Support Electronics Ban

I wouldn't dare venture to guess too much what they do exactly .... that was just a theoretical example. But thats the beauty of motogp they will all have different ways of doing it ...... the competition is in the development..... the only directive is to make a faster product. The winner in the end is the public as these developments move onto the product we buy. I'd hate to see electronics developments curtailed on moto's.

If we stop them playing around with "new stuff" then in the end we miss out on improvements to that product.

Things like Expansion chambers, rotary valves, slipper clutches, telescopic forks, aerodynamic fairings, engine configurations, electronic mapping, fuel efficiency gains, tyre improvements, etc etc etc. all got improved by inovation and trialling in motogp. Electronics is a relatively new area ... so it would be a bummer to stop development strains now.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 4 2008, 05:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I wouldn't dare venture to guess too much what they do exactly .... that was just a theoretical example. But thats the beauty of motogp they will all have different ways of doing it ...... the competition is in the development..... the only directive is to make a faster product. The winner in the end is the public as these developments move onto the product we buy. I'd hate to see electronics developments curtailed on moto's.

If we stop them playing around with "new stuff" then in the end we miss out on improvements to that product.

Things like Expansion chambers, rotary valves, slipper clutches, telescopic forks, aerodynamic fairings, engine configurations, electronic mapping, fuel efficiency gains, tyre improvements, etc etc etc. all got improved by inovation and trialling in motogp. Electronics is a relatively new area ... so it would be a bummer to stop development strains now.

But you are making anwful lot of asumptions about what any rules regarding electronics would lead to.

What if the oposite is true: A regulation of electronics shift focus back to where it should be, the mechanical part of the bike, true inovation of the product, enshuring better and faster bikes, with or without electronics.

The beauty of electronics is that what it does and how is done is fully documented and controlled. Fluid mechanics in a shock and how that interact with springs, tires, frame flex... is inifinatly more complex than any TC any producer can ever come up with.
The TC development for road bikes would continue regardless of MotoGP and is such a different thing that they probably allready test this with little more then known principles and a maybe a few gotcha's from the track, ie almost independant to the current track developments.

All those components you mention should get developed ...... why controll electronics? Why not declare monoshock with variable rate damping are too helpful to the riderS?? and call for all riders to go back too twin shock no variable rate. Gee I rode faster when those things came out so they sure aided the rider compared to the previous component options. Same thing happens in tyres, brakes, fuel, oils they get better with development ..... why are electronics any different?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 4 2008, 08:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>All those components you mention should get developed ...... why controll electronics? Why not declare monoshock with variable rate damping are too helpful to the riderS?? and call for all riders to go back too twin shock no variable rate. Gee I rode faster when those things came out so they sure aided the rider compared to the previous component options. Same thing happens in tyres, brakes, fuel, oils they get better with development ..... why are electronics any different?

You've got the answere to this a dozen of times. All those mechanical improvements make a better bike but they do not override the rider's input like the electronics does, infact better parts usually does the oposite.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 4 2008, 08:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>All those components you mention should get developed ...... why controll electronics? Why not declare monoshock with variable rate damping are too helpful to the riderS?? and call for all riders to go back too twin shock no variable rate. Gee I rode faster when those things came out so they sure aided the rider compared to the previous component options. Same thing happens in tyres, brakes, fuel, oils they get better with development ..... why are electronics any different?
Tell me why electronics are any different than :

engines must be normally aspirated, ie no turbos
crank and camshaft must be either steel or cast iron
only 4 strokes allowed, ie no rotary's
section of pistons/cylinders must be circular (+/- 5%), ie no oval pistons
fuel must be unleaded and must comply to an exact specification (ie no development allowed)
fuel limited to 21 litres
min weight restricted based on number of cylinders
maximum of 6 gears allowed

As I have said before, yes this is a prototype series, but there are regulations applied in order to make sure that it remains a racing series. Why should the electronics be exempt.

It's not about electronics being too helpful to the riders, but about electronics taking control from the riders. This will obviously allow less skilled riders to perform as well as more skilled riders.

The corollary to my last statement is that Casey Stoner is highly skilled as he is often quicker than other known good riders, so don't turn this into a VR-CS thing please.

Traction control, what traction control?


2775:mccoyg.gif]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Feb 5 2008, 11:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This will obviously allow less skilled riders to perform as well as more skilled riders.

Which "less skilled riders" did perform as well as the more skilled riders in 07 ... due to electronics aids.

on your list of stuff they can't have:

Turbo ..... well seems stupid to want them anyway when we are complaining the riders need TC to tame a normally aspirated bike already On a funnier note ... when the expansion chamber came in it was effectively like bolting on a turbo .... anyone know if bannings were called for at that time? Maybe MV would have I guess

To be honest steel and cast iron are pretty good stuff for cranks so meh to this one ....

bit of a bummer about rotaries I allways wondered why but meh I don't think they'd meet the efficiecies needed for 21 litres anyway??

No oval pistons ..... bummer that was an interesting time in "techo land" the Japanese where sticking oval shaped bit into everything ( Toyoto and Subaru adopted oval in their logos ) .... even petrol bowser meters ( which we had to test ) I think it was a bit "meh" anyway..

fuel yeah --- fair enough showing a contemporary path to better care of the environment and all that .... then laying bick black carbon tracks on it and burning rubber on the way its a bit that one

21 litres ... fair enough there aint that much petrol left in the world so another race worth of petrol saved for that last great motogp race ( when armageddon happens and we run out )

min weight cylinders ... bit defunct now .... don't seem to be many "also rans" like the old 500 twin Hondas anymore ... so a bit meh .... but its nice to know its there for someone with a "penchant" for worrying about friction versus numbers of pots

6 gears!! ... better take back one of Agos titles didn't the old MV's have like 24 speed auto or something!!?? Anyway with all the torque and power these days do they need more?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 5 2008, 02:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Which "less skilled riders" did perform as well as the more skilled riders in 07 ... due to electronics aids.
I said "It's not about electronics being too helpful to the riders, but about electronics taking control from the riders. This will obviously allow less skilled riders to perform as well as more skilled riders."

The clue was in the use of the word "will". If I'd said "has" you could have asked that question

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 5 2008, 02:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>on your list of stuff they can't have:

Turbo ..... well seems stupid to want them anyway when we are complaining the riders need TC to tame a normally aspirated bike already On a funnier note ... when the expansion chamber came in it was effectively like bolting on a turbo .... anyone know if bannings were called for at that time? Maybe MV would have I guess

To be honest steel and cast iron are pretty good stuff for cranks so meh to this one ....

bit of a bummer about rotaries I allways wondered why but meh I don't think they'd meet the efficiecies needed for 21 litres anyway??

No oval pistons ..... bummer that was an interesting time in "techo land" the Japanese where sticking oval shaped bit into everything ( Toyoto and Subaru adopted oval in their logos ) .... even petrol bowser meters ( which we had to test ) I think it was a bit "meh" anyway..

fuel yeah --- fair enough showing a contemporary path to better care of the environment and all that .... then laying bick black carbon tracks on it and burning rubber on the way its a bit that one

21 litres ... fair enough there aint that much petrol left in the world so another race worth of petrol saved for that last great motogp race ( when armageddon happens and we run out )

min weight cylinders ... bit defunct now .... don't seem to be many "also rans" like the old 500 twin Hondas anymore ... so a bit meh .... but its nice to know its there for someone with a "penchant" for worrying about friction versus numbers of pots

6 gears!! ... better take back one of Agos titles didn't the old MV's have like 24 speed auto or something!!?? Anyway with all the torque and power these days do they need more?
The question I wanted answering (as opposed to getting your views on the the current FIM rules, fascinating though that was ) was:

Tell me why electronics are any different than the stuff affected by these regulations.

Yes this is a prototype series, but there are regulations applied in order to make sure that it remains a racing series. Why should the electronics be exempt.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Feb 5 2008, 07:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I said "It's not about electronics being too helpful to the riders, but about electronics taking control from the riders. This will obviously allow less skilled riders to perform as well as more skilled riders."

The clue was in the use of the word "will". If I'd said "has" you could have asked that question

oh as in the future? ..... what you are speculating that it will affect the racin? ..... even though cold hard evidence is out there ..... ie. the last few years of racing should be enough ......... why will it be any different to how it has been for a few years now??? have you seen it "allowing less skilled riders to perform as well as more skilled riders." ??

Because I would say no it hasn't ..... again you are just making it look like a "straw" to be clutched at

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 6 2008, 04:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>oh as in the future? ..... what you are speculating that it will affect the racin? ..... even though cold hard evidence is out there ..... ie. the last few years of racing should be enough ......... why will it be any different to how it has been for a few years now??? have you seen it "allowing less skilled riders to perform as well as more skilled riders." ??

Because I would say no it hasn't ..... again you are just making it look like a "straw" to be clutched at
Ignored my question again I see.

The more development goes into the electronics the less input the rider will actually have, eventually the rider will be able to pin the throttle for the whole lap and have the electronics do the rest. Already they can (and do - check out some of last year's on-board footage) pin the the throttle before corner apex.

Surely you can see that pinning the throttle takes less skill than having direct throttle with no electronic intervention.

This, together with engine maps per corner, are the bits of "TC" I would like to see banned and I cannot conceive how this can be classed as "clutching at straws 'cos I'm a Rossi fanboy".

Assuming that Rossi is indeed on the wane as you continually claim then surely Stoner et al would be much better than him if they went back to direct throttle and engine maps per gear rather than per corner.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Feb 6 2008, 05:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ignored my question again I see.

The more development goes into the electronics the less input the rider will actually have, eventually the rider will be able to pin the throttle for the whole lap and have the electronics do the rest. Already they can (and do - check out some of last year's on-board footage) pin the the throttle before corner apex.

Surely you can see that pinning the throttle takes less skill than having direct throttle with no electronic intervention.

This, together with engine maps per corner, are the bits of "TC" I would like to see banned and I cannot conceive how this can be classed as "clutching at straws 'cos I'm a Rossi fanboy".

Assuming that Rossi is indeed on the wane as you continually claim then surely Stoner et al would be much better than him if they went back to direct throttle and engine maps per gear rather than per corner.


ok put simply ..... they are not banned ...... do you get that??

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 6 2008, 07:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>ok put simply ..... they are not banned ...... do you get that??
so?

Traction Control is probably the most sophisticated toy for a motogp bike but doesn't mean its ok.

I think it's great potentially to make road bikes safer for us... but we are not making millions every year racing for a factory team so why make it any easier for them.

If you let Gary McCoy on the 08 Kawasaki he would laugh at it

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (an4rew @ Feb 7 2008, 01:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If you let Gary McCoy on the 08 Kawasaki he would laugh at it

why do you think that!!??

I think an electronics ban would be terrible for the sport at the moment and would much prefer to see electronic limitations in place without the need for any control parts. I am not a programming expert (yet ) but if the teams supplied all their source code could there not be reasonable limits placed on the bikes, such as that they are not allowed to use GPS or Gyroscope (for example) inputs to alter their fuel maps?

Its often suggested that electronic limitations are too hard to police but i don't see how that is the case, and i just hope that action isn't taken too quickly based on the 2007 season. Having watched old videos and done some thinking over the winter i think that 2007 was actually more exciting than 02, 03 and 05, and it has suffered simply for the fact that it follwed the best season we've ever seen, and because the wrong guy won. i'm gonna give 2008 a fair chance rather than concluding that motogp is ruined by Stoner, Rossi, electronics or tyres.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Feb 16 2008, 12:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think an electronics ban would be terrible for the sport at the moment and would much prefer to see electronic limitations in place without the need for any control parts. I am not a programming expert (yet ) but if the teams supplied all their source code could there not be reasonable limits placed on the bikes, such as that they are not allowed to use GPS or Gyroscope (for example) inputs to alter their fuel maps?

Its often suggested that electronic limitations are too hard to police but i don't see how that is the case, and i just hope that action isn't taken too quickly based on the 2007 season. Having watched old videos and done some thinking over the winter i think that 2007 was actually more exciting than 02, 03 and 05, and it has suffered simply for the fact that it follwed the best season we've ever seen, and because the wrong guy won. i'm gonna give 2008 a fair chance rather than concluding that motogp is ruined by Stoner, Rossi, electronics or tyres.
Read back a few posts on this thread - the suggestion that direct throttle (ie no electronic intervention) and no GPS (or similar) to stop engine maps per corner is simple and easy to police, without the need for anything as drastic as an electronics ban.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Feb 16 2008, 11:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Read back a few posts on this thread - the suggestion that direct throttle (ie no electronic intervention) and no GPS (or similar) to stop engine maps per corner is simple and easy to police, without the need for anything as drastic as an electronics ban.

Well i think that direct throttle is a bit too restrictive, but cool Lets hope a reasonable compromise is reached.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Feb 16 2008, 12:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well i think that direct throttle is a bit too restrictive, but cool Lets hope a reasonable compromise is reached.
Why do you feel that direct throttle is too restrictive?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Feb 16 2008, 12:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Read back a few posts on this thread - the suggestion that direct throttle (ie no electronic intervention) and no GPS (or similar) to stop engine maps per corner is simple and easy to police, without the need for anything as drastic as an electronics ban.
Gyro, don't forget that. Unless "(or similar)" ment just that, because it is. Doesn't take much software to draw up the track based on the gyro measurements.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Feb 16 2008, 01:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Gyro, don't forget that. Unless "(or similar)" ment just that, because it is. Doesn't take much software to draw up the track based on the gyro measurements.
Yep, that was what the "or similar" was for. Basically anything which enables the electronics to know which corner the bike is in and adjust the engine map for the current corner rather than for the current gear.