They wont be posing as GP bikes, they will be GP bikes. They wont be total prototypes but that isn't necessarily significant, there was no requirement to be totally prototype until 2002. As far as uninspiring goes I think one of the major problems with motogp currently is that not many people are inspired by technical developments that they cannot see, which make the bikes less spectacular to watch. Bike racing is fairly conservative but encouraging independant chassis manufacturers is a step in the right direction and potentially more inspiring that we have currently.
They wont be posing as GP bikes, they will be GP bikes. They wont be total prototypes but that isn't necessarily significant, there was no requirement to be totally prototype until 2002. As far as uninspiring goes I think one of the major problems with motogp currently is that not many people are inspired by technical developments that they cannot see, which make the bikes less spectacular to watch. Bike racing is fairly conservative but encouraging independant chassis manufacturers is a step in the right direction and potentially more inspiring that we have currently.
I was understating when i said potentially less inspiring, i'm confident it will be more inspiring, it can hardly be less
The engines will be similar but will have differences in the heads, valves, and cams and the ways in which the cams are driven. The CRT engines should be able to produce more power as more modification will be allowed as compared to a wsbk engine. GP will also be allowed more testing which should help out to, wsbk has almost unlimited testing allowed, they were also allowed to completely rebuild engines as they wanted buy they will also be seeing changing rules for next season in these areas.
Why? What additional modifications could lead to any appreciable gains in power? MotoGP and WSBK use the same fuel and they have roughly the same engineers doing the development work in both series.
We know CRT engines will make more power than WSBK engines. We know that the manufacturers already do WSBK modifications that exceed anything the private teams will likely be able to duplicate (and they use better materials). If a WSBK engine has better parts than a CRT engine, but makes less horsepower, what does that tell you about SBK engines?
I'm still confused why CRT is going to kill factory teams. CRT means teams can race without spending hundreds of millions on prototype racing factories and prototype racing machines, but it doesn't mean that CRT will be better than full factory equipment. The factory bikes will only disappear if the manufacturers withdraw. I suspect an 81mm 1000cc full-factory machine with 24L of fuel would still beat a well-built CRT machine.
CRT is just a foothold for small manufacturing companies so they can develop into big manufacturing companies. MotoGP provides revenue. The revenue is poured into fixed assets and R&D. Eventually, the good small companies will become big racing companies. They might eventually become production firms. Imo, the Japanese are afraid of CRT for business reasons. The big manufacturers will continue winning on track, especially since MotoGP pays manufacturers a pittance, but they can't stop new racing companies from stealing marketshare and upsetting the global motorcycling cartel.
CRT is just a foothold for small manufacturing companies so they can develop into big manufacturing companies. MotoGP provides revenue. The revenue is poured into fixed assets and R&D. Eventually, the good small companies will become big racing companies. They might eventually become production firms. Imo, the Japanese are afraid of CRT for business reasons. The big manufacturers will continue winning on track, especially since MotoGP pays manufacturers a pittance, but they can't stop new racing companies from stealing marketshare and upsetting the global motorcycling cartel.
Walk into the IRTA truck and the word "manufacturers" is always preceded by the adjective ".......". Unfortunately, Dorna had a five-year contract with the manufacturers that prevented them from kicking them to the curb until 2012. Right now, I'm not sure whether they've signed a new contract yet, but believe me, Dorna want the factories out. Up until September, they were expecting to maneuver them out over the next 5 year period, but since PI, things have moved into a higher gear. The factories' days are numbered.
Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
Dont Know
There's a bigger picture to this than racing. The 'manufacturers' they hate already spend millions developing road bikes for us the consumers. We benefit, or at least I think I do. Anyone think a 1000cc roadbike is too expensive? Where else can you buy that much performance for $16 k? Its 250 hp and 175 kg! Wow I like manufacturers, engineers and designers a hell of a lot.
What they are doing is letting the '.......' manufacturers spend the millions developing roadbikes that the 'cheap' CRT pretend manufacturers can then steal for free to race against the very same manufacturer that developed it in the first place, now spending more millions developing a prototype? How long can that last.
What they are doing is letting the '.......' manufacturers spend the millions developing roadbikes that the 'cheap' CRT pretend manufacturers can then steal for free to race against the very same manufacturer that developed it in the first place, now spending more millions developing a prototype? How long can that last.
Like I said in my first post the engines wil see more modifications, for example the Aprilia engine will be able to run the gear driven cams that have been outlawed in WSBK, the vales will also be modified further than what is allowed in WSBK.
Why
Well part of winning is finding any advantage you can.
It doesn't matter that the engineers are the same when those engineers have a different set of rules to use when designing and modifying the engines.
It does matter that the engineers are the same b/c they are the world's best at engineering airflow modifications. The airflow mods in WSBK are as good as they are going to get despite some of the annoying limitations in the WSBK rulebook. Extensive modification probably won't make any major difference in volumetric efficiency. Furthermore, I doubt the CRTs will have the budget or the expertise to redesign or modify the cylinderhead to accommodate extensive top-end modifications.
I'm not trying to question your knowledge of engine modifications, I'm just asking a question that so many fans are willfully ignoring:
Why will a CRT make considerably more power than the equivalent WSBK? The major sources of horsepower are displacement, revs, and induction. Displacement and induction are the same as the WSBK bike. The engineers who perform the airflow mods are the same so volumetric efficiency is basically topped out. Where is the power coming from? The obvious answer is revs, but why does a CRT make considerably more revs than a WSBK?
Maybe I'm asking the wrong question. Maybe I should be asking, "Why does a WSBK make considerably fewer revs than a CRT?". This is the key to international motorcycle racing, and it is the fundamental difference between a production engine in WSBK and a production engine in CRT.
I hope you are correct Krop.
Rev limiting would allow the GPC to terminate the cylinder rule, bore rule, and fuel rule. The new 1000cc rules are a welcome improvement to the 800cc formula, but they are a huge disappointment compared to the prospect of a rev limit. As I once wrote on your site, a rev limit would allow the manufacturers to dust off their 990s. The return of the Honda V5 would be enough to stimulate growth, and it might even stabilize the sport as everyone prepares to go sans-Rossi.
If Toseland was worth $2M over 2 years. How much is Dorna paying for Rossi?
I love those kinds of questions. The implications are so juicy.
It will last as long as there is a demand for what they produce. Don't worry though people are still buying sports cars even though most racing series don't use engines that are tuned by the factories, never mind that most racing engines have been re-badged after purchase/contracted from small companies like judd, cosworth, llmor, TAG, and on and on the list goes. Why should the factories be the only ones allowed to bring us racing machines, have you ever asked yourself if things have come to be because they are scared of competition.
Keeping with your line of thinking how much slower would the bikes be if they were to use factory everything
How many of them have failed to keep up with the marvel4, all of them so far. They don't want real competition.
The last time the factories left GP did they just die off?
Sure it will, and as far as the engineers go I don't agree with you. Like I said in another post most racing engines are not devloped by the factory in other series and no factory has any monopoly on engineering talent or where the next innovation will come from.
Is Redbull just a fluke?
Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
Dont Know
Hey competition is great. You reckon Japanese manufacturers are scared of competition? Funny way of showing it. Or do you mean they have strategies to drive off competition. Thats different. They would be stupid not to. But the most fierce competition is not for motogp. Its for sales and profit. Its not even up to manufacturers whether they want real competition. Thats the choice of the consumer. We determine the marketplace. If consumers want the marvel4 (I dont know what that is?) then thats a real market force which drives competition. If we are all blind to see only what Honda wants us to see, then Honda's the winner, marvel4 the loser. Honda might be a bit more worried about BMW though.
The main driver of everything in motogp is the developing world, not the MSMA or IRTA or DORNA. I think the MSMA only wants motogp to mirror the market. Any market has 'stupid rules' not agreed upon.
Atm I find a production Aprilia, BMW, and Ducati much more interesting than any moto2 bike on the grid, which I think is a future problem for motogp. Its also a future problem for the Japanese big four, because its real competition going on out there, actually more like full on war.
Ok, now I do question your knowledge of engine building and the business of racing. Valve surface area can only do so much for a naturally aspirated engine, and WSBK engines are probably well into diminishing marginal returns already. A few million dollars would probably not net more than a few horsepower. Furthermore, the engines are obviously developed by the factories b/c the factories design and build the titanium internals and the electronics. They refuse to put their name on the team b/c they demand commercial rights money. WSBK doesn't pay the manufacturers (the sport is supposed to be sales-related) so the Japanese pretend that factory technicians are not involved.
Also, engine development is frozen and engines are equalized in F1. Transmissions are about the same. Red Bull have the best aerodynamicist, and they've done the best job skirting the rules with their blown diffuser. The Concorde is highly stratified for performance so Red Bull's championship victories net them over $100M in commercial money (rumored). If a CRT team had a factory Honda engine, a factory Honda transmission, the best chassis builder, and a $100M budget; we wouldn't be having this conversation.
What I'm trying to say is that CRT engines will make considerably more horsepower than an SBK b/c SBK engines are regulated to make a certain amount of power (often below their true potential).
The part in bold is what I don't like and exactly why I don't want the MSMA in charge of racing. How much more in awe of that Aprilia would you be if you saw a bike powered by it's engine (that's tuned and built by mere mortals who are passionate about racing) keeping up with a full factory Honda in the top speed charts.
Probably is not a good answer and the fact that Aprilia had it's gear driven cams banned should be more than enough proof that their is more power to be had in the engines. I also never once said the factories are not developing their own engines, what I said was that in other racing series engine developement is often contracted out. You might have noticed this if it wasn't for your eagerness to insult what I know.
You know you said the same exact thing as me right, and while contradicting yourself. How many times did I say WSBK is limited by it's rules. Twice at least but I don't feel like going back and counting. I have no idea what you are getting at except that you wanted to prove what I already said in my original post while also trying to insult me, lets review shall we.
What I said in my first post
The engines will be similar but will have differences in the heads, valves, and cams and the ways in which the cams are driven. The CRT engines should be able to produce more power as more modification will be allowed as compared to a wsbk engine.
What you said
What I'm trying to say is that CRT engines will make considerably more horsepower than an SBK b/c SBK engines are regulated to make a certain amount of power (often below their true potential).
So wtf are you getting at, do you want to debate that the current valve system employed in a wsbk engine needs modifications to account for the valve float that happens at the 16k rpm the engines will see in GP. That the extra RPM will need a more efficient way to drive the cams, gear driven cams give you better control of timing because gears don't stretch, unlike the chain driven cams currently used. That different valve springs will be needed for the extra RPM, like the ones Yamaha experimented with. Or do you want to debate that the heads will need to be modified to accept the extra valve lift needed to run at a higher RPM, more valve lift gets you what... more air maybe.
That is a masterpiece! Really, I think it opened my eyes to many things and I devoured every sentence. Well done!
You've single handedly changed my view of the 2012 season. Your assertions about Moto2 being the most anticipated race of the weekend are absolutely spot on! I adore Moto2! (I guess I have now officially disagreed with Povol)
Again, what a great piece, well done!
Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
Dont Know
Without sales and profit there is no MSMA, no manufacturers, no racing? I cant build my own bike. They cant do it for free either. No profit for Aprilia means no bike for mortals to tune in the first place. Anyway an Aprilia tweeked engine keeping up with a factory Honda makes me impressed with Aprilia since they designed and mass produced it for me to get my jollys off when I go riding. Whats DORNA or the other fat middlemen in motogp done for me lately? Pay for the grid girls. Well ok then, but what else. Nothing I tell ya, the manufacturers are the ones I respect more.
Alright, alright a cheaper privateer production based bike being competitive with a factory Honda with say Mark Aitchinson riding would be very cool, but Id still rather SBK be the tune the production bike series, and Motogp to return to the days when all the manufacturers were going at it, with Aprilia and BMW included in the mix. If the MSMA were the cause of preventing this then I guess I could be just a little annoyed with them about it.
Do you think there's any chance that Aprilia would be able to compete with Honda if they were forced to comply with the rules as they exist in 2011? If pure prototypes is what you desire, than you should get used to the idea that manufacturers like Aprilia will be absent from the series. Even the mighty BMW would be forced to spend millions upon millions with I suspect little to show for their efforts. The rules as they currently exits prevent competition save those that have proven MotoGP programs with millions to go with....and even in that case (Ducati), occasionally their effort is completely wasted.
It's a rig! A bad one at that. Honda was able to relegate Yamaha to "also ran" status. Ponder that for a second. Where does that leave the rest of the cycle manufacturing world? What we currently have is the "Honda Cup" if you will. If you don't have an RC2XX, you're racing for 4th. I welcome the change. If the new formula needs to be re-worked, I can handle that. What I don't think I can handle is another season of poor competition with a paltry 17 combatants.
