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The end of FACTORY racing

levigarrett said:
Do you think there's any chance that Aprilia would be able to compete with Honda if they were forced to comply with the rules as they exist in 2011? If pure prototypes is what you desire, than you should get used to the idea that manufacturers like Aprilia will be absent from the series. Even the mighty BMW would be forced to spend millions upon millions with I suspect little to show for their efforts. The rules as they currently exits prevent competition save those that have proven MotoGP programs with millions to go with....and even in that case (Ducati), occasionally their effort is completely wasted.



It's a rig! A bad one at that. Honda was able to relegate Yamaha to "also ran" status. Ponder that for a second. Where does that leave the rest of the cycle manufacturing world? What we currently have is the "Honda Cup" if you will. If you don't have an RC2XX, you're racing for 4th. I welcome the change. If the new formula needs to be re-worked, I can handle that. What I don't think I can handle is another season of poor competition with a paltry 17 combatants.
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Ok ok if Honda rigged it causing Aprilia, Kawasaki and maybe even Suzuki to all quit then I could be more than a little annoyed. On the other hand, being relegated to also ran status can be good. Dont people greatly admire the theatre 2004 provided? Why. Because it was specifically a man (Rossi) vs an evil empire (Honda Cup RCXXX). He took Yamaha from also ran to what? Stoner did it again. Can you understand what you all want might take that theatre away? Moto2 can never replicate it.
 
birdman said:
There's a bigger picture to this than racing. The 'manufacturers' they hate already spend millions developing road bikes for us the consumers. We benefit, or at least I think I do. Anyone think a 1000cc roadbike is too expensive? Where else can you buy that much performance for $16 k? Its 250 hp and 175 kg! Wow I like manufacturers, engineers and designers a hell of a lot.



What they are doing is letting the '.......' manufacturers spend the millions developing roadbikes that the 'cheap' CRT pretend manufacturers can then steal for free to race against the very same manufacturer that developed it in the first place, now spending more millions developing a prototype? How long can that last.
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The end goal of all of this is to ditch the claiming rule and have bespoke engine manufacturers supplying engines to bespoke chassis manufacturers, all at much lower cost (hence rev limits and spec ECUs). So the manufacturers are irrelevant.



Anyway, go find a graph of sportsbike sales over the past 5 years. Then go ski down it, if you dare. Sportsbikes are already on a 3 instead of 2 year cycle, and changes are becoming smaller and smaller. Spot the difference between a 2011 CBR1000 and a 2012 CBR1000 and it's a few electronics, styling notes and that's about it. There's no money and no future in sportsbikes.
 
levigarrett said:
Do you think there's any chance that Aprilia would be able to compete with Honda if they were forced to comply with the rules as they exist in 2011? If pure prototypes is what you desire, than you should get used to the idea that manufacturers like Aprilia will be absent from the series. Even the mighty BMW would be forced to spend millions upon millions with I suspect little to show for their efforts. The rules as they currently exits prevent competition save those that have proven MotoGP programs with millions to go with....and even in that case (Ducati), occasionally their effort is completely wasted.



It's a rig! A bad one at that. Honda was able to relegate Yamaha to "also ran" status. Ponder that for a second. Where does that leave the rest of the cycle manufacturing world? What we currently have is the "Honda Cup" if you will. If you don't have an RC2XX, you're racing for 4th. I welcome the change. If the new formula needs to be re-worked, I can handle that. What I don't think I can handle is another season of poor competition with a paltry 17 combatants.
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Come on Levi, Honda wins one title in the 800 era and its the Honda cup. Yamaha wins three titles, Ducati wins the other.Was it the Yamaha cup from 2008- 2010. Plus, if you look, there is a Yamaha in 2nd place in the title this year. So far in testing, I have seen no indication that Honda is going to be dominant in 2012. Stoner may be dominant, but i would bet you any amount of money that Honda does not finish 1-2-3 next year
 
Kropotkin said:
Unfortunately, Dorna had a five-year contract with the manufacturers that prevented them from kicking them to the curb until 2012. Right now, I'm not sure whether they've signed a new contract yet, but believe me, Dorna want the factories out.
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Thanks for bringing that up -- it has been something I've thought about often since first reading about it at motomatters months ago, and if the contract isn't renewed, it will be HUGE.



Great part 3, by the way.
 
povol said:
So far in testing, I have seen no indication that Honda is going to be dominant in 2012. Stoner may be dominant, but i would bet you any amount of money that Honda does not finish 1-2-3 next year
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I think it's clear that Honda is setting the bar for technology and spending, and if Yamaha/Lorenzo and Ducati/Rossi want to avoid getting blown into the weeds next year and onwards, they're going to have to spend a lot just to tread water, let alone beat Honda.



That would be the grim scenario without the CRTs, anyway.
 
God forbid someone set a bar for technology in a prototype racing series, what was i thinking. The pervasive "punish success" mindset of todays generation has now filtered itself into the racing world. I guess it was inevitable that someday the pukes who grew up in this social experiment would some day be in charge. I hoped against hope that it would not find its way into something as competitive as bike racing, but obviously that was a pipe dream. Limited configurations, limited revs, spec ecu's, production based engines, spec tires. Can we possibly get further away from what the series was intended to be, and for what, the show, equality. So long GP, hello to another version of Superbike.
 
povol said:
The pervasive "punish success" mindset of todays generation has now filtered itself into the racing world.
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Remind yourself of this post next time you want to give Jumkie grief for being over-the-top.



Krop: "Though many will mourn the loss of the factory prototypes - there is a good deal of snobbery on display among the purists in the paddock - their demise (or at least their excesses being curbed) is a good and necessary thing. The purists argue that MotoGP should be the pinnacle of motorcycle racing, and that production-based engines have no place in the series. Leaving aside the fact that the restrictions of capacity and fuel allowance already place artificial and unnecessary limits on the machinery, they overlook the fact that all those shiny toys that they love have to be paid for somehow. As long as MotoGP continues to fail so utterly to raise sponsorship money - a legacy of tobacco sponsorship, which saw teams able to choose their sponsors, instead of having to go out and chase them - then the series' only hope of survival is to provide entertainment. Those 800cc MotoGP bikes have been marvels of technology, but have provided some of the dullest racing we have ever seen."
 
Beef Supreme said:
Remind yourself of this post next time you want to give Jumkie grief for being over-the-top.



Krop: "Though many will mourn the loss of the factory prototypes - there is a good deal of snobbery on display among the purists in the paddock - their demise (or at least their excesses being curbed) is a good and necessary thing. The purists argue that MotoGP should be the pinnacle of motorcycle racing, and that production-based engines have no place in the series. Leaving aside the fact that the restrictions of capacity and fuel allowance already place artificial and unnecessary limits on the machinery, they overlook the fact that all those shiny toys that they love have to be paid for somehow. As long as MotoGP continues to fail so utterly to raise sponsorship money - a legacy of tobacco sponsorship, which saw teams able to choose their sponsors, instead of having to go out and chase them - then the series' only hope of survival is to provide entertainment. Those 800cc MotoGP bikes have been marvels of technology, but have provided some of the dullest racing we have ever seen."
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This quote isn't applicable, it suggests Pov is a 'purist'
 
povol said:
God forbid someone set a bar for technology in a prototype racing series, what was i thinking. The pervasive "punish success" mindset of todays generation has now filtered itself into the racing world. I guess it was inevitable that someday the pukes who grew up in this social experiment would some day be in charge. I hoped against hope that it would not find its way into something as competitive as bike racing, but obviously that was a pipe dream. Limited configurations, limited revs, spec ecu's, production based engines, spec tires. Can we possibly get further away from what the series was intended to be, and for what, the show, equality. So long GP, hello to another version of Superbike.
Click to expand...



It's all about money. As long as John Galt is keeping his wallet in his pocket and isn't writing the 7 and 8 figure checks needed to fund factory racing, then there is no alternative.
 
Can you understand a 12 bike grid and yamaha still with no major sponsor. Do you want it to go down to 6 bikes. You do understand that it cost money for TV time. Would you prefer not even getting to watch any racing and just reading about the last gp race online.
birdman said:
Ok ok if Honda rigged it causing Aprilia, Kawasaki and maybe even Suzuki to all quit then I could be more than a little annoyed. On the other hand, being relegated to also ran status can be good. Dont people greatly admire the theatre 2004 provided? Why. Because it was specifically a man (Rossi) vs an evil empire (Honda Cup RCXXX). He took Yamaha from also ran to what? Stoner did it again. Can you understand what you all want might take that theatre away? Moto2 can never replicate it.
Click to expand...
 
Kropotkin said:
The end goal of all of this is to ditch the claiming rule and have bespoke engine manufacturers supplying engines to bespoke chassis manufacturers, all at much lower cost (hence rev limits and spec ECUs). So the manufacturers are irrelevant.



Anyway, go find a graph of sportsbike sales over the past 5 years. Then go ski down it, if you dare. Sportsbikes are already on a 3 instead of 2 year cycle, and changes are becoming smaller and smaller. Spot the difference between a 2011 CBR1000 and a 2012 CBR1000 and it's a few electronics, styling notes and that's about it. There's no money and no future in sportsbikes.
Click to expand...



Why would Dorna/FIM/Bridgepoint/IRTA want to render the MSMA irrelevant. The MSMA are the power behind the FIM. The MSMA are worth hundreds of millions of euros in commercial rights revenue.



Unfortunately, the benefits of the MSMA are not being realized b/c they do not believe the industry has any real purpose. The MSMA rules and the feuds they start with the organizers are counterproductive.



The GPC merely want to gain control of the rulebook so they can change the reason for which MotoGP exists. Right now, GP is just an aggressive branding competition that serves a few manufacturers. The GPC want for MotoGP to be a sport that supports an entire industry. SBK was originally supposed to fill this role, but SBK was rendered dysfunctional after the MSMA showed a lack of propriety regarding the entertainment value of 1000cc SBKs.



I think it is pretty clear how Bridgepoint will redefine SBK and MotoGP. SBK will go back to its roots with sales, sales, and more sales. MotoGP will become an insane circus (like the 990cc era) which provides bountiful funding for IRTA and the commercial rights interests. The rumors you've relayed about a spec-ECU and 16,000rpm rev limits make sense. It would certainly create an insane circus, and epic engines like the Honda V5 would be legal. SBK is less clear. Limited-production, high-margin SBKs sold primarily to race teams and wealthy individuals (homologation specials, basically) or Supersport rules for mass-produced cookie cutters?
 
Kropotkin said:
It's all about money. As long as John Galt is keeping his wallet in his pocket and isn't writing the 7 and 8 figure checks needed to fund factory racing, then there is no alternative.
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I guess with a name like Kropotkin, John Galts are evil in your world.
 
povol said:
I guess with a name like Kropotkin, John Galts are evil in your world.
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Sometimes your posts are like those Onion "Ask a ..." articles, in this case Ask An Ayn Randist:



Dear Ask An Ayn Randist,

I recently discovered that two of my coworkers are carrying on an office affair. Now, normally, this sort of thing would be none of my beeswax, but I have reason to suspect that they're actually doing some of their "carrying on" on other employees' desks! I often show up in the morning to find papers disheveled, and one time, I found part of what I'll tactfully call a "suspicious-looking wrapper" on my mousepad. What should I do?

—Upset In Upper Darby



Dear Upset,

The problem with the entitlement state is not simply that it is bankrupting this country–the problem is that it is morally bankrupt. The basic principle behind the entitlement state is that a person’s need entitles him to other people’s wealth. It’s that you have a duty to spend some irreplaceable part of your life laboring, not for the sake of your own life and happiness, but for the sake of others. If you are productive and self-supporting, then according to the entitlement state, you are in hock to those who aren’t. In Marx’s memorable phrase: “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.”
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Kropotkin said:
The end goal of all of this is to ditch the claiming rule and have bespoke engine manufacturers supplying engines to bespoke chassis manufacturers, all at much lower cost (hence rev limits and spec ECUs). So the manufacturers are irrelevant.



Anyway, go find a graph of sportsbike sales over the past 5 years. Then go ski down it, if you dare. Sportsbikes are already on a 3 instead of 2 year cycle, and changes are becoming smaller and smaller. Spot the difference between a 2011 CBR1000 and a 2012 CBR1000 and it's a few electronics, styling notes and that's about it. There's no money and no future in sportsbikes.
Click to expand...
 

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povol said:
God forbid someone set a bar for technology in a prototype racing series, what was i thinking. The pervasive "punish success" mindset of todays generation has now filtered itself into the racing world. I guess it was inevitable that someday the pukes who grew up in this social experiment would some day be in charge. I hoped against hope that it would not find its way into something as competitive as bike racing, but obviously that was a pipe dream. Limited configurations, limited revs, spec ecu's, production based engines, spec tires. Can we possibly get further away from what the series was intended to be, and for what, the show, equality. So long GP, hello to another version of Superbike.
Click to expand...



God forbid Honda and Yamaha should no longer be able to make the rules and buy their success.



There's no reason that the "pinnacle of racing technology" cannot be redefined. This series has been

defined by it's costliness for decades. I say who doesn't love the idea of multiple companies using their

imagination and creating innovations on smaller budgets? The bikes are already at peak performance

and this whole dichotomy wherein 100ths of a second differences in lap times are a matter of millions

of dollars spent on four-eyed eggheads crunching numbers on laptops is so played out. The current

definition of prototype is a huge failure. Nobody is proposing going back to 500cc two-strokes - but

the kind of excitement engendered by smaller teams going head-to-head with the factories as in the

'70s and '80s is something we all agree is something worth working towards. Everybody agrees that

electronics have ruined the spectacle and the human factor - and to the minds of MSMA - that is

largely how they define "prototype." Remember - the Japanese were always in forefront when it

comes to robot technologies used to replace human workers. That should tell you something about

their attitudes to racing. We all want the best bike and the best racing in one package.

We all want to have our cake and eat it. Not going to happen as long as Honda and Yamaha

are running the show. CRT works for me. As long as they don't make everybody ride on an oval.
<
 
Kropotkin said:
Anyway, go find a graph of sportsbike sales over the past 5 years. Then go ski down it, if you dare. Sportsbikes are already on a 3 instead of 2 year cycle, and changes are becoming smaller and smaller. Spot the difference between a 2011 CBR1000 and a 2012 CBR1000 and it's a few electronics, styling notes and that's about it. There's no money and no future in sportsbikes.
Click to expand...

Dont show the graph to Ducati what with that new controversial sportbike they have Bayliss developing. Dont show Aprilia either what with all the money they wasted developing a V-4 for the street. Dont tell BMW who just joined the sport 1000 market for some reason, I dont know why since apparently there's no money or no future in it?
 
hawkdriver said:
Can you understand a 12 bike grid and yamaha still with no major sponsor. Do you want it to go down to 6 bikes. You do understand that it cost money for TV time. Would you prefer not even getting to watch any racing and just reading about the last gp race online.
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Just tell me yes or no was Rossi vs Honda in 2004 or Ducati vs Honda and Yamaha 2007 interesting or not? A perfect level playing field (moto2) prevents this type of thing ever happening again.



What I want is to see all 7 manufacturers go at it, then throw in some CRT for good measure. That would be my nirvana. To me they might as well just combine motogp with SBK and be done with it, since the industry and sponsors can't support both. And if the top current motogp riders switched to SBK rather than ride moto1, SBK will be the new pinnacle for me. To put it another way, just use SBK rules as the new motogp with CRT allowed, and revert SBK back to stock racing.
 
povol said:
He used the name John Galt for a reason. He could have just said greedy evil capitalist when referring to potential sponsors or the manufacturers.
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I used the name John Galt because I knew I would get an Ayn Rand Junior High whine out of someone. For the record, I don't think capitalists are evil or greedy. Well, not all of them. And you clearly know nothing about the Prince.
 

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