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Who thinks Rossi will retire at the end of 2012?

I don't think it has anything to do with Sepang last year. Motorcycle racing is too tough a business for allowing yourself to become senisitive to stuff like this. This is true for Rossi in particular since he got socialized into MotoGp in the 1990s, were things were a lot more dangerous/tougher than today. He's just not coming to terms with the Duc, like Melandri back then. It's as simple as that.
 
Jumkie said:
Keep ur head up Valentino. Dont listen to ur fans.
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Still a fan mate, still believe they can do much better, but right now the combination is not capable of times to compete in the class, maybe Moto2..........this means there are fundamental flaws-I'm hoping for a miracle, as I have been for 18 months now, Rossi has the talent to produce it, but I'm not sure the partnership has the patience to keep going downhill at this rate......
 
J4rn0 said:
That is clear; my question is, what changed between 06 and 07 in the transition between 990 and 800, that made the Ducati a bike only Stoner could (effectively) ride? The 90° angle did not change, nor the engine as a stresses chassis member, nor the Bridgestones really, so what was it? A smaller displacement, more peaky screamer engine, basically. At least as far as we know.

The explanations about what went wrong down the line in 08 and 09 and 010 etc., do not explain the sudden change between 06 and 07.
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The big change was Magnetti Marelli spending a HUGE amount on engine control systems.



They went from having a 'data guy' in the 990 era with some rudimentary TC, anti-wheelie, etc. to having a full-time engine-management team of two engineers, managing the robot-controlled, fly-by-wire bike. At the time, IIRC ,they (Ohlins) were also working on electronic suspension control, tied into the same GPS-based engine management system that MM had devised.



MM were way ahead in positional engine management - they really thought outside the box and caught Yamaha and Honda on the wrong foot with their multiple-sensor, GPS and accelerometer-based engine mapping.
 
Mick D said:
Strange that all those Euro riders who spent 10-15 years riding corner speed only bikes as they graduated through the ranks to MGP would forget that style of riding after 5 years on the "point 'n' shoots"...
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I agree - I see no evidence that such a thing as "point 'n' shoot" even existed in the 990 era. Lap times didn't dramatically change on moving to 800s, tyres weren't magically more whole at the end of a race, it is, IMHO a myth. Along with the 'Stoner and Hayden git-er-done because they both rode flat-track'.



Myths that grow legs through repeated use are no more factual.



I can go back over hours and hours of 990 footage, at tight tracks such as Jerez and Sachsenring as well as at the likes of Qatar, Catalunya and Mugello and there is no evidence of point and shoot - they are carrying as much corner speed as they can.



Sure, in certain circumstances a rider might perform a block pass (V. Rossi, step forward!) or dive underneath another rider, but that doesn't equate to a point-and-shoot style, like BSB, for example.





If you want proof, look at 1995 footage of Assen and compare it to last year - that is a track that would reward a dive-down-the-inside, stop-and-turn riding style,, which is, after all, what this mythical point-and-shoot is actually describing, but there is no evidence to support it.
 
J4rn0 said:
There is something that doesn't fit with some theories proposed here: Stoner, the most successful 800cc rider, is not a corner speed rider.
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What??? He is the master of high corner speed - along with Lorenzo and Pedrosa and Rossi... I don't know what it is that you think you are seeing, but when Stoner is balancing his act on a constantly tucking-in front tyre, a constantly on-the-go throttle hand, judicious use of rear brake, knee and occasionally elbow, that is because he is cornering as fast as is humanly possible.



When he passes the likes of Rossi, Lorenzo and Pedrosa on the outside of turns, how do you think he is managing that?



Sorry guys, but you are talking ......



That is probably why you can't gel theory with reality - your theory is based on an incorrect premise.
 
BarryMachine said:
The major flaw with that theory is that Stoner is described as incomprehensibly fast into the corners, hence why they "cannot do what Stoner does", and that is the point where they see that he has a big advantage on corner entry. And that only became prevalent in the bigger class because he had the power to do what he does ........ its not so easy to use the torque to let the back loose when it doesn't have the torque in reserve



Cold also explain why Jerez is Stoners voodoo track, its about as point and shoot as they get, and his style is about long flowing fast lines into and out of the corner.
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Nailed it!



Stoner is a traditional 125/250/GP, smooth, flowing, constant-adjusting, rear-wheel-smoking style. He corners faster and brakes deeper than anyone (except Rossi, Pedrosa and Lorenzo - they are equals).



The whole 'point and shoot' argument has zero credibility - there is no evidence. There is evidence, however, of Stoner being a massively accomplished high-speed-corner rider.... here's another example:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfPM77TsGaA



Again, please all those who describe Stoner's riding style as 'point and shoot' explain how it is that he didn't use that style in this race?
 
It was Vitto Guareschi describing Stoner's style as point and shoot, or the closest to a 500 style you could get in the MotoGP era.



But of course you look at a couple of videos and know better than someone who not only has better eyes than you, but sees the telemetry of all corners and all tracks.
<
 
J4rn0 said:
It was Vitto Guareschi describing Stoner's style as point and shoot, or the closest to a 500 style you could get in the MotoGP era.



But of course you look at a couple of videos and know better than someone who not only has better eyes than you, but sees the telemetry of all corners and all tracks.
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Perfectly summed up.
 
J4rn0 said:
It was Vitto Guareschi describing Stoner's style as point and shoot, or the closest to a 500 style you could get in the MotoGP era.
Click to expand...





Everything I have read of Guareschi commenting on Stoner was about masterful throttle control, high corner entry speed, great tyre management.



What Stoner was forced to do on the GP10 to get it to turn, to get heat in the tyres, is not the same as what his natural style is. He's riding the Honda pretty much exactly the same as Pedrosa and Lorenzo ride - heavy braking, high corner entry speed, mid-corner speed. then standing the bike up onto the meat of the contact patch as soon as possible.



I note you don't offer any supportable contradiction except 'Guareschi said so' and some dismissive sarcasm - despite the evidence of Stoner passing, smoothly, other riders that are noted high-corner-speed riders. (Video makes for good evidence, usually... despite your disparaging comment - believe your eyes.).



If I am wrong, I am happy to admit it, but if Guareschi did describe Stoner as having a point and shoot style, he would be the only person ever to voice such an opinion and I would be really keen to read for myself the context of the quote. I can't find it anywhere... care to furnish it?
 
sewarion said:
I don't think it has anything to do with Sepang last year. Motorcycle racing is too tough a business for allowing yourself to become senisitive to stuff like this. This is true for Rossi in particular since he got socialized into MotoGp in the 1990s, were things were a lot more dangerous/tougher than today. He's just not coming to terms with the Duc, like Melandri back then. It's as simple as that.
Click to expand...



I agree with you but that crash will subconsciously take a toll.

Schwantz has admitted that Rainey's crash got to him.
 
sewarion said:
I don't think it has anything to do with Sepang last year. Motorcycle racing is too tough a business for allowing yourself to become senisitive to stuff like this. This is true for Rossi in particular since he got socialized into MotoGp in the 1990s, were things were a lot more dangerous/tougher than today. He's just not coming to terms with the Duc, like Melandri back then. It's as simple as that.
Click to expand...



I'm not sure that is actually the case.
 
mt1960 said:
Everything I have read of Guareschi commenting on Stoner was about masterful throttle control, high corner entry speed, great tyre management.



What Stoner was forced to do on the GP10 to get it to turn, to get heat in the tyres, is not the same as what his natural style is. He's riding the Honda pretty much exactly the same as Pedrosa and Lorenzo ride - heavy braking, high corner entry speed, mid-corner speed. then standing the bike up onto the meat of the contact patch as soon as possible.



I note you don't offer any supportable contradiction except 'Guareschi said so' and some dismissive sarcasm - despite the evidence of Stoner passing, smoothly, other riders that are noted high-corner-speed riders. (Video makes for good evidence, usually... despite your disparaging comment - believe your eyes.).



If I am wrong, I am happy to admit it, but if Guareschi did describe Stoner as having a point and shoot style, he would be the only person ever to voice such an opinion and I would be really keen to read for myself the context of the quote. I can't find it anywhere... care to furnish it?
Click to expand...



Are you the new clown of the block?
 
nomad said:
I am a HUGE fan of Valentine Rossi; I think he is a genius on a motorbike and has managed to be at the top for so many years but I think his passion for the sport isn't the same since his close friend Simoncelli died. Take this weekend, Hayden has outperformed him in all sessions which just shouldn't be happening so personally I think he will hang up his helmet at the end of this year and go rallying. At the end of the day the man has nothing left to prove, he has beaten all the current crop of guys and has entertained all of us for going on 15 years so I for one would be gutted to see him go but also be thankful for all that he has done for the sport. In my eyes he will always be the GOAT.
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In my eyes he will always be the guy who had the best guys around him for a very long time.Not the GOAT.

This season he seems to reason like Capirossi did towards the end at Suzuki.No reason to fight for top 8 or whatever.

However,Burgess 40 minutes to fix the Ducati seems to be long gone,hasn't it?

The tires change,the rules change.IMHO It seems you can't enjoy the luxury to NOT adapt to the bike.Rossi don't have that luxury anymore.With that PERFECT bike to his liking.And has to adapt,which he can't.So...



There's just no way a GOAT would struggle and still be 1 sec.+ behind,nearly every session,racelap,Qualifyinglap,testinglap!

They have had plenty of time to get things right.



I get the feeling he has a contract Rallying or in some other racing already planed for the very near future.

But,he is still under contract,so get a ....... grip will you!!



In short,shop off Stoner's right hand and balls and put them on Rosita!!!

He is embarrasing him self,his team,his legacy,and a brand that tries really hard,from his homecountry!
 
mt1960 said:
Everything I have read of Guareschi commenting on Stoner was about masterful throttle control, high corner entry speed, great tyre management.



What Stoner was forced to do on the GP10 to get it to turn, to get heat in the tyres, is not the same as what his natural style is. He's riding the Honda pretty much exactly the same as Pedrosa and Lorenzo ride - heavy braking, high corner entry speed, mid-corner speed. then standing the bike up onto the meat of the contact patch as soon as possible.



I note you don't offer any supportable contradiction except 'Guareschi said so' and some dismissive sarcasm - despite the evidence of Stoner passing, smoothly, other riders that are noted high-corner-speed riders. (Video makes for good evidence, usually... despite your disparaging comment - believe your eyes.).



If I am wrong, I am happy to admit it, but if Guareschi did describe Stoner as having a point and shoot style, he would be the only person ever to voice such an opinion and I would be really keen to read for myself the context of the quote. I can't find it anywhere... care to furnish it?
Click to expand...



Unless you read Italian, there is an awful lot you cannot read.

If you do, read this -- apart from the Guareschi that I quoted from memory, but was in a paper magazine and not on the internet, you can enjoy what Capirossi (even more authoritative than Guareschi) had to say in 2007: he said his own corner speed was 15 kmh higher than Stoner's on some fast corners (telemetry data), but Stoner thanks to his point and shoot style (point and shoot = "spigolare" in Italian) could open up earlier and exit the corners faster:



[font=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Interviewer: - Però Stoner con questa moto vince e va fortissimo…[/font]

[font=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Capirossi: “[/font]Casey spigola di più in curva e ciò gli permette di scaricare la potenza con la moto semi-dritta. La mia velocità di percorrenza è molto superiore, anche di 15 km/h nelle curve veloci, ma in uscita Stoner si fionda in rettilineo come un proiettile. Facile a dirsi ma difficile da fare. Se ci sono due piloti, devono essere competitivi entrambi: sbagliatissimo pensare che poiché Stoner vince, va bene così[font=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]”.[/font]



[font=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]source: [/font]http://www.motoblog....uto-alla-ducati



Capirossi has always been a very honest guy: he says "Facile a dirsi ma difficile da fare" = "easy to say, but difficult to do".



I could find others like this, but would not bother too much: feel free to do your own homework.
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When I say Stoner is "essentially" a point and shoot rider I mean exactly that: he can ride hooked as well, but that is not his native style, it is something acquired. Essentially, he dives into corners, then picks up the bike earlier and can exit faster than "corner speed" riders.

How do you call that?

His ability to ride the Ducati that way, is what allowed him to win on a bike that has been the grave of several excellent corner speed riders, all 250cc world champions.
 
mt1960 said:
Sorry, not to put too fine a point on it, but you are talking ......



Look at this: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4snkUUolJ0[/media]



Tell me he isn't a 'corner speed' rider - please feel free to explain.
Click to expand...





Re-watch the video and see how much he slides the tire right at the apex. It's smooth but it's not

the ride-on-rails technique of Lorenzo. Watch the 2009 and 2010 races at Philip Island and if you

still think Stoner is strictly a corner speed racer - you're blind or in denial.
 

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