Sorry i wasn't clear enough, i completely agree with your take that it was uncharacteristic mistake from Rossi, which he has to take some responsibility as well especially he has so much experience but i don't think its fair when people like Tom put down his crash purely due to pressure.
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Sorry i wasn't clear enough, i completely agree with your take that it was uncharacteristic mistake from Rossi, which he has to take some responsibility as well especially he has so much experience but i don't think its fair when people like Tom put down his crash purely due to pressure.
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Ah i see. Fair enuf. Yes, well. Honestly its all speculative. Perhaps Rossi wasnt thinking of tthe championship fight and simply lost track of the time he slowed down, which effected tire temp. In other words just a human mistake.. Who knows. I dont think Tom is saying it was ONLY pressure. But i leave it to him to clarify. But inam, i will say this, if u believe it wasnt as much pressure as a mere mistake, then we cant go around claiming Rossi is a machine of percision when in those rare moments he does make a mistake under pressure. Do u see what im saying? Its not fair to say, well this was just a mistake, but then for example (and i dont want to redebate the whole thing) but again 'for example' when he went off track in the now infamous corkscrew pass, we can admit it was a mistake. In other words, what im saying is if we r to accept he makes human mistakes, then we should admit in other cases as well. What do u think?
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Can you clarify what you mean by take some responsibility? I would have thought full responsibility but maybe I am missing something. From my recollection there was no one besides Rossi riding the #46 Fiat Yamaha at the time.
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yep, but a lot of rossi fans still expect a proper apology from bridgestone and who ever for messing up rossis season
i think it all boils down to the simple question : would you accept that every rider makes mistakes under such high pressure circumstances or do you insist that there is someone above human nature?
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I think the bone of contention here is whether Rossi made the mistake under pressure or not. I believe it was not made under pressure even though I believe he is capable of screwing up under pressure (2006 valencia GP)
It was rider error so yeah you right full repossibility lies with Rossi and if i can recall correctly he did admitted as well at time that it was his mistake that led to the crash.
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honestly i don't get what you're onto with the question of pressure.i mean they're racing in the world championship isn't there always pressure?if he had been cruising around like he was going to the shops nothing would have happened but i think by now most of us agree that it was simply asking a little too much of the tyres (=riding error) which ended badly,after all rossi said so himself
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I am on to this:
Every rider makes mistakes. We all agree on that. The entire discussion was on - "Whether Rossi made the mistake under pressure or not under pressure". I hope you GOT that.
You mentioned pressure
I don't think the crash was completely due to pressure. But we know Rossi was under pressure (perhaps the worst he has faced) at the time, and we know Rossi made a very uncharacteristic error, i big one. I don't think these two things are unrelated, in fact i think the link is significant. The other side of the fence is clear as woody explains. Rossi made an error independant of the circumstances and was simply unlucky, in the same way he is lucky to have had all his previous success and good health. I don't subscribe to that theory myself because i've always been sceptical with use of 'luck' as a label for events that are slightly out of the ordinary.
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I think there is an element of luck in ALL racing. Where it comes in & starts to effect things is where things get cloudy.
Personally i think it was a bit of both, Rossi did screw up as he himself said, BUT where the luck comes in is how he was injured, there are no certainties when it comes to falling off a motorcycle...trust me ive fell off enough to get it down to a bloody art form!
Good case is when Lorenzo had his 2 crashes, they were meteoric, both of em but he only broke ankles & had mild concussion, i think some poeple forget the injuries he suffered as they were quite nasty, but they only ruled him out of the race weekend he was taking part in, this is the element of luck in my opinion as Jorge probably hit the concrete not run off as hard as if not harder than Rossi did. He did well to ride a week later really - tough kid!
His mistake was to give it to much throttle on a cold tyre due to backing off (Not on a flyer & in practise), i guess you could argue that it was just down to luck that the tyre decided enough was enough but i put it down to a schoolboy error...one that he paid a very high price for.
He isnt unfallable & he has made mistakes before, he made one then & im 110% sure he will make many more but its part of how these guys find the limits & the sport they take part in. Best case is Stoner - Full throttle, if i crash ive found the limit! Simples.
As for the Lorenzo element, my take on it that if he was on a flyer or in quali or somin simlar, then yes he made a mistake under pressure from a rival & the situation (Valencia 06), but i think as he wasnt on a flyer i think he just made a schoolboy error & paid the second to ultimate price - lost the title.
Personally i think it was a bit of both, Rossi did screw up as he himself said, BUT where the luck comes in is how he was injured, there are no certainties when it comes to falling off a motorcycle...trust me ive fell off enough to get it down to a bloody art form!
Good case is when Lorenzo had his 2 crashes, they were meteoric, both of em but he only broke ankles & had mild concussion, i think some poeple forget the injuries he suffered as they were quite nasty, but they only ruled him out of the race weekend he was taking part in, this is the element of luck in my opinion as Jorge probably hit the concrete not run off as hard as if not harder than Rossi did. He did well to ride a week later really - tough kid!
His mistake was to give it to much throttle on a cold tyre due to backing off (Not on a flyer & in practise), i guess you could argue that it was just down to luck that the tyre decided enough was enough but i put it down to a schoolboy error...one that he paid a very high price for.
He isnt unfallable & he has made mistakes before, he made one then & im 110% sure he will make many more but its part of how these guys find the limits & the sport they take part in. Best case is Stoner - Full throttle, if i crash ive found the limit! Simples.
As for the Lorenzo element, my take on it that if he was on a flyer or in quali or somin simlar, then yes he made a mistake under pressure from a rival & the situation (Valencia 06), but i think as he wasnt on a flyer i think he just made a schoolboy error & paid the second to ultimate price - lost the title.
You see thats where i don't agree with your take on this matter where you say that Lorenzo was put extra pressure this year but to me Lorenzo didn't do any thing different early in the season which he hadn't done in first 2 seasons. He has led Rossi before early in the season if i remember correctly.
I will throw another speculation, what about his shoulder injury played a part in his crash and the crashes after he made his comeback as well.
I think the frankly stupid nature of the current bikes/formula, and the performance characteristics of the current tyres had a fair bit to do with it. This was also a crash fairly characteristic of crashes rossi has had through his career, rare though they are, which are usually on cold tyres and not in the heat of battle. Perhaps the pressure being brought to bear by jorge made him inattentive, but that is about as far as I would take it. He did crash in races in 2009, and more than his usual once a season, and I think that can reasonably be ascribed to pressure applied by jorge which was perhaps greater than that applied by any previous valentino competitor, although rossi obviously applied rather considerable pressure in return.
The bottom line still applies though imo, as with mick doohan, if he wanted to win the championship it would have been wise not to crash, and the fact that he crashed takes no credit from jorge who rode a near perfect season, as rossi did in 2008 and other previous seasons.
As an aside, I observe on this thread that rossi slowing so as not to give a slower rider a tow is accepted as perfectly reasonable, whilst casey stoner is routinely condemned for the same thing
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As an aside, I observe on this thread that rossi slowing so as not to give a slower rider a tow is accepted as perfectly reasonable, whilst casey stoner is routinely condemned for the same thing.
I think you missed the point of what people condemn for - It's not the fact that Stoner slows down to break a tow, it's the FREQUENT angry gesticulations that he was spewing out. He hasn't done it for a while so to me he's allowed the odd occurrence as is everyone else. If he starts doing it every second time he jumps on the bike then I'm sure he'll cop a ribbing. Everyone gets annoyed, gives the occasional finger or punch in the head in certain cases during their career. Stoner copped flak because it seemed to be his norm. He would be an angry ...... to cut off in the traffic on the way to work.
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Chops and myself actually did cut him off in bumper to bumper traffic, while he was on his way from work! No ......... He smiled actually, but he did roll up the window rather in haste.
Yes i am aware of the good observation from another thread that Lorenzo has lead Rossi early in the season before, however i think the threat was much more serious this season. We knew it at the time, as did Rossi. The rivalry has been getting increasingly fierce ever since Lorenzo joined motogp, it got worse when Lorenzo got Bridgestones, worse still when Lorenzo got equal equipment from mid way through the 09 season and even more so at the start of this year with data not being shared and Lorenzo having 2 consecutive wins. I think Rossi was looking to assert his authority on home ground and that extends to all the practice sessions, and led to a mistake.
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No he had been running slower but then was just beginning a fast lap. Thats what JB said of the telemetry.
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