Support Electronics Ban

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Jan 18 2008, 11:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Where'd he say that!!??

A bit lazy to day, are we, or in disbelief? Considering your earlier statments I'm surpriced you think Roossi can ride without support wheels on the bike. You don't even have to google. Just search this forum and you will find the link. But of course as it doesn't fit your "flat" world I'm sure you'll find "evidence" that it is either fabricated or that Kevin Schwantz is just another Rossi fan without any integrety.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jan 18 2008, 10:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>A bit lazy to day, are we, or in disbelief? Considering your earlier statments I'm surpriced you think Roossi can ride without support wheels on the bike. You don't even have to google. Just search this forum and you will find the link. But of course as it doesn't fit your "flat" world I'm sure you'll find "evidence" that it is either fabricated or that Kevin Schwantz is just another Rossi fan without any integrety.

No ..... where did Shwantz say that Rossi's bike has the "most least electronics" ??

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Jan 18 2008, 12:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No ..... where did Shwantz say that Rossi's bike has the "most least electronics" ??


try reading this article again....

http://www.powerslide.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=6412

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Jan 18 2008, 11:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>try reading this article again....

http://www.powerslide.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=6412


And which bit do you interpret to say Rossi has the "most least electronics"?

How did he have the TC set? was it on even?, if it was on what tyres was ut set for?, was it for qualies or race tyres? was it as Rossi last rode it? ......... I guess you are suggesting that Rossi has a big relationship with Magnetti Marelli and has used their gear for many a year ...... but turns it off? o indeed does not adjust it at all??

Even years ago before even electronic ignition ( yes the days of points LOL ) bikes were adjusted on the day to suit a track, rider, tyres, weather, altitude, race distance etc. etc. etc. Remember ignition advance weights?? the springs would even be changed to change the feel of the power ..... But the main thing was the bikes gets adjusted and how it feels one race is set up for that race and for a purpose ........

None of us will ever know each race who is running the "most least" electronics ...... the yamaha techos would be able to go back and tell you more than you want to know about how a bike was set up on a certain day ...... but I doubt they would confide that to anyone .....

Taking one off assessment rides as "how a gp bike is" is a pretty "iffy" thing ...... thats why I think Mamola said it best when he mentioned the electronics and said "who knows ..... its how yamaha gave it to us"

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Jan 18 2008, 01:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Taking one off assessment rides as "how a gp bike is" is a pretty "iffy" thing ...... thats why I think Mamola said it best when he mentioned the electronics and said "who knows ..... its how yamaha gave it to us"

seeing as this is all the general public and journos/ex-riders have to judge these bikes (and the previous seasons results), i will accept the word of Mr Schwantz.....

some people here suggest that rossis bike has the least electronic "influence", myself included, whilst you suggest that he has the most....i am curious as to how you arrived at this conclusion ie. rossi has it all turned up "max"?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Jan 19 2008, 01:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>seeing as this is all the general public and journos/ex-riders have to judge these bikes (and the previous seasons results), i will accept the word of Mr Schwantz.....

some people here suggest that rossis bike has the least electronic "influence", myself included, whilst you suggest that he has the most....i am curious as to how you arrived at this conclusion ie. rossi has it all turned up "max"?

No I suggest, Rossi like all the riders, had it turned " all over the place" dependent on what he needed on the day. Thats what TC and electronics is about isn't it? Thats what its designed for. Why would Yamaha fit the gear then not use it? Why would Rossi, who has won most championships in the elctronics era, have his bike set up in a singular setup???

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Jan 19 2008, 01:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No I suggest, Rossi like all the riders, had it turned " all over the place" dependent on what he needed on the day. Thats what TC and electronics is about isn't it? Thats what its designed for. Why would Yamaha fit the gear then not use it? Why would Rossi, who has won most championships in the elctronics era, have his bike set up in a singular setup???

I think Rossi's bike is the most unstable because they have to reduce the TC to make up the speed disadvantage.

The Ducati is the most stable bike because they have more speed than they need and can trade of top speed for safety.

Like Colin Edwards said about Schumacher you can turn TC higher and you do a slower lap but the risk is smaller.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (an4rew @ Jan 19 2008, 01:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Like Colin Edwards said about Schumacher you can turn TC higher and you do a slower lap but the risk is smaller.

Except in Stoner's case I suppose ?? .... cos he was faster but according to you his TC was turned higher ... ......... something don't "gel" there

And Rossi was slower because his was turned lower??? ....... thats an anomalie ..


Actually I think also with TC the term "turned" is probably not really suited .... it kinda suggests that its a "one knob adjustment" ..... like a stove hotplate ....... I don't think TC is really much like that, its more like a recipe, where if you change one small part, the outcome changes in a certain way. There are parameters specifically for other changes on the bike eg. harder tyres would effect different parameters in different ways ...... thats what the rider and programmer d when setting up the bike ..... they build up a knowledge of what to program for and adjust for.

There seems to be too many "myths" and "anomalies" about TC, and too much comment based on assumptions and second guessing ......... each bikes/riders program for TC is probably only known to a select few.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Jan 19 2008, 02:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Except in Stoner's case I suppose ?? .... cos he was faster but according to you his TC was turned higher ... ......... something don't "gel" there

And Rossi was slower because his was turned lower??? ....... thats an anomalie ..

I really don't know why you bother mate, it's not like you are going to get a reasoned response from him.
I guess the fact that the Vale's Yamaha was always pulling up later than all the other bikes was plainly due to his balls to the wall riding style and nothing to do with engine braking on the bike.
I think someone's been reading " The Double Standards book for dummies".

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Jan 19 2008, 04:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Except in Stoner's case I suppose ?? .... cos he was faster but according to you his TC was turned higher ... ......... something don't "gel" there

Now that's a good one. You are actually comparing Stoner and Shumacher as riders? That's something I would never do.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Actually I think also with TC the term "turned" is probably not really suited .... it kinda suggests that its a "one knob adjustment" ..... like a stove hotplate ....... I don't think TC is really much like that, its more like a recipe, where if you change one small part, the outcome changes in a certain way. There are parameters specifically for other changes on the bike eg. harder tyres would effect different parameters in different ways ...... thats what the rider and programmer d when setting up the bike ..... they build up a knowledge of what to program for and adjust for.

There seems to be too many "myths" and "anomalies" about TC, and too much comment based on assumptions and second guessing ......... each bikes/riders program for TC is probably only known to a select few.

Now all that's very true. There is obviously a multitude of adjustments available. First of all you have all the inputs sensitivity and then the outputs and how much they influence the "fixed" mapping, then you have the mapping it self, and finally the reprogramming of the "regulators" in the TC.
To suggest it's a one knob adjsutment is just like you say an oversimplification.

Its unavoidable sports likes this getting aid by eletronics, sooner or later this will become a reality. Things evolves naturally and keeping this kind of innovation out is harder than have riders adapting to it.

Personally I think this movement to ban eletronics and aids ridiculous. There are a lot of new areas where riders will need skills and proof of that is older riders struggling and complaining about. If we have boring races is just because there is a mix of old and new things. Obviously new areas beats old areas. We need all new or all old to have tough competition between riders. But I prefer the new ones. Riders have to evolve too just like the bikes.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gui22a @ Jan 19 2008, 03:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Its unavoidable sports likes this getting aid by eletronics, sooner or later this will become a reality. Things evolves naturally and keeping this kind of innovation out is harder than have riders adapting to it.

Personally I think this movement to ban eletronics and aids ridiculous. There are a lot of new areas where riders will need skills and proof of that is older riders struggling and complaining about. If we have boring races is just because there is a mix of old and new things. Obviously new areas beats old areas. We need all new or all old to have tough competition between riders. But I prefer the new ones. Riders have to evolve too just like the bikes.

Well, most new things in motorsports are tried and either banned or simply thrown away again. Look at F1 from the 60's and up to now.

There is nothing that indicate that they can't ban input of gyro, leanangle and GPSsignals. It would be easy to impliment and control and it would take away most of the actual TC functionality. There are still some rudimentary TC actions that can be taken with the ECU with only gear/throotle/rpm but that's more or less unavioidable and not at all as influential.

Question is if it does give us boring racing or not. I'm still a bit udecided about that and would give it this season. If things are still just as boring, then throw it out.

dont you see that to much electronics are the problem in motogp not the "solution"

some quotes.

Barros says, ‘In the past, with less electronics, the rider was able to make the difference. But right now, it neutralises it a little bit. Maybe Ducati, Yamaha and Honda have to talk about this for the future.

kevin schwantz: My opinion is, electronics have really made the average guy be able to go out and go fast, and everybody qualifies really, really well, and I think that we're paying too much attention to that. Seeing everybody, all 20 bikes, within less than a second or a second and a half in qualifying, hasn't made the racing any better. We need to go back to letting these guys really ride these things, and wrestle these things around.

kenny roberts: ban traction control, ban fly-by-wire, You want some guy to go out there and ride the bike loose and on the limit, so you can see that this guy is winning because of something you can see – his riding – not some electronics package that decides how much throttle to open.

mamola: There is talk of changing or modifying the tyre rule for 2008, but nobody seems to be talking about restricting electronics. And in any case, while riders like Rossi and Capirossi may be in MotoGP for only another year or two, there’s now an entire generation of MotoGP riders who can, perhaps, only go fast with electronics, not without them.

do these guys sound like they are enjoying the electronic motogp?

2006 is were electronics just become to much is this why racing has gone so gay?

Instead of the previous "2 x 2" fuel injection system (two throttle plates were controlled by the rider, while the other two were controlled by the engine-management system, today's system the throttle control is all done by the EMS and thats just gay.

so there you have it that all the rider is doing is basicaly steering the bike in the corners and they dont get much say on the throttle.
what sort of hoof is that, dam autopilot atleast put it back to the 2x2 configuration so the rider gets some sorta say in the bends, the fly-by-wire throttle control system is gay get rid of that!

hey why dont we just tell dorna fitting a scaletrix style track would be a benefit also.......

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jazkat @ Jan 19 2008, 07:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>dont you see that to much electronics are the problem in motogp not the "solution"

some quotes.

Barros says, ‘In the past, with less electronics, the rider was able to make the difference. But right now, it neutralises it a little bit. Maybe Ducati, Yamaha and Honda have to talk about this for the future.

kevin schwantz: My opinion is, electronics have really made the average guy be able to go out and go fast, and everybody qualifies really, really well, and I think that we're paying too much attention to that. Seeing everybody, all 20 bikes, within less than a second or a second and a half in qualifying, hasn't made the racing any better. We need to go back to letting these guys really ride these things, and wrestle these things around.

kenny roberts: ban traction control, ban fly-by-wire, You want some guy to go out there and ride the bike loose and on the limit, so you can see that this guy is winning because of something you can see – his riding – not some electronics package that decides how much throttle to open.

mamola: There is talk of changing or modifying the tyre rule for 2008, but nobody seems to be talking about restricting electronics. And in any case, while riders like Rossi and Capirossi may be in MotoGP for only another year or two, there’s now an entire generation of MotoGP riders who can, perhaps, only go fast with electronics, not without them.

do these guys sound like they are enjoying the electronic motogp?

2006 is were electronics just become to much is this why racing has gone so gay?

Instead of the previous "2 x 2" fuel injection system (two throttle plates were controlled by the rider, while the other two were controlled by the engine-management system, today's system the throttle control is all done by the EMS and thats just gay.

so there you have it that all the rider is doing is basicaly steering the bike in the corners and they dont get much say on the throttle.
what sort of hoof is that, dam autopilot atleast put it back to the 2x2 configuration so the rider gets some sorta say in the bends, the fly-by-wire throttle control system is gay get rid of that!

hey why dont we just tell dorna fitting a scaletrix style track would be a benefit also.......
good post, pretty much sums up the future of the sport unless something is done.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jazkat @ Jan 19 2008, 07:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>2006 is were electronics just become to much is this why racing has gone so gay?

Surely not, 2006 was the best season in YEARS.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phleg @ Jan 19 2008, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Surely not, 2006 was the best season in YEARS.

dam phleg u little fault finder

soz i meant 2007 my mistakce 06 was the last season of the beast

lets just say they have to cool off on the help system abit

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jazkat @ Jan 19 2008, 05:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>dont you see that to much electronics are the problem in motogp not the "solution"

some quotes.

Barros says, ‘In the past, with less electronics, the rider was able to make the difference. But right now, it neutralises it a little bit. Maybe Ducati, Yamaha and Honda have to talk about this for the future.

kevin schwantz: My opinion is, electronics have really made the average guy be able to go out and go fast, and everybody qualifies really, really well, and I think that we're paying too much attention to that. Seeing everybody, all 20 bikes, within less than a second or a second and a half in qualifying, hasn't made the racing any better. We need to go back to letting these guys really ride these things, and wrestle these things around.

kenny roberts: ban traction control, ban fly-by-wire, You want some guy to go out there and ride the bike loose and on the limit, so you can see that this guy is winning because of something you can see – his riding – not some electronics package that decides how much throttle to open.

mamola: There is talk of changing or modifying the tyre rule for 2008, but nobody seems to be talking about restricting electronics. And in any case, while riders like Rossi and Capirossi may be in MotoGP for only another year or two, there’s now an entire generation of MotoGP riders who can, perhaps, only go fast with electronics, not without them.

do these guys sound like they are enjoying the electronic motogp?

2006 is were electronics just become to much is this why racing has gone so gay?

Instead of the previous "2 x 2" fuel injection system (two throttle plates were controlled by the rider, while the other two were controlled by the engine-management system, today's system the throttle control is all done by the EMS and thats just gay.

so there you have it that all the rider is doing is basicaly steering the bike in the corners and they dont get much say on the throttle.
what sort of hoof is that, dam autopilot atleast put it back to the 2x2 configuration so the rider gets some sorta say in the bends, the fly-by-wire throttle control system is gay get rid of that!

hey why dont we just tell dorna fitting a scaletrix style track would be a benefit also.......

If that is the case then we have also to vote for banning new tyres techs, new engine techs, new fairings and anything that is helping rider and bike go quicker. Isn't this things helping rider too? Rider always will be able to make the difference, some knows how to coordenate TC and other tricks better than others, as well as choosing the right tires, the right engine mapping, etc. They are still assuming Desmosedici GP7 win the title for Stoner.

Motogp is a show not only provided by riders but ALSO by bike technologies. If they want to watch a racing sport 100% human-bounded, there is athletic games like 100 meters, 100 meters w/ hurdles and even triathlon.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gui22a @ Jan 19 2008, 09:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If that is the case then we have also to vote for banning new tyres techs, new engine techs, new fairings and anything that is helping rider and bike go quicker. Isn't this things helping rider too? Rider always will be able to make the difference, some knows how to coordenate TC and other tricks better than others, as well as choosing the right tires, the right engine mapping, etc.

Motogp is a show not only provided by riders but ALSO by bike technologies. If they want to watch a racing sport 100% human-bounded, there is athletic games like 100 meters, 100 meters w/ hurdles and even triathlon.
i think you miss the point. tyres fairings ect are not intrusive on the rider and what he wants the bike to do were as tc is.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Jan 19 2008, 03:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Except in Stoner's case I suppose ?? .... cos he was faster but according to you his TC was turned higher ... ......... something don't "gel" there

The Ducati loses a little in the corners but not so much as before, then blows down the straight where TC is irrelevant. The TC on the Ducati could be more influential than on the Yamaha and the Ducati still wins that battle.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Jan 19 2008, 03:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And Rossi was slower because his was turned lower??? ....... thats an anomalie ..

Rossi was having to ride the bike more on the edge this year... most of the time just to keep up.

I think Rossi problem with TC, he wants more from the bike so hes going against the benefits of electronics, he needs to be more like Stoner and let the bike do the work, save tyres and yamaha need to supply him with a competitive engine to do that.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (an4rew @ Jan 20 2008, 09:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The Ducati loses a little in the corners but not so much as before, then blows down the straight where TC is irrelevant. The TC on the Ducati could be more influential than on the Yamaha and the Ducati still wins that battle.



Rossi was having to ride the bike more on the edge this year... most of the time just to keep up.

I think Rossi problem with TC, he wants more from the bike so hes going against the benefits of electronics, he needs to be more like Stoner and let the bike do the work, save tyres and yamaha need to supply him with a competitive engine to do that.

Well he does need to change thats for sure if we want to see the old Rossi come back ...... he needs to fight the bike like we saw Stoner wrestling that Duc around. ..... that was what Rossi used to look like too, but lately ...?? nup ..... he just doesn't seem to have that "win at all cost" style any more ..... Pedrosa is a hard one to pick ...... he doesn't often look like he is fightng the bike but he is still flying ... Since Pedrosa had to pull his head in he seems to have developed a new style that is fast but not "out there" and noticeable .... kinda like he is in "stealth" mode just thinking in 08 if he gets a bit more confidence ( after his public humiliation of 06 ) he's going to be the one to beat . I'm kinda thinking the torpedoing he received himself this year spurred him on a bit .... that was a lot of lost points due to someone else ..... ..... and boy he could have used them .. ironic really