Stoner says: It's about the money.

dwoodhouse · Dec 3, 2010

Tom said:
Rossi was beaten by his team mate this year and then moved to a bike and couldn't go nearly as quickly as the outgoing rider. Those two men are a serious threat, and you may not agree but it is not unthinkable that someone else may believe on totally level terms those men would beat Rossi (as one of them just has).

I disagree, although we all enjoy the excitement of a last race showdown a real lover of the sport will appreciate that all rounds are worth the same and if the title is decided early then that is an impressive feat in itself

Yes Rossi was beaten by his team mate however when he was fit, he beat his team mate on the same bike. We don't know how the year would have gone if he was uninjured (not just the leg before people start quoting that he only missed four races). So maybe he doesn't need an advantage to come out on top - it makes it easier though.

In relation to your second point. Yes all rounds are equal but if you want to keep more fans involved in the sport for more of the year, generating more income for the sport, more anticipation and more atmosphere, then you don't want a winner halfway through the season.

dwoodhouse · Dec 3, 2010

Mental Anarchist said:
In my opinion Inam there are 2 riders on the grid who are equally as fast if not faster than Rossi.

What has passed so far is that the Ducati is not of a set up that Rossi can ride fast. This can be determined by the results of the test and the subsequent media reports of a full front end redesign along with comments such as "Ducati must improve" etc etc.

My comments were that for Rossi to win against the current fast crop of riders he will not do it on talent alone because if he could a redesign would not be required. Rossi will need a Ducati which is a better bike than the Honda or the Yamaha. If Ducati produce this bike and Rossi wins on it then in my opinion he will have won because of the bike. If Ducati don't produce that bike then I am quite certain that you and the yellow army will be saying that it is because of the bike that Rossi lost.

Tell me are you prepared to give up all rights to claim that Rossi lost because of the bike if he does indeed not win the 2011 WC and are you prepared to concede that Rossi was beaten straight up by better riders in the event that he does not win the 2011 WC?

I think he only needs a bike equal to that of his rivals. You clearly believe that the bike has to be better to make up for a deficiency in Rossi.

Tom · Dec 3, 2010

woody996 said:
Yes Rossi was beaten by his team mate however when he was fit, he beat his team mate on the same bike. We don't know how the year would have gone if he was uninjured (not just the leg before people start quoting that he only missed four races). So maybe he doesn't need an advantage to come out on top - it makes it easier though.

Yes when Rossi was better than Lorenzo, he was better. But that was last year, and in 2010 he was not better than Lorenzo. He beat him in a few races when fit, but Lorenzo beat him in plenty more. I don't think Rossi necessarily needs a machinary advantage to win, but i don't think its an unreasonable conclusion at all.

In relation to your second point. Yes all rounds are equal but if you want to keep more fans involved in the sport for more of the year, generating more income for the sport, more anticipation and more atmosphere, then you don't want a winner halfway through the season.

I don't think domination is the enemy of sport, particularly to the more dedicated and knowledgable (or 'true') fans. I understand the commercial value of a competition with no clear leader, but people like Rossi do well to show the other side of that argument.

johnnyvvc · Dec 3, 2010

Knowone likes a runaway winner unless there is good racing along the way.

03,05,07 were prime examples of seasons that were not that good. 04,06 were good seasons as there was no runaway winner & there was some good racing for the most part.

BarryMachine · Dec 3, 2010

johnnyvvc said:
Stoner won because of the bike right, wrong. He won yes because he had advantage in terms of machinery

This is the bit that has been hotly debated snce 07.

In 07 this was a cry of the Boppers, but it had to be questioned as Capi did not show the bike had any advantage.

In 08 Melandri proved the oposite, that the Duc. was not a good bike, but it was still not enogh for the Boppers.

In 09 Hayden was going to be able to ride it just like Stoner ....... most "other fans' started believing what the riders all said back in 07 ..... "its not the bike ..... its Stoner" ....... the boppers still didn't believe it.

In 10, well everyoe wanted to see Rossi on the Ducati, "that would show the Stoner fans that Stoner isn't as amazing as it was increasingly looking!" ........ Come the end of 2010 tests, Rossi has the worst debut of all tme ............ the boppers are still in denial .........

Its going to take a title win in 2011 for Stoner to ever quell the whinging of at least 1% of the boppers

Mental Anarchist · Dec 3, 2010

woody996 said:
I think he only needs a bike equal to that of his rivals. You clearly believe that the bike has to be better to make up for a deficiency in Rossi.

I do not think it is a deficiency in Rossi at all. What I do think is that Stoner and Lorenzo being in the prime of their career are developing an edge on Rossi. There is no shame in this. Rossi has been the best and beaten all who have showed up on the grid. It would be foolish to think this would continue for ever. I might well be proven wrong as has been done in the past and no doubt will happen again. To be honest in this case I would like to be proven wrong because I would think it appropriate for a rider such as Rossi to go out a champion. I just don't think it will happen. The young guns are just too good.

Just look towards 2012. Spies will be in his 3rd year and so will Sic. Both of these guys have the mental capacity to win championships and they have the talent to back it up. It will be highly likely that either Stoner or Lorenzo will be a multiple MotoGP WC. Suzuki might produce a decent 1000cc bike for Bautista who I believe can run at the front. DePuniet might just get a factory ride and be very dangerous .All these guys are super hungry and super talented.

Talpa · Dec 3, 2010

Mental Anarchist said:
I do not think it is a deficiency in Rossi at all. What I do think is that Stoner and Lorenzo being in the prime of their career are developing an edge on Rossi. There is no shame in this. Rossi has been the best and beaten all who have showed up on the grid. It would be foolish to think this would continue for ever. I might well be proven wrong as has been done in the past and no doubt will happen again. To be honest in this case I would like to be proven wrong because I would think it appropriate for a rider such as Rossi to go out a champion. I just don't think it will happen. The young guns are just too good.

Just look towards 2012. Spies will be in his 3rd year and so will Sic. Both of these guys have the mental capacity to win championships and they have the talent to back it up. It will be highly likely that either Stoner or Lorenzo will be a multiple MotoGP WC. Suzuki might produce a decent 1000cc bike for Bautista who I believe can run at the front. DePuniet might just get a factory ride and be very dangerous .All these guys are super hungry and super talented.

Now that you've expained your subjectivity a little better I can agree that the talent is certainly very good, the best it's been for a while. However to proclaim that they are 'too good' is taking it over the unproven edge, these noises have been made before, particularly in 2006-2007. And whilst age is catching up it's only bias that can make one state that Rossi is no longer good enough to win another championship, some have even credited 2010 as one of his best years ever considering circumstances.

Anders · Dec 3, 2010

Could Stoner be talking about Philip Morris/Marlboro hesitating to funding to a degree because of his way of handling media and the not so well handled public explanation to his illness-leave.

They are paying for the whole thing in Moto GP,right?

I'm not surprised the best,most wanted name in motorsports Valentino Rossi would make Marlboro pay up without too much hesitation.Now they have the two of the most pr-friendly riders there is.

Ducati (the company)is doing swell as far as i've heard at least.

Then again,as Stoner sais,hasn't HRC's strength been that they can afford to follow up several different directions in some areas at the same time,and have for a long time.I read somewhere that a HRC boss said something like:Any technical solution out there,we have tried them all out.

The optimum would ofcourse be Rossi/Burgess at Honda ,look at the Honda 990 in 2005,2006.It will probarbly be hard to beat that machine ever.IMHO.

dwoodhouse · Dec 3, 2010

Mental Anarchist said:
I do not think it is a deficiency in Rossi at all. What I do think is that Stoner and Lorenzo being in the prime of their career are developing an edge on Rossi. There is no shame in this. Rossi has been the best and beaten all who have showed up on the grid. It would be foolish to think this would continue for ever. I might well be proven wrong as has been done in the past and no doubt will happen again. To be honest in this case I would like to be proven wrong because I would think it appropriate for a rider such as Rossi to go out a champion. I just don't think it will happen. The young guns are just too good.

Just look towards 2012. Spies will be in his 3rd year and so will Sic. Both of these guys have the mental capacity to win championships and they have the talent to back it up. It will be highly likely that either Stoner or Lorenzo will be a multiple MotoGP WC. Suzuki might produce a decent 1000cc bike for Bautista who I believe can run at the front. DePuniet might just get a factory ride and be very dangerous .All these guys are super hungry and super talented.

Yes I do agree that Stoner and Lorenzo are in the prime of their career. I don't believe Rossi is waning just yet. Look at Mick Doohan and Troy Bayliss who were old enough to take the pension when they retired. The question then needs to be asked would Mick and Troy have the same success at that same 'old' age as they did in their day coming up against the current motogp field?

Rossi will wane at some point. I hope when the time comes he calls it a day instead of circulating for 10th position like Capirossi. Some people say that the waning has started however I think that not even a remotely accurate assessment could be made of that in 2010. It would have been nice for him to have one more season at Yamaha injury free and that would have been a lot more useful in figuring out where he is at.

Lorenzo and Stoner are not unbeatable. Lorenzo went AWOL in part of the season and then finished strongly. Stoner tends to push harder than the bike would like at times. Pedrosa is beaten unless he gets away, still hasn't figured out what dicing is and how to come out on top.

dwoodhouse · Dec 3, 2010

Tom said:
Yes when Rossi was better than Lorenzo, he was better. But that was last year, and in 2010 he was not better than Lorenzo. He beat him in a few races when fit, but Lorenzo beat him in plenty more. I don't think Rossi necessarily needs a machinary advantage to win, but i don't think its an unreasonable conclusion at all.

I don't think domination is the enemy of sport, particularly to the more dedicated and knowledgable (or 'true') fans. I understand the commercial value of a competition with no clear leader, but people like Rossi do well to show the other side of that argument.

Fair enough with your first comment. 2010 Rossi was lacking for a lot of the season but there was a reason for that - not an excuse.

Yes Rossi did build up a huge fan base partly through his success/domination but equally through his personality and the 'show' that he liked to put on. Mick Doohan didn't have the same fan base through his years of domination. I guess he was from that rock out in the middle of nowhere called Australia though.

dwoodhouse · Dec 3, 2010

BarryMachine said:
This is the bit that has been hotly debated snce 07.

In 07 this was a cry of the Boppers, but it had to be questioned as Capi did not show the bike had any advantage.

In 08 Melandri proved the oposite, that the Duc. was not a good bike, but it was still not enogh for the Boppers.

In 09 Hayden was going to be able to ride it just like Stoner ....... most "other fans' started believing what the riders all said back in 07 ..... "its not the bike ..... its Stoner" ....... the boppers still didn't believe it.

In 10, well everyoe wanted to see Rossi on the Ducati, "that would show the Stoner fans that Stoner isn't as amazing as it was increasingly looking!" ........ Come the end of 2010 tests, Rossi has the worst debut of all tme ............ the boppers are still in denial .........

Its going to take a title win in 2011 for Stoner to ever quell the whinging of at least 1% of the boppers

Stoner gelled with the Duc because of his ability to ride quickly on ..... That combined with the Ducati's speed and tyre advantage in 07 made him pretty much unbeatable that year. I don't think anyone else could get the same out of that bike in the current field but I don't think that Stoner would be any better on a well setup bike in comparison to Pedrosa, Lorenzo, Rossi. If anything, Pedrosa may very well come out on top due to him being the size of my left pinky finger.

inam22 · Dec 3, 2010

Tom said:
Rossi was beaten by his team mate this year and then moved to a bike and couldn't go nearly as quickly as the outgoing rider. Those two men are a serious threat, and you may not agree but it is not unthinkable that someone else may believe on totally level terms those men would beat Rossi (as one of them just has).

No doubt Rossi was beaten by his mate this year but you can't miss the fact that he was riding injured all season apart from first race in Qatar.

As far as your second point goes did you really thought Rossi will be quicker than outgoing rider (Stoner) who spent four years on Ducati.

povol · Dec 3, 2010

inam said:
No doubt Rossi was beaten by his mate this year but you can't miss the fact that he was riding injured all season apart from first race in Qatar.

As far as your second point goes did you really thought Rossi will be quicker than outgoing rider (Stoner) who spent four years on Ducati.

No, but everybody, including you, didnt expect him to be battling Karl Abraham for the 15th fastest time. If Rossi fans will be true to themselves, they would admit t they were expecting Rossi to at least be in the top 5 in that test.

BarryMachine · Dec 3, 2010

woody996 said:
That combined with the Ducati's speed and tyre advantage in 07 made him pretty much unbeatable that year.

Well none of the folk in the paddock said that, they allsaid it was Stoner. And all the other riders of Ducati's must have been absolute crap

Rossi may say all the stuff the Boppers want to hear but when crunch time came ( riding the Duc. ) .......... real logic ( not bopper logic ) prevailed

ie. Rossi was talking through his hat about the Ducati, which is odd because he was hailing Stoner back in 07.

dwoodhouse · Dec 3, 2010

BarryMachine said:
Well none of the folk in the paddock said that, they allsaid it was Stoner. And all the other riders of Ducati's must have been absolute crap

Rossi may say all the stuff the Boppers want to hear but when crunch time came ( riding the Duc. ) .......... real logic ( not bopper logic ) prevailed

ie. Rossi was talking through his hat about the Ducati, which is odd because he was hailing Stoner back in 07.

I'll take it slow for you Barry. Bridgestones were the tyre to be on in 07.

The ducati was a lot quicker in a straight line than the yamaha.

Only stoner could ride the thing quickly and how it was meant to be ridden. Full credit for that - he was the only one capable of exploiting the advantage that year. Noone else could.

BarryMachine · Dec 3, 2010

woody996 said:
I'll take it slow for you Barry. Bridgestones were the tyre to be on in 07.

The ducati was a lot quicker in a straight line than the yamaha.

Only stoner could ride the thing quickly and how it was meant to be ridden. Full credit for that - he was the only one capable of exploiting the advantage that year. Noone else could.

Because they had so many competitors up near the front ?

The ole "fast in a straight line myth again eh?"

Drag em out agan and they'll get shot down in flames again

or better still you do a search of those "done/settled" myths/fairytales on here

dwoodhouse · Dec 3, 2010

BarryMachine said:
Because they had so many competitors up near the front ?

The ole "fast in a straight line myth again eh?"

Drag em out agan and they'll get shot down in flames again

or better still you do a search of those "done/settled" myths/fairytales on here

Clearly you must be blind typing with your Braille keyboard

Tekniqs · Dec 3, 2010

eh i expected valentino to at least be in the top 10 his first test...but like alex briggs twitted..."the rider's body was failing and that's mostly the reason for the lap times"...not exact quote but the same message.

BRING ON SEPANG!

Goatboy · Dec 4, 2010

woody996 said:
Clearly you must be blind typing with your Braille keyboard

No he just didn't start watching until June 2007 (see the date he joined the forum), so he didn't actually see the long straights at Qatar or China. I mean that's the only reason I can think of for that statement...other than the fact he's a .......

johnnyvvc · Dec 4, 2010

povol said:
No, but everybody, including you, didnt expect him to be battling Karl Abraham for the 15th fastest time. If Rossi fans will be true to themselves, they would admit t they were expecting Rossi to at least be in the top 5 in that test.

To expect him to be top 5 when there are at least 5 to 6 guys who are at the top of thier game, not injured, on top spec bikes, riding in form etc etc is a bit nieve, if thats how you spell it?

He is good but he no ....... magician, although i was expecting top ten.

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