Stoner says: It's about the money.

Tekniqs said:

none taken jumkie haha! i know the group of posters you are alluding to but i don't think you can deny there is also a group of posters that do the exact opposite.

would you say rossi had a lot to do with being on the 'best' bike since he's had a large part in developing and molding them into winners?

speaking of which, how was doohan when it came to developing bikes?

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Jumkie said:

Goat & Woods, first off good on u for not simply dismissing a counter opinion (though Woods, please see J4rnos take on test/ shoulder issue). 2nd, dont forget he had a rest day! Also, a test is so unlike a race, more like a practice. Very little pressure unlike a race. Remember, its only one hot lap that goes down as ur measure of position for the test. I said this before, surely after testing here and there he would hav attempted a few hot laps. Sure the shoulder may hav bothered, but for a lap or two he might put it aside which should b easier than doing that for a race distance. Woody, dont make mistake and say peeps r crucifying him, please couple this with Ducati's subsequent message. They indicate that Rossi struggled, there conclude they must "improve". Again last month at Jerez, what was the message, "we r here to help Rossi". We r not making this up, just pointing it out. It would hav been easier to say the shoulder was a big problem had the man not podiumed against a very hungry field.

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Goatboy said:

So you don't think that a having ridden for a whole weekend, then having to do two 12 hour days would effect him? That week he was effectively on a bike longer than he had been since the previous February tests at Sepang.

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johnnyvvc said:

Hi Kesh, hows the temp over there in the big Apple?



I aggree with pretty much all your post and i wasnt trying to say that the injury stopped him riding due to pain or fatigue although i think that did play a part for him as it probably did for DePuniet too.

However if you had an injury that if you fell hard on it again could end your career, would you go balls out on a bike you had never rode before that has a reputation for being a beast...i know i certainly wouldnt. Plus it seemed it was more of a familiarisation for him, he just didnt look the same. I think the people with yellow glasses were expecting him to blast the grid into the weeds & it just didnt happen, in fact quite the opposite.



If we look back at 2004 Rossi wasnt fast on the Yamaha right until the very last test & first race in Welkom. Pretty much the same as Stoner, he wasnt at the top of the time sheets unitl the Qatar (I need to check this as i cant remember fully), solets just wait & see shall we.

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Keshav said:

No reason he should be any more tired than the rest of the riders who rode faster times than him

during the tests... unless it's his advanced age. Is that it? Are you saying Uncle Rossi was in need

of a nap?

Didn't think so. No-one here would disagree that the shoulder injury might cost

him a couple hundredths of a second here and there. But lets face it - this is Rossi. The bike was

just not rideable. My post was not a dig at Vale - just an acknowledgement that he's got a big hill

to climb when it comes to being competitive on the Duc.

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woody996 said:

That comes down to the quality of the rider with the Michelin vs the quality of the rider with the Bridgestones in 07 so it is reasonable that pedrosa and Rossi would top the other riders.

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Tekniqs said:

why doesn't rossi get the same benefit of the doubt? it's doohan so he's praised for his DOMINATION. but when it's rossi, he's dominated the competition but mostly because of his supposed advantages...and how motogp is scripted (sorry jumkie lol)

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Goatboy said:

So you can't see how spending longer on the bike with that injury would effect him? Or you don't want to see?

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Keshav said:

No, I can't see how a guy who is (other than the shoulder injury) an incredibly fit athlete - can be

so much less competitive than guys of middling talent, after 24 hours of rest. Remember -

racers compete with worse injuries than Rossi's all the time. It's expected of them.



What's to argue here? Everyone across the board acknowledges that the Ducati is an idiosyncratic

and wanky bike to ride. There's no shame in Rossi being human. Most folks agree that Stoner's

ability to be competitive on the Duc was kind of freakish.



I don't doubt that given time along with efforts by Burgess - coupled with massive resources thrown

at the bike by Ducati - that Rossi will be able to turn the situation around. The difference will be that

Rossi, who is more mature than Stoner - with his developmental capacities - will be able to tame the

Ducati and make it a more manageable tool - as opposed to Stoner who rode around the Duc's weird

design like an artless cowboy - which over time burned him out.



And when Rossi does do his magic - the Boppers (yeah I said it) will be ....... unbearable.

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Talpa said:

So why did Rossi need to post the fastest-or a Faster time at the Valencia Test? No doubt he was seriously slow and he either couldn't or wouldn't, or maybe a bit of both.



Another timely reminder of the times in FP1 and FP2 and for the most part of QP from the round at Valencia this year. Rossi was also well behind the middlers on his M1 with all the data they have.



One thing I think that most are missing is that the Bike that Rossi was riding at that test is a direct product of Casey Stoner's development, as we know the artless cowboy is the reason why they have so much work to do, sure he was quick on it-but its clear after 4 years he didn't know how this was happening, or how to keep it happening. The Desmo has been on a downhill spiral since its glory days of 06-07, since Stoner has been no 1 rider. With 2010 being the ducks worst year ever. Whilst fronting up to every race with no injury Stoner still finished a distant 4th, last behind his fellow aliens with two of them seriously injured.



Clearly in 2010 Ducati started listening to Nicky who at least improved. Rossi obviously knew he would crash if he pushed for a quick time, and with a titanium pin in your leg and crucial shoulder surgery immanent, VR clearly felt his job was far different from the expectations on these test days.



Another very interesting point is the excuses being formed already about how Ducati is building a Rossified Ducati, and how unfair this is, and how they'll put so much more in than they did with Casey. Why wouldn't they? They've just signed the GOAT and his team for very large amounts of money, who are famous for developing pretty fast motorcycles and want to win more Motogp world titles. However I don't believe, and certainly from the strength of the bike in late 2005-2006-2007-2008 that Ducati has ever been anything more than deadly serious about their machine no matter who is on it. The problem might have been in the 'problem solving' ability, which is spearheaded by the no 1 rider. Of course there is no evidence to suggest that the same thing won't happen to Rossi next year or worse, but criticizing Ducati for desperately wanting to change is very difficult to do, they gave Casey plenty of success and vice-versa, but clearly they were spinning there wheels and needed some TC......

Sorry but if the input from the rider is not right then clearly the bike can't/won't consistently compete, and more importantly the commitment from the company to react to this input. The strength of the Honda can be certainly in part be credited to Dani and Dovi, and the Yamaha, well now the popular belief here is its all because of Jorge......

Suzuki though is certainly an example of the company not really giving a .... anymore.



Stoner on the engineers wet dream Honda, could certainly be a match made in heaven, Rider who just rides fast and the builders who know how to make him do it. Unless you believe that the rider is still more important and their key input is what makes a consistently faster motorcycle, and for this reason I will still be favoring Ducati and Yamaha for next year.....

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Talpa said:

So why did Rossi need to post the fastest-or a Faster time at the Valencia Test? No doubt he was seriously slow and he either couldn't or wouldn't, or maybe a bit of both.



Another timely reminder of the times in FP1 and FP2 and for the most part of QP from the round at Valencia this year. Rossi was also well behind the middlers on his M1 with all the data they have.



One thing I think that most are missing is that the Bike that Rossi was riding at that test is a direct product of Casey Stoner's development, as we know the artless cowboy is the reason why they have so much work to do, sure he was quick on it-but its clear after 4 years he didn't know how this was happening, or how to keep it happening. The Desmo has been on a downhill spiral since its glory days of 06-07, since Stoner has been no 1 rider. With 2010 being the ducks worst year ever. Whilst fronting up to every race with no injury Stoner still finished a distant 4th, last behind his fellow aliens with two of them seriously injured.



Clearly in 2010 Ducati started listening to Nicky who at least improved. Rossi obviously knew he would crash if he pushed for a quick time, and with a titanium pin in your leg and crucial shoulder surgery immanent, VR clearly felt his job was far different from the expectations on these test days.



Another very interesting point is the excuses being formed already about how Ducati is building a Rossified Ducati, and how unfair this is, and how they'll put so much more in than they did with Casey. Why wouldn't they? They've just signed the GOAT and his team for very large amounts of money, who are famous for developing pretty fast motorcycles and want to win more Motogp world titles. However I don't believe, and certainly from the strength of the bike in late 2005-2006-2007-2008 that Ducati has ever been anything more than deadly serious about their machine no matter who is on it. The problem might have been in the 'problem solving' ability, which is spearheaded by the no 1 rider. Of course there is no evidence to suggest that the same thing won't happen to Rossi next year or worse, but criticizing Ducati for desperately wanting to change is very difficult to do, they gave Casey plenty of success and vice-versa, but clearly they were spinning there wheels and needed some TC......

Sorry but if the input from the rider is not right then clearly the bike can't/won't consistently compete, and more importantly the commitment from the company to react to this input. The strength of the Honda can be certainly in part be credited to Dani and Dovi, and the Yamaha, well now the popular belief here is its all because of Jorge......

Suzuki though is certainly an example of the company not really giving a .... anymore.



Stoner on the engineers wet dream Honda, could certainly be a match made in heaven, Rider who just rides fast and the builders who know how to make him do it. Unless you believe that the rider is still more important and their key input is what makes a consistently faster motorcycle, and for this reason I will still be favoring Ducati and Yamaha for next year.....

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Keshav said:

Remember -

racers compete with worse injuries than Rossi's all the time. It's expected of them.

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Keshav said:

And when Rossi does do his magic - the Boppers (yeah I said it) will be ....... unbearable.

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Talpa said:

A

So why did Rossi need to post the fastest-or a Faster time at the Valencia Test? No doubt he was seriously slow and he either couldn't or wouldn't, or maybe a bit of both.



B.

Another timely reminder of the times in FP1 and FP2 and for the most part of QP from the round at Valencia this year. Rossi was also well behind the middlers on his M1 with all the data they have.





C

One thing I think that most are missing is that the Bike that Rossi was riding at that test is a direct product of Casey Stoner's development, as we know the artless cowboy is the reason why they have so much work to do, sure he was quick on it-but its clear after 4 years he didn't know how this was happening, or how to keep it happening. The Desmo has been on a downhill spiral since its glory days of 06-07, since Stoner has been no 1 rider. With 2010 being the ducks worst year ever. Whilst fronting up to every race with no injury Stoner still finished a distant 4th, last behind his fellow aliens with two of them seriously injured.



Clearly in 2010 Ducati started listening to Nicky who at least improved. Rossi obviously knew he would crash if he pushed for a quick time, and with a titanium pin in your leg and crucial shoulder surgery immanent, VR clearly felt his job was far different from the expectations on these test days.



D

Another very interesting point is the excuses being formed already about how Ducati is building a Rossified Ducati, and how unfair this is, and how they'll put so much more in than they did with Casey. Why wouldn't they? They've just signed the GOAT and his team for very large amounts of money, who are famous for developing pretty fast motorcycles and want to win more Motogp world titles. However I don't believe, and certainly from the strength of the bike in late 2005-2006-2007-2008 that Ducati has ever been anything more than deadly serious about their machine no matter who is on it. The problem might have been in the 'problem solving' ability, which is spearheaded by the no 1 rider. Of course there is no evidence to suggest that the same thing won't happen to Rossi next year or worse, but criticizing Ducati for desperately wanting to change is very difficult to do, they gave Casey plenty of success and vice-versa, but clearly they were spinning there wheels and needed some TC......

Sorry but if the input from the rider is not right then clearly the bike can't/won't consistently compete, and more importantly the commitment from the company to react to this input. The strength of the Honda can be certainly in part be credited to Dani and Dovi, and the Yamaha, well now the popular belief here is its all because of Jorge......

Suzuki though is certainly an example of the company not really giving a .... anymore.



Stoner on the engineers wet dream Honda, could certainly be a match made in heaven, Rider who just rides fast and the builders who know how to make him do it. Unless you believe that the rider is still more important and their key input is what makes a consistently faster motorcycle, and for this reason I will still be favoring Ducati and Yamaha for next year.....

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Frizzle said:

You wonder why everyone thinks you are delusional. Do you seriously think Stoner wanted a bike that was unstable at the front end? Do you think he said to Ducati - "hey look guys I know I keep losing the front, but hey lets do nothing about it"?

Do you seriously think he wanted a bike that didn't handle particularly well?

You are saying Stoner is responsible for the bikes development, yet he has already stated on more than one occasion that he pretty much had the same bike at the end of the championship as he had at the beginning.

Ducati did not have the resources to throw money at every problem they faced. Perhaps all the money that will follow Vale through sponsorship will change their philosophy on development, but in years past they have been overtaken by Yamaha & Honda.

This has nothing to do with anything besides funding.

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Tom said:

Thats is exactly my point

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Tom said:

Yes there is a reason. Rossi was unable to perform at his best due to the consequences of mistakes he made trying to match Lorenzo. That's racing, sometimes you get beaten, even on a level playing field.

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Talpa said:

I didn't say any of this at all, posts like this is the reason why this forum is getting very tedious, where did I say Casey wanted to lose the front all the time?? Point it out please.....you misquote and misinterpret then call me delusional.



I said that Stoner has had a key role in the development of that motorcycle, he was the No 1 rider was he not? Unless you think that Ducati just does it all themselves? If he knew why he was losing the front all the time I'm sure he would have fixed it pronto....Some know, some don't. Maybe Rossi won't even figure it out either.



I said that the bike that Rossi was riding is a result of Casey Stoners development, do you disagree with this? And no one believes that the bikes hasn't had significant updates and rebuilds since 2007, I'll name a few, Carbon fibre frame, big bang engine, hundreds of Marenelli SW upgrades, 4-5 new front ends.......Do you think that Ducati just went ahead and did all this without even looking at Casey's data and feedback??? Take a good look at what Pretzozi said after just two days with Rossi.



For point of debate, lets look at how Troy Bayliss jumped on the 2006 990 Desmo developed by Loris for the first time in 2 years and won the race at Valencia.......Freak performance yes, Freakishly good rider yes, but couldn't have happened without a very ridable motorcycle. Could we see this happen at present with a Ducati? I seriously doubt it. And its not from a lack of funding.



Seeing as you bring up resources and money, if Ducati didn't have significant resources and funding then how did they perform so well back in 2006-2007, even 2008? Yamaha and Honda weren't skimping back then either.....I'm sure your going to say they were only a result of Casey's extraordinary riding ability, but I'll ask anyway.....



Its easy for you to dismiss all evidence to the contrary to support your argument, but the fact is that Casey had 4 years and plenty of opportunity and support at Ducati, including a stack of wins and a world title....this doesn't come without significant investment from the manufacturer, not too mention the never ending money pit associated with a certain tobacco giant, adding to this the strongly rumoured allegiance with Ferrari. All in all, I would say the Japanese were the ones with their work cut out......

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RCV600RR said:

I don't think your interpretation is really supported by the facts. Rossi cannot really be described as making a mistake trying to 'match Lorenzo'.



These are the facta: Rossi was being tailed by Hector Barbera in Free Practice, Rossi pulled off to the side of the track so as not to let Barbera copy his lines. Several riders came past, so Rossi stayed out on the side, about 30 seconds, if I recall accurately. When he pulled out to resume his lap again, as soon as he applied the throttle on the corner exit, he highsided.



He wasn't trying to 'match Lorenzo', he wasn't even on a flying lap. Additionally, he had led the previous Free Practice session. He made a immature mistake by letting his tyre cool down and didn't let it warm up.

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Talpa said:

I didn't say any of this at all, posts like this is the reason why this forum is getting very tedious, where did I say Casey wanted to lose the front all the time?? Point it out please.....you misquote and misinterpret then call me delusional.



I said that Stoner has had a key role in the development of that motorcycle, he was the No 1 rider was he not? Unless you think that Ducati just does it all themselves? If he knew why he was losing the front all the time I'm sure he would have fixed it pronto....Some know, some don't. Maybe Rossi won't even figure it out either.



I said that the bike that Rossi was riding is a result of Casey Stoners development, do you disagree with this? And no one believes that the bikes hasn't had significant updates and rebuilds since 2007, I'll name a few, Carbon fibre frame, big bang engine, hundreds of Marenelli SW upgrades, 4-5 new front ends.......Do you think that Ducati just went ahead and did all this without even looking at Casey's data and feedback??? Take a good look at what Pretzozi said after just two days with Rossi.



For point of debate, lets look at how Troy Bayliss jumped on the 2006 990 Desmo developed by Loris for the first time in 2 years and won the race at Valencia.......Freak performance yes, Freakishly good rider yes, but couldn't have happened without a very ridable motorcycle. Could we see this happen at present with a Ducati? I seriously doubt it. And its not from a lack of funding.



Seeing as you bring up resources and money, if Ducati didn't have significant resources and funding then how did they perform so well back in 2006-2007, even 2008? Yamaha and Honda weren't skimping back then either.....I'm sure your going to say they were only a result of Casey's extraordinary riding ability, but I'll ask anyway.....



Its easy for you to dismiss all evidence to the contrary to support your argument, but the fact is that Casey had 4 years and plenty of opportunity and support at Ducati, including a stack of wins and a world title....this doesn't come without significant investment from the manufacturer, not too mention the never ending money pit associated with a certain tobacco giant, adding to this the strongly rumoured allegiance with Ferrari. All in all, I would say the Japanese were the ones with their work cut out......

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