Who thinks Rossi will retire at the end of 2012?

J4rn0 said:

Or the more aggressive power delivery that went with it?

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My impression was that with the lower displacement and less fuel, you had a bike that was less aggressive on the gas; since Capirossi's high-corner-speed-250cc days were long past him, it could have been a change that was hard to make. But his results weren't too bad, with a few podiums and a win in 2007.



But the Ducati did not stay the same (the chassis got worse), and the Japanese didn't either (they got pneumatic valves and Bridgestones), which is why Stoner's results degraded as well.



I would be willing to believe Rossi has been given a bum bike, but when he's too slow for Barbera, that explanation is too simple.

J4rn0 said:

Was it just the smaller capacity of the engine? Or the more aggressive power delivery that went with it? Capirossi could ride it fine in 2006; but he couldn't in 2007. Did he grow old in one year? They thought so, apparently, sacked him and hired Melandri who was younger. But...!

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J4rn0 said:

Yes. They thought they had found the magic key to taming a no-compromise engine with electronics, rather than curbing its power, and it took them years to realize that most of those 'electronics' were actually in Casey's brain.

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I am not sure of the level of the synapses involved in stoner's riding of the ducati, which possibly could have been spinal or peripheral rather than cerebral in location.



As jumkie and others said tyres may have come into it as well; I don't know whether the 2007 bridgestones were different to the 2006 bridgestones, but stoner was reputedly the only one who could ride the 2007 bridgestone hard tyre.



Not at all aimed at you, but whether it was the tyre or the power delivery or both, only stoner could ride it and deserves all credit for being able to do so.

Beef Supreme said:

My impression was that with the lower displacement and less fuel, you had a bike that was less aggressive on the gas; since Capirossi's high-corner-speed-250cc days were long past him, it could have been a change that was hard to make. But his results weren't too bad, with a few podiums and a win in 2007.



But the Ducati did not stay the same (the chassis got worse), and the Japanese didn't either (they got pneumatic valves and Bridgestones), which is why Stoner's results degraded as well.



I would be willing to believe Rossi has been given a bum bike, but when he's too slow for Barbera, that explanation is too simple.

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The bike got bad in 2010, where whatever they did, to the chassis or otherwise, to make the ducati more "generally rideable" produced a bike which not only could only be ridden at a competitive pace by stoner like the previous bikes but was also inherently unstable including for him. The 2008 bike had competitive pace for most of the season, as did the 2009 bike when stoner was healthy. Whether continuing to develop the bike as a "stoner only" bike for 2010 would have kept pace with the hondas and yamahas will now be forever unknown, not that deciding they couldn't be entirely dependent on stoner during his absence in 2009 was unreasonable at the time.

michaelm said:

The bike got bad in 2010, where whatever they did, to the chassis or otherwise, to make the ducati more "generally rideable" produced a bike which not only could only be ridden at a competitive pace by stoner like the previous bikes but was also inherently unstable including for him. The 2008 bike had competitive pace for most of the season, as did the 2009 bike when stoner was healthy. Whether continuing to develop the bike as a "stoner only" bike for 2010 would have kept pace with the hondas and yamahas will now be forever unknown, not that deciding they couldn't be entirely dependent on stoner during his absence in 2009 was unreasonable at the time.

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Big Bang Engine........introduced in 2010- combined with the control rubber-IMO the Duck was ordinary in 09 too after the intro of the Control rubber, obviously in its previous and current 90 degree V4 layout, has proved to be the stumbling block for Ducati as far as Front End stability goes, at least without bespoke rubber that is. There are a lot of theories in regards to gyro force and piston position etc, and how this effects the Duck's front end. Then add on the Engine rule and Carbon Chassis/engine thingy, obviously even now its still the major issue for them as its the last thing left to be altered considerably.......



I don't believe the 2006 Bridgestones were that much different to the 2007 ones, just refined to the point of 'Not going off' over race distance. The biggest change between those years was the tyre supply reg........a reg which no doubt Dorna are regretting today

Talpa said:

Big Bang Engine........introduced in 2010- combined with the control rubber-IMO the Duck was ordinary in 09 too after the intro of the Control rubber, obviously in its previous and current 90 degree V4 layout, has proved to be the stumbling block for Ducati as far as Front End stability goes, at least without bespoke rubber that is. There are a lot of theories in regards to gyro force and piston position etc, and how this effects the Duck's front end. Then add on the Engine rule and Carbon Chassis/engine thingy, obviously even now its still the major issue for them as its the last thing left to be altered considerably.......



I don't believe the 2006 Bridgestones were that much different to the 2007 ones, just refined to the point of 'Not going off' over race distance. The biggest change between those years was the tyre supply reg........a reg which no doubt Dorna are regretting today

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The bridgestones may have gone further towards the conventional bikes in 2010, and ducati definitely started to complain about the tyres in 2011, when the bike was always diabolical as it was in 2010.



I have a different opinion about the 2009 bike than most, although not casey stoner, who always said the bike was fine but the problem was him in 2009, which his win at qatar and 3 late season wins (which could easily have been 4 without the famous sighting lap incident) when he was healthy would seem to support. It was quite possibly a developmental dead-end in terms of utility for other riders though.

michaelm said:

Not at all aimed at you, but whether it was the tyre or the power delivery or both, only stoner could ride it and deserves all credit for being able to do so.

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That is clear; my question is, what changed between 06 and 07 in the transition between 990 and 800, that made the Ducati a bike only Stoner could (effectively) ride? The 90° angle did not change, nor the engine as a stresses chassis member, nor the Bridgestones really, so what was it? A smaller displacement, more peaky screamer engine, basically. At least as far as we know.

The explanations about what went wrong down the line in 08 and 09 and 010 etc., do not explain the sudden change between 06 and 07.

Big Bang and its effect on VSG, thats what stuffed the Ducati!

J4rn0 said:

That is clear; my question is, what changed between 06 and 07 in the transition between 990 and 800, that made the Ducati a bike only Stoner could (effectively) ride? The 90° angle did not change, nor the engine as a stresses chassis member, nor the Bridgestones really, so what was it? A smaller displacement, more peaky screamer engine, basically. At least as far as we know.

The explanations about what went wrong down the line in 08 and 09 and 010 etc., do not explain the sudden change between 06 and 07.

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I agree with you, it was mainly the engine characteristics/power delivery. Valentino himself said from the get-go that the engine in the gp11 was too aggressive/too narrowly focused on ultimate performance.



Whatever stoner did to ride the thing seemed to require the bridestone hard tyre though, on which iirc he had all his dry wins in 2007 and which reputedly only he could ride/get up to operating temperature.

Talpa said:

Big Bang Engine........introduced in 2010-

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Thats not right!?? is it?

BarryMachine said:

Big Bang and its effect on VSG, thats what stuffed the Ducati!

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The 2006 990cc was a big bang, the 2007 800cc was a screamer:

the 990cc wass perfectly rideable for Capirossi, the 800cc wasn't.

Bike achitecture was the same.

J4rn0 said:

That is clear; my question is, what changed between 06 and 07 in the transition between 990 and 800, that made the Ducati a bike only Stoner could (effectively) ride? The 90° angle did not change, nor the engine as a stresses chassis member, nor the Bridgestones really, so what was it? A smaller displacement, more peaky screamer engine, basically. At least as far as we know.

The explanations about what went wrong down the line in 08 and 09 and 010 etc., do not explain the sudden change between 06 and 07.

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The difference is simple and it has nothing to do with the Ducati.



990 era was a point and shoot era of brake hard and late, turn and shoot it down the next section of track. Corner speed was irrelevant almost. This style of riding was easy and the whole field could do it without problem.



800 era had zero point and shoot strategy as it relied almost entirely on corner speed. Riding 800's was very hard and few were able to do it well.



Capirossi could not adapt after 5 years of point and shoot. Just look at the field of riders now. Almost none of the older 990 guys are there because they couldn't adapt so now they are all over racing point and shoot WSBK's.

By golly I loved the sound of the Ducati screamer on track. Spewing they went to big bang when they did.

Mental Anarchist said:

The difference is simple and it has nothing to do with the Ducati.



990 era was a point and shoot era of brake hard and late, turn and shoot it down the next section of track. Corner speed was irrelevant almost. This style of riding was easy and the whole field could do it without problem.



800 era had zero point and shoot strategy as it relied almost entirely on corner speed. Riding 800's was very hard and few were able to do it well.



Capirossi could not adapt after 5 years of point and shoot. Just look at the field of riders now. Almost none of the older 990 guys are there because they couldn't adapt so now they are all over racing point and shoot WSBK's.

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So let me get this straight... Mental, you are stepping out of your Casey love-fest to insinuate that Valentino is the only "older 990 guy" who could adapt to the 800s corner speed riding style. Good on ya mate!



Strange that all those Euro riders who spent 10-15 years riding corner speed only bikes as they graduated through the ranks to MGP would forget that style of riding after 5 years on the "point 'n' shoots"...

Mick D said:

So let me get this straight... Mental, you are stepping out of your Casey love-fest to insinuate that Valentino is the only "older 990 guy" who could adapt to the 800s corner speed riding style. Good on ya mate!



Strange that all those Euro riders who spent 10-15 years riding corner speed only bikes as they graduated through the ranks to MGP would forget that style of riding after 5 years on the "point 'n' shoots"...

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Don't regard stoner as a classic corner speed rider in his premier class career myself, although he devised a method of getting through them with sufficient rapidity on the ducati. Nothing wrong with point and shoot either, as executed by most of the riders I particularly admire.

Mick D said:

So let me get this straight... Mental, you are stepping out of your Casey love-fest to insinuate that Valentino is the only "older 990 guy" who could adapt to the 800s corner speed riding style. Good on ya mate!



Strange that all those Euro riders who spent 10-15 years riding corner speed only bikes as they graduated through the ranks to MGP would forget that style of riding after 5 years on the "point 'n' shoots"...

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Yep Rossi adapted well, what is the problem with me saying that? Name another older 990 guy that did?



Yes it surprises me that those guys failed to adapt. Maybe they just got lazy on the 990's. Maybe they weren't as good as some thought they were (a case I have put forth before). Maybe the 800's were just too hard to ride despite the electronics.



What ever the reason the guys who were somewhat competitive on 990's never did anything on an 800.

Mental Anarchist said:

Yep Rossi adapted well, what is the problem with me saying that? Name another older 990 guy that did?



Yes it surprises me that those guys failed to adapt. Maybe they just got lazy on the 990's. Maybe they weren't as good as some thought they were (a case I have put forth before). Maybe the 800's were just too hard to ride despite the electronics.



What ever the reason the guys who were somewhat competitive on 990's never did anything on an 800.

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Rossi and Pedrosa are two of the most successful 800cc riders, Rossi was the most successful 990cc rider, Pedrosa was the rookie of the year in 2006 on a 990cc and one of the top riders that season........Pedrosa and Rossi both got their ..... handed to them on occasion by Caparossi and even Bayliss in 2006. Funnily enough Pedrosa just handed his teammate his ... a couple of weeks ago.



This is absurd, most of the field today is too young to have competed in the 990 era, so your point is moot and there is extremely strong evidence to the contrary.





Caparossi is the enigma in the transition between the classes, however I put it down to the dawn of modern electronics with the changes to the fuel limit reg, Stoner won a lot of races in 2007 thanks aided by the top speed of the Ducati and his ability to get it off the turns through his rapid adaption to TC.........Point and shoot, in fact it was Yamaha that really turned the tables in the 800cc era with the M1 and corner speed/stability, decimating the field for 3 of the 5 years. Caparossi, IMO didn't ever really adapt to the electronics or the extreme 800 duck, Ducati after just one 800cc season booted their highly successful race winning WC in 2008 believing that their bike was 'el supremo', how wrong they were.........Stoner and Bridgestone were the supreme factors in that relationship

Talpa said:

Rossi and Pedrosa are two of the most successful 800cc riders, Rossi was the most successful 990cc rider, Pedrosa was the rookie of the year in 2006 on a 990cc and one of the top riders that season........Pedrosa and Rossi both got their ..... handed to them on occasion by Caparossi and even Bayliss in 2006. Funnily enough Pedrosa just handed his teammate his ... a couple of weeks ago.



This is absurd, most of the field today is too young to have competed in the 990 era, so your point is moot and there is extremely strong evidence to the contrary.





Caparossi is the enigma in the transition between the classes, however I put it down to the dawn of modern electronics with the changes to the fuel limit reg, Stoner won a lot of races in 2007 thanks aided by the top speed of the Ducati and his ability to get it off the turns through his rapid adaption to TC.........Point and shoot, in fact it was Yamaha that really turned the tables in the 800cc era with the M1 and corner speed/stability, decimating the field for 3 of the 5 years. Caparossi, IMO didn't ever really adapt to the electronics or the extreme 800 duck, Ducati after just one 800cc season booted their highly successful race winning WC in 2008 believing that their bike was 'el supremo', how wrong they were.........Stoner and Bridgestone were the supreme factors in that relationship

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So you are saying I am wrong to begin with and then agreeing with me in closing???????

Mental Anarchist said:

So you are saying I am wrong to begin with and then agreeing with me in closing???????

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Caparossi is one rider......hardly a shining piece of evidence for all competing in the 990 era.......

Mental Anarchist said:

Yep Rossi adapted well, what is the problem with me saying that? Name another older 990 guy that did?



Yes it surprises me that those guys failed to adapt. Maybe they just got lazy on the 990's. Maybe they weren't as good as some thought they were (a case I have put forth before). Maybe the 800's were just too hard to ride despite the electronics.



What ever the reason the guys who were somewhat competitive on 990's never did anything on an 800.

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Look at who was riding in 2006. Which of these guys do you consider "old 990 guys"? Which of those ever had the talent to compete for a championship?

Mental Anarchist said:

The difference is simple and it has nothing to do with the Ducati.



990 era was a point and shoot era of brake hard and late, turn and shoot it down the next section of track. Corner speed was irrelevant almost. This style of riding was easy and the whole field could do it without problem.



800 era had zero point and shoot strategy as it relied almost entirely on corner speed. Riding 800's was very hard and few were able to do it well.



Capirossi could not adapt after 5 years of point and shoot. Just look at the field of riders now. Almost none of the older 990 guys are there because they couldn't adapt so now they are all over racing point and shoot WSBK's.

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That part is very true, remember when Rossi first tested the 1000 he praised it and said he could ride it better because the extra torque allowed him to turn, unlike the 800. Him and Ducati no doubt thought the old point and shoot was going to be making a come back, but Honda and Yamaha then tested their own 1000s and we found out that the Duc was much slower than the rumored lap times of Honda and Yamaha. The good news for them is that the corner speeds have slowed down and taming the engine shouldn't be be to difficult, they just need to make the damn bike somewhat able to turn.