wide late season (as he did at PI which allowed Rossi to pass him as it happens), after crashing out on multiple occasions earlier in the season when he ignored this and pushed too hard. At PI after Rossi passed him he came back late race and beat both Rossi and Lorenzo. What I was saying is that MM was not obliged to follow that strategy in every race, and his actions at Sepang are entirely consistent with him deciding, his determination perhaps increased by his vilification post the PI race, not to let any pass from Rossi stick and to immediately re-pass, the strategy Rossi has followed (and for which he has been much acclaimed) for most of his career. Even if MM had done a Petrucci and let VR past I can't see any evidence that the championship result would have been different.

As we both know, the whole argument (such as it is) is that it is different because it is Rossi, and he so wants a 10th title and it would be so wonderful for him to achieve this. Unfortunately for VR's fans, Jorge was not in on that deal and understandably keen for his 5th title himself. Requirements for MM were apparently diametrically opposite at Valencia than they were at Sepang, even though Rossi contrived to somehow have MM spoken to by RD for racing legally as RD themselves found.

Perhaps Rossi really is vulnerable to pressure in a close title battle, since he now seems to have cracked both times he was involved in a championship which came down to the wire. Even before the last 3 races he made a tactical error in the dry-wet race that MM won in which JL crashed; he stayed out too long , and was reliant on Jorge making an error, since if Jorge had settled for 3rd as he should have Valentino likely wouldn't have had any lead to play with.

And now for something completely different...













Snapped this pic at a thai friend's biker wedding...

michaelm said:

As I said, the precedent is LS08, where Stoner was 1.0 second a lap faster in every session except warm-up, and was 0.5 seconds a lap faster in that session. The bikes had different strengths however, and the whole point of Rossi's tactic in that race, which no-one including me and Casey Stoner has called illicit, was not to let Stoner get and stay ahead going into a part of the track which suited his bike, hence VR's desperation at the corkscrew leading to the incident which nearly took them both out and in which he maintained position by leaving the track.

Motegi 2010 as has been said is an example of Rossi racing hard to stay 3rd ahead of Jorge when he was out of the championship and Jorge was leading it, when Jorge may have elected to settle for 4th because he did not wish to risk his championship by being taken out given Rossi had demonstrated he was prepared to race so fiercely to protect 3rd.

On the first occasion Rossi said "that's racing". On the second occasion he said words to the effect that Jorge couldn't expect him to just give up a position, with which Mick Doohan whom you and others have selectively quoted from his recent interview would concur; they were obviously team-mates at the time btw. Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander as they say.

We do have different biases in this, you have posted you were going for Rossi to win his 10th championship as you were obviously very much entitled to do. Whilst I would have been happy to give VR all credit if he had won, I am a strong Jorge fan these days and was going for him, and was incensed at Rossi apparently wanting to introduce a new rule concerning riders other than Jorge not being able to race him late season; cf the title of the article with the recent Mick Doohan interview from which you have quoted him "It's all ........".

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The first time it was obvious to me Rossi liked to 'play' with his opposition during the race was actually 2002 I believe the Assen race where he played cat and mouse with Barros, only he had a 990 V5 vs Barros on a privateer 500cc. It was no contest. Rossi was much faster on the straights, it was obvious he rolled off the throttle early to keep behind Barros. Then with a few laps to go Rossi suddenly finds about a second a lap to easily win the race. Nothing wrong with it I suppose, Doohan would have likely tried to win the race by 10 seconds so Rossi's style was certainly more entertaining for the masses. The question I have for the "ethics" brigade is why was ok then but not now, just because Rossi was condending the championship riders are not allowed to employ legitimate race tactics?

Let's summarize, if the positions were reversed, Rossi had played with a title contending Marquez, would there be mention of this new term racing "ethics" or would there be the usual praise for Rossi? And in any case as Jumkie pointed out the Sepang race 50% of the passes were by Rossi, why is it assumed he wasn't playing with Marquez, trying to imtimidate him. To me it's obvious going back to Aragon Rossi is the instigator of his own problems with other riders who finally are no longer intimidated by him and obviously judging by Pedro, Iannone and Marquez refuse to concede position to him so he can cruise to the championship. The common denominator is always Rossi, not Marquez.

Jumkie said:

Mike, a couple things for perspective, Laguna is a small narrow short track (I think at the time only Sachensring shorter). So in regards to LS08, for Casey to be near sec faster a lap was a lifetime (its harder to make up such vast time the shorter the distance, and so forth) indicating just how dominant Stoner's pace was and should offer a clue as to how extreme/aggressive this disruptive 'slowing' tactic by VR had to be. That tactic wasn't something Rossi thought about on the fly either, but sometime surely schemed up probably Friday... (as opposed to Thursday, see next paragraph).

Again, for Sepang, I believe the perspective is completely ... backwards, while most of the blind world is looking at Rossi racing for position in its 'purest sense'--that is trying to get ahead in good faith; while those same people view Marquez actively trying to 'slow' Rossi down, its the other way around. The ONLY reason it's perceived this way is because of this tainted perspective Rossi himself introduced to the general audience. Its like noise. Turn down the volume and consider: 1. Which of the two is known to employ Machiavellian strategy? 2. Which of the two needed more (motivated) to slow the other down? 3. Which of the two was more desperate to use all his experience to stay ahead of the other?

The picture emerges which it seems 99.99% of the audience has missed! Its a cookbook! (That's a Twilight Zone reference btw).

Click to expand...

Forgive me for replying (not really) but honestly I don't think you give people any credit for being able to have perceptions of their own. People on racing forums were asserting that MM was screwing with Rossi WHILE the race itself was occurring live on TV. Rossi may be Svengali to the custard zombies - but he doesn't exert Jedi mind control over 99% of the race watching public.

Ive speculated on this for years but after reading this thread I think its safe to assume Keshav is mentally ill

JohnnyKnockdown said:

Ive speculated on this for years but after reading this thread I think its safe to assume Keshav is mentally ill

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Thank you for your analysis Doctor Knockdown. Be sure to send your bill to Jumkie.

Even your only buddies Migs and Mick cant defend you anymore. A number of us have publicly asked you to cease replying to us and you continue to carry on as if these multiple requests were never made. By doing this youve made it clear who is the instigator. Do as you like. I think its funny watching you bury yourself. You are now the old man on the park bench muttering nonsense that noone pays attention to

JohnnyKnockdown said:

Even your only buddies Migs and Mick cant defend you anymore. A number of us have publicly asked you to cease replying to us and you continue to carry on as if these multiple requests were never made. By doing this youve made it clear who is the instigator. Do as you like. I think its funny watching you bury yourself. You are now the old man on the park bench muttering nonsense that noone pays attention to

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That is based on the false assumption that I ever needed anyone to "defend me". This is a public forum - and as such there are no royalty here who are immune to counterpoint or a gentle chiding. This isn't Saudi Arabia where voicing an opinion opposite of those who see themselves as too special to be contradicted is a crime against the crown. We don't behead people on Powerslide for having the temerity to contradict. BTW who is the Noone you keep speaking of? Are you talking about the guy from Herman's Hermits?

I think it's funny that you still haven't caught on that nothing you say can dispirit me and that while I go on having perfectly civil dialogs with all the other people who are on this forum - that you continue to labor under the delusion that the ill will radiating from 4 or 5 people constitutes the majority opinion of the forum, which outnumbers you many times over. You continue to cling to the concept of PS being a playground where tiny number of guys can bully and intimidate anyone who doesn't want to play by your rules.

Keshav said:

Rossi may be Svengali to the custard zombies - but he doesn't exert Jedi mind control over 99% of the race watching public.

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But ..................

It is as simple (to me) as he threw a thought out there and those with Rossi sympathies (and there are a lot who want/wanted him to get Championship #10) will lean towards his version of events, thus they then believe that (in this case) MM was screwing with Rossi during the race.

I will go as far as to say that IF (that word again), nothing was said at the Press conference than that 99% you mention would have seen a good battle.

Gaz,

Philip Island 2015--spirited overtaking, overwhelming reaction: THRILLING

Sepang 2015--spirited overtaking, overwhelming reaction: DUBIOUS

Same ...., diametrically opposing reaction. Why? Facts or perception?


Find me a person who thought Phillip Island 15 was DUBIOUS before Thursday's Sepang press conference. One, only one person.

The power of suggestion on perception!