Who thinks Rossi will retire at the end of 2012?

povol said:

Never said it was their main motivation. I said



And their goal is to one day be paid for for doing what they love.



I have no doubt that most athletes love the sport they have chosen to excel in, but saying they dont have dreams of dollar signs if they reach the pinnacle of that sport is naive at best. Why do you think high caliber athletes take out multi million dollar policies while they are still amateurs. Pretty simple, they are thinking about the loss of future income due to career ending injury. Did you know that a projected top 10 pick in the major sports can insure themselves for 5 million dollars through the NCAA, and as much as they want through specialized outside insurance programs. Dont tell me they dont think about the payoff.

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Nobody has said that money is an inconsequential catalyst - only that it is not the prime motivator.

Think back when you were in JR High and playing baseball or football. The thing that really made

you compete harder was the intense desire to beat the other guy(s). That's human nature. Simple really.

Keshav said:

Nobody has said that money is an inconsequential catalyst - only that it is not the prime motivator.

Think back when you were in JR High and playing baseball or football. The thing that really made

you compete harder was the intense desire to beat the other guy(s). That's human nature. Simple really.

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Actually someone did.

Jumkie said:

Some have done this on other bikes (Sus/Kawa), and have left broken. Stoner put his balls on the block as you say, but look how many times he crashed it. Seriously, he was lucky not to get terribly injured. I'm sure you might not accuse the current riders of not riding it to the limit (as Rossi and Burgess did previously) if Casey would have been permanently injured on some freak accident which is possible every single time a rider goes down (most people have not seriously considered this, yet fresh examples are there, see Joan Lascorz). That Casey didn’t get hurt is mere luck not just bravery. These guys are human and despite being brave, the instinct of self-preservation is subconscious, and even then they routinely ignore the nerve tissue's alert of danger. On top of that, of what value would it achieve pushing it to the limit risking injury exceptionally, particular and specifically to the Ducati? Stoner didn’t win titles despite wining races, is that the goal? Sure, watching them push it to the knife-edge would be marvelous, but is it really honorable and more importantly, strategically sound? No. It didn’t make sense for Rossi and Burgess to levy the accusation before, what makes you think levying it now is any more valid?

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I agree. Doesn't make it any less real that the bike isn't being pushed to the limit so we don't know its potential.



Reflect back on Livio's comments last year regarding the effect of one rider doing well on a bike and the other riders automatically improving because of it. I agree with this principle and it is why when a world record is broken in swimming and athletics it becomes easy for others to break the old record.



A big one for me is that Rossi has said he CAN'T. Once this is in your mind and I believe that this has probably been in his mind for close to a year now then it does not matter how good the bike becomes the mind has made up its decision.



In conclusion it is my opinion that Rossi has decided he can't ride it and as lead rider he is having a psychological impact on the other riders.



Now I know you will flame me for daring to guess a riders state of mind but this is what I believe could be happening. Put someone on it who as Krop said, thinks they can be WC and is prepared to lay it on the line to do so and we may see that the bike is in fact very competitive.

Mental Anarchist said:

I agree. Doesn't make it any less real that the bike isn't being pushed to the limit so we don't know its potential.



Reflect back on Livio's comments last year regarding the effect of one rider doing well on a bike and the other riders automatically improving because of it. I agree with this principle and it is why when a world record is broken in swimming and athletics it becomes easy for others to break the old record.



A big one for me is that Rossi has said he CAN'T. Once this is in your mind and I believe that this has probably been in his mind for close to a year now then it does not matter how good the bike becomes the mind has made up its decision.



In conclusion it is my opinion that Rossi has decided he can't ride it and as lead rider he is having a psychological impact on the other riders.



Now I know you will flame me for daring to guess a riders state of mind but this is what I believe could be happening. Put someone on it who as Krop said, thinks they can be WC and is prepared to lay it on the line to do so and we may see that the bike is in fact very competitive.

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I actually had a feeling that lack of success would eventually take its toll on Rossi. KRjr mentioned one's confidence begins to have a bit of self doubt, as we are all human. I also think the guy is still very savvy, and more than most people, tries to manipulate and levy pressure via media effectively on his targets (right or wrong). How much is the latter remains to be seen. I get the feeling its more a combination of both, as historically, the man has dealt with little adversity; notwithstanding, I'm sure, as Kropo proposes, these guys don't see the flaw in themselves, in this case the blame is placed on Ducati (right or wrong).



Anyway, I think its not fair to say the bike isn't being pushed hard enough. After reading KRjrs interview, I had a conversation with a buddy regarding Nicky. I told him my fear for Nicky is that he will take the John Hopkins approach to Ducati and eventually get himself hurt fighting for his place in GP.

Jumkie said:

I actually had a feeling that lack of success would eventually take its toll on Rossi. KRjr mentioned one's confidence begins to have a bit of self doubt, as we are all human. I also think the guy is still very savvy, and more than most people, tries to manipulate and levy pressure via media effectively on his targets (right or wrong). How much is the latter remains to be seen. I get the feeling its more a combination of both, as historically, the man has dealt with little adversity; notwithstanding, I'm sure, as Kropo proposes, these guys don't see the flaw in themselves, in this case the blame is placed on Ducati (right or wrong).



Anyway, I think its not fair to say the bike isn't being pushed hard enough. After reading KRjrs interview, I had a conversation with a buddy regarding Nicky. I told him my fear for Nicky is that he will take the John Hopkins approach to Ducati and eventually get himself hurt fighting for his place in GP.

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I think if the bike was exactly how it is and Rossi was competing at the front then Hayden would be there or just behind to. It is similar to guys doing uncharacteristically well at their home GP. The bike isn't different, the skills aren't different, it is the mental focus that is different. Hayden is constantly hearing that the bike is no good, so subconsciously it has to have an impact as we know that the subconscious mind does not rationalise.



I think Hayden has more potential on the Ducati than Rossi based on riding style and if the circuits had more lefts then he would be killing it!!!!

Mental Anarchist said:

I agree. Doesn't make it any less real that the bike isn't being pushed to the limit so we don't know its potential.



Reflect back on Livio's comments last year regarding the effect of one rider doing well on a bike and the other riders automatically improving because of it. I agree with this principle and it is why when a world record is broken in swimming and athletics it becomes easy for others to break the old record.



A big one for me is that Rossi has said he CAN'T. Once this is in your mind and I believe that this has probably been in his mind for close to a year now then it does not matter how good the bike becomes the mind has made up its decision.



In conclusion it is my opinion that Rossi has decided he can't ride it and as lead rider he is having a psychological impact on the other riders.



Now I know you will flame me for daring to guess a riders state of mind but this is what I believe could be happening. Put someone on it who as Krop said, thinks they can be WC and is prepared to lay it on the line to do so and we may see that the bike is in fact very competitive.

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This argument is fundamentally flawed IMO, against the current might of Honda and Yamaha.



Obviously the most qualified young-up and comers who rode the duck was Casey Stoner, I can't see too many younger riders coming through that would repeat Stoner's efforts on the bike.....which young up and comer do you feel would be able to push the Ducati to victory? and to a state of 'Very competitive' week in-week out-thus having a real shot a the title.....? Right now..... Jorge Lorenzo is probably the most talented younger rider in the field-how would he go on the Ducati? Not too well IMO



That brings me to Stoner's efforts on the bike, the last season he rode it he came 4th-by quite a margin, and crashed out of nearly 1/3 of the seasons races....yes he won a few races-on the edge of crashing several times a lap, IMO-this is not competitive, let alone very competitive-especially considering two of the men that beat Stoner in the title race both had several DNS's......and the man that won the title might as well have been in a different category that year, and at a lot of rounds Stoner was also a mid-pack finisher. So is this how you define competitive? A few wins, a lot of crashes (which as Jum's pointed out, highlight Stoner's luck in not being seriously injured), IMO this is not competitive at all, Stoner saw it that way too-and moved on-the results of this move are now plain for all to see.



Rossi, I believe can push the bike much more, Rossi said he 'can't' ride this Ducati to Victory-which is the goal, at best he can ride it to is 4th or 5th-whilst risking his life at every turn-which is exactly what happened the last time the most qualified younger rider rode the bike.....hardly a serious strategy for becoming competitive for a man who has already competed at the front for 15 years? I for one certainly do not criticize Rossi for taking this stance, for this is not ancient Rome, and I'm hoping that none of us want to see riders seriously injured for our entertainment, or worse still- injured trying to take an uncompetitive bike to the rostrum-when it not possible.



Hayden finished 30 seconds off the pace at Qatar also, this is not competitive, this result may as well have been another category, is Nicky not pushing the bike to its limits? It looks like it to me, and Nicky has been with Ducati since Nov 2008........the goalposts have moved in this game with all of these regs, Ducati have fundamental issues with Engine power delivery and weight distribution, the same two issues they've had for years-and now they have a control tyre which doesn't mask the problems. Why then are Ducati addressing these issues instead of just putting another young rider on factory kit and proving Rossi and Hayden to be chumps......? They are sort of doing that with Hector, and he finished 30 seconds back too......who else can, would and for how long could they maintain highly competitive results riding a Ducati with a strategy of win or bin.........? Casey Stoner? I'm sure he is much happier actually fighting for the title

povol said:

Actually someone did.

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Show me - please.

Talpa said:

This argument is fundamentally flawed IMO, against the current might of Honda and Yamaha.



Obviously the most qualified young-up and comers who rode the duck was Casey Stoner, I can't see too many younger riders coming through that would repeat Stoner's efforts on the bike.....which young up and comer do you feel would be able to push the Ducati to victory? and to a state of 'Very competitive' week in-week out-thus having a real shot a the title.....? Right now..... Jorge Lorenzo is probably the most talented younger rider in the field-how would he go on the Ducati? Not too well IMO



That brings me to Stoner's efforts on the bike, the last season he rode it he came 4th-by quite a margin, and crashed out of nearly 1/3 of the seasons races....yes he won a few races-on the edge of crashing several times a lap, IMO-this is not competitive, let alone very competitive-especially considering two of the men that beat Stoner in the title race both had several DNS's......and the man that won the title might as well have been in a different category that year, and at a lot of rounds Stoner was also a mid-pack finisher. So is this how you define competitive? A few wins, a lot of crashes (which as Jum's pointed out, highlight Stoner's luck in not being seriously injured), IMO this is not competitive at all, Stoner saw it that way too-and moved on-the results of this move are now plain for all to see.



Rossi, I believe can push the bike much more, Rossi said he 'can't' ride this Ducati to Victory-which is the goal, at best he can ride it to is 4th or 5th-whilst risking his life at every turn-which is exactly what happened the last time the most qualified younger rider rode the bike.....hardly a serious strategy for becoming competitive for a man who has already competed at the front for 15 years? I for one certainly do not criticize Rossi for taking this stance, for this is not ancient Rome, and I'm hoping that none of us want to see riders seriously injured for our entertainment, or worse still- injured trying to take an uncompetitive bike to the rostrum-when it not possible.



Hayden finished 30 seconds off the pace at Qatar also, this is not competitive, this result may as well have been another category, is Nicky not pushing the bike to its limits? It looks like it to me, and Nicky has been with Ducati since Nov 2008........the goalposts have moved in this game with all of these regs, Ducati have fundamental issues with Engine power delivery and weight distribution, the same two issues they've had for years-and now they have a control tyre which doesn't mask the problems. Why then are Ducati addressing these issues instead of just putting another young rider on factory kit and proving Rossi and Hayden to be chumps......? They are sort of doing that with Hector, and he finished 30 seconds back too......who else can, would and for how long could they maintain highly competitive results riding a Ducati with a strategy of win or bin.........? Casey Stoner? I'm sure he is much happier actually fighting for the title

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I mostly agree. I don't think jorge lorenzo, and dani pedrosa possibly even more so, would have been happy on the 2007 ducati, let alone its successors on the control tyre. Jorge seems to ride similarly to valentino and is obviously suited similarly by at least 1 bike. I saw a claim (admittedly hearsay based) recently that stoner always found the ducati unpleasant to ride himself, and I think being worn down by the effort of constantly balancing that thing on the edge contributed to his health problems.



The 2010 bike and its 2011 successor were different than their predecessors imo though. The earlier bikes were not fast unless ridden through the corners by stoner's controlled crash method but weren't unstable like the subsequent bikes. I think there has been some revisionism by stoner concerning the 2010 bike, which still had major flaws at the end of 2010 as his crashes in the races other than the ones he won towards the end of the season demonstrated. My personal theory is that he decided to go win it or bin it when dani pedrosa started winning races, as he was concerned about his upcoming status with hrc. This does not change kropotkin's contention with which I agree that rossi and jb assumed the ducati was a potentially winning bike that casey couldn't sort but they would be able to sort.

Euro riders perhaps are lacking the skills to ride the bike as it was designed. Watch MotoGP The Road to Glory which highlights each of the riders upbringing on bikes. All the Euro's profess that pocket bikes are the way and they all rode them from 4.



Talpa, each generation is potential better than the one before so it would be naive to think that someone won't surpass Lorenzo and Stoner just as they did to Rossi and his generation. Pick a decent rider who grew up riding dirt track and give them a shot. Maybe one of them will have the skills and the balls necessary. As you say the goal posts have moved but it is not the goal post you think. It is the rider talent goal posts because Honda and Yamaha have always been the better bikes.

All these considerations are sensible and interesting, but they do not explain why the 990cc Ducati was competitive (and capable of winning races with two different riders none of them called Casey) albeit it had all of the supposed engineering 'flaws' the 800cc bike inherited: 90° L engine with related mass-centralization problems, no real frame, etc. Something happened in 2007, with the switch to 800cc, that made the bike suddenly difficult to ride even for Capirossi, who knew it the best.

Power delivery is the only thing that comes to my mind.

nomad said:

I am a HUGE fan of Valentine Rossi; I think he is a genius on a motorbike and has managed to be at the top for so many years but I think his passion for the sport isn't the same since his close friend Simoncelli died. Take this weekend, Hayden has outperformed him in all sessions which just shouldn't be happening so personally I think he will hang up his helmet at the end of this year and go rallying. At the end of the day the man has nothing left to prove, he has beaten all the current crop of guys and has entertained all of us for going on 15 years so I for one would be gutted to see him go but also be thankful for all that he has done for the sport. In my eyes he will always be the GOAT.

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one man does not make the sport........as in everything a new face will appear and we`ll all talk the same .... again.Enjoy it for what it is ffs !

J4rn0 said:

All these considerations are sensible and interesting, but they do not explain why the 990cc Ducati was competitive (and capable of winning races with two different riders none of them called Casey) albeit it had all of the supposed engineering 'flaws' the 800cc bike inherited: 90° L engine with related mass-centralization problems, no real frame, etc. Something happened in 2007, with the switch to 800cc, that made the bike suddenly difficult to ride even for Capirossi, who knew it the best.

Power delivery is the only thing that comes to my mind.

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I think it is exactly that. The 800cc ducati had extreme engine characteristics which is what gave it the straightline edge. Ducati said in 2007 they did this deliberately, as they thought it was the only way of beating rossi on a conventional good handling bike. When it apparently worked they assumed it was because they were ahead of the game with using electronics to tame such an engine, not realising that stoner whom they had picked up almost by accident had close to a unique skill/riding style/whatever that was also integral to being able to ride the thing even with the advanced (at the time) electronics.

J4rn0 said:

All these considerations are sensible and interesting, but they do not explain why the 990cc Ducati was competitive (and capable of winning races with two different riders none of them called Casey) albeit it had all of the supposed engineering 'flaws' the 800cc bike inherited: 90° L engine with related mass-centralization problems, no real frame, etc. Something happened in 2007, with the switch to 800cc, that made the bike suddenly difficult to ride even for Capirossi, who knew it the best.

Power delivery is the only thing that comes to my mind.

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hmm, maybe the GP6 had all of those problems but the competition wasn't near as good as now. Also, they had Bridgestone and the others doesn't. But I think you're right, I recall Capirossi blaming Ducati about the directions taken with the GP7 and the only things that changed were the engine and the electronics.



Take a look at this:

Capirossi also believes that Ducati technical staff now must look at changing the engine characteristic of the Desmosedici. The triple world champion added: “The chassis is really important but the engine is also. Ducati has put in a lot of effort on the chassis and they need to look at the engine.





"It has enough power but maybe they have to consider changing something. Maybe it is not really friendly and too aggressive and this gives a problem to the chassis.”

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http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/sport/sportresults/MotoGP/2012/April/apr0212-ducati-need-time-they-dont-have-capirossi/



and this:



http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/sport/sportresults/MotoGP/2012/April/apr1712-ducati-make-taming-power-delivery-priority/

michaelm said:

I think it is exactly that. The 800cc ducati had extreme engine characteristics which is what gave it the straightline edge. Ducati said in 2007 they did this deliberately, as they thought it was the only way of beating rossi on a conventional good handling bike. When it apparently worked they assumed it was because they were ahead of the game with using electronics to tame such an engine, not realising that stoner whom they had picked up almost by accident had close to a unique skill/riding style/whatever that was also integral to being able to ride the thing even with the advanced (at the time) electronics.

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Yes. They thought they had found the magic key to taming a no-compromise engine with electronics, rather than curbing its power, and it took them years to realize that most of those 'electronics' were actually in Casey's brain.

J4rn0 said:

Yes. They thought they had found the magic key to taming a no-compromise engine with electronics, rather than curbing its power, and it took them years to realize that most of those 'electronics' were actually in Casey's brain.

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Suppo also realized (before Stoner was signed) that they needed something extra to beat Rossi and that developing the Ducati to Bridgestones was a gamble worth taking; shrewd, in retrospect.



Once Rossi and the rest of the field got Bridgestones, it was a big factor in diminishing Ducati's relative performance.



Edit: apologies, it was Domenicali who admitted it, not Suppo. Fascinating to read that stuff in retrospect...

J4rn0 said:

All these considerations are sensible and interesting, but they do not explain why the 990cc Ducati was competitive (and capable of winning races with two different riders none of them called Casey) albeit it had all of the supposed engineering 'flaws' the 800cc bike inherited: 90° L engine with related mass-centralization problems, no real frame, etc. Something happened in 2007, with the switch to 800cc, that made the bike suddenly difficult to ride even for Capirossi, who knew it the best.

Power delivery is the only thing that comes to my mind.

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Tires.

Jumkie said:

Tires.

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+1 and + Tyre supply reg.......changed the game......dramatically



and 3 or 4 tracks re-surfaced that year also, Bridgestone did their homework, Michelin got spanked

Jumkie said:

Tires.

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How did tires make the Ducati more difficult to ride in 2007, as opposed to 2006?

J4rn0 said:

How did tires make the Ducati more difficult to ride in 2007, as opposed to 2006?

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How do we know the 2007 was more difficult to ride -- because of Capirossi's results? That reminds me of something Rossi said recently about Stoner, that Stoner grew up riding the Ducati. That's not to say there wasn't a substantial learning curve in going from 990 to 800, but it's very possible Capirossi (like Rossi now) may have been too old to make the transition.

Beef Supreme said:

How do we know the 2007 was more difficult to ride -- because of Capirossi's results? That reminds me of something Rossi said recently about Stoner, that Stoner grew up riding the Ducati. That's not to say there wasn't a substantial learning curve in going from 990 to 800, but it's very possible Capirossi (like Rossi now) may have been too old to make the transition.

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Was it just the smaller capacity of the engine? Or the more aggressive power delivery that went with it? Capirossi could ride it fine in 2006; but he couldn't in 2007. Did he grow old in one year? They thought so, apparently, sacked him and hired Melandri who was younger. But...!