Stoner says: It's about the money.

Mental Anarchist · Dec 5, 2010

woody996 said:
+1

The facts are exactly like you have said. The spin is that he crashed trying to match Lorenzo because Lorenzo was ahead in the championship. What if he had crashed his car on the way to the racetrack? Would that also be tied back to Lorenzo - i.e. he was rushing to the track because he was desparate to catch his teammate?

Come on peoples. People accuse Rossi fans of bias however putting a spin on the crash like this is, without question, biased.

Rossi made a stupid mistake/misjudgement and paid the price.

I don't disagree with you but just to give a view that has been used back in 08 when Stoner crashed out of the lead in a couple of races post Laguna it was argued that he crash due to the pressure from Rossi. This pressure was being applied from 3-5 seconds back with an opening gap. To one side of the debate this pressure was considered a rational argument. I don't see it as too dis-similar to the argument put forward now.

In my opinion many of Rossi's actions and comments of late are a direct result of the pressure being applied by the competition. This is fine if you acknowledge that he is human.

inam22 · Dec 5, 2010

Mental Anarchist said:
I don't disagree with you but just to give a view that has been used back in 08 when Stoner crashed out of the lead in a couple of races post Laguna it was argued that he crash due to the pressure from Rossi. This pressure was being applied from 3-5 seconds back with an opening gap. To one side of the debate this pressure was considered a rational argument. I don't see it as too dis-similar to the argument put forward now.

In my opinion many of Rossi's actions and comments of late are a direct result of the pressure being applied by the competition. This is fine if you acknowledge that he is human.

Just for you kind information those gaps were 1.1 seconds in Brno and 2.9 seconds in Misano not 3 to 5 seconds.

Jumkie · Dec 5, 2010

woody996 said:
+1

The facts are exactly like you have said. The spin is that he crashed trying to match Lorenzo because Lorenzo was ahead in the championship. What if he had crashed his car on the way to the racetrack? Would that also be tied back to Lorenzo - i.e. he was rushing to the track because he was desparate to catch his teammate?

Come on peoples. People accuse Rossi fans of bias however putting a spin on the crash like this is, without question, biased.

Rossi made a stupid mistake/misjudgement and paid the price.

Woods, u make a decent point. So why is it when Stoner crashes out come this 'particular' group calling it folding to pressure? Can we apply their 'standard' to Rossis Mugello crash? Do u remember when Stoner crashed while leading a few GPs, out came the explanation by this group that it was Stoner folding to Rossis pressure. Yet, as RCV600 said in Rossi/Lorenzo case, they wernt actually battling. Yet the stretch in correlation was made by a very similar reasoning that u and RCV600 say in Rossis case is a bit of a stretch when it came to Stoner previously ( not saying u two hav, but its a matter of record that certain Rossi fans hav made that stretch). I agree with u guys in the sense that its not directly, but indirectly the battle for the championship was on, and the fact is, this also extends to practice session before the event. Its disingenious for some peeps that r of a peculiar type of Rossi fan now fail to apply similar logic they applied to Stoner. Pressure felt during practice to prepare for the race is realated to the championship fight.

inam22 · Dec 5, 2010

Jumkie said:
Woods, u make a decent point. So why is it when Stoner crashes out come this 'particular' group calling it folding to pressure? Can we apply their 'standard' to Rossis Mugello crash? Do u remember when Stoner crashed while leading a few GPs, out came the explanation by this group that it was Stoner folding to Rossis pressure. Yet, as RCV600 said in Rossi/Lorenzo case, they wernt actually battling. Yet the stretch in correlation was made by a very similar reasoning that u and RCV600 say in Rossis case is a bit of a stretch when it came to Stoner previously ( not saying u two hav, but its a matter of record that certain Rossi fans hav made that stretch). I agree with u guys in the sense that its not directly, but indirectly the battle for the championship was on, and the fact is, this also extends to practice session before the event. Its disingenious for some peeps that r of a peculiar type of Rossi fan now fail to apply similar logic they applied to Stoner. Pressure felt during practice to prepare for the race is realated to the championship fight.

What pressure you talking about Jumkie? Rossi wasn't even on flying lap .When Lorenzo crashed on his sighting lap in Mugello or Casey crashed on warm up lap in Valencia what i can recall nobody said that both crashed due to pressure.

dwoodhouse · Dec 5, 2010

BarryMachine said:
What did Pretzozi say after just two days with Rossi.?

It was all pretty gloom and doom

ie. things like we didn't go as well as it should have etc. etc. etc. and we have work to do .......... what is your point on this

do you take that, or indeed anything from the Valencia test as a positive for DucaRossi?

The positive from the test is that there is only one way for Rossi to go - up. He can't go backwards from there.

dwoodhouse · Dec 5, 2010

Mental Anarchist said:
I don't disagree with you but just to give a view that has been used back in 08 when Stoner crashed out of the lead in a couple of races post Laguna it was argued that he crash due to the pressure from Rossi. This pressure was being applied from 3-5 seconds back with an opening gap. To one side of the debate this pressure was considered a rational argument. I don't see it as too dis-similar to the argument put forward now.

In my opinion many of Rossi's actions and comments of late are a direct result of the pressure being applied by the competition. This is fine if you acknowledge that he is human.

Jumkie said:
Woods, u make a decent point. So why is it when Stoner crashes out come this 'particular' group calling it folding to pressure? Can we apply their 'standard' to Rossis Mugello crash? Do u remember when Stoner crashed while leading a few GPs, out came the explanation by this group that it was Stoner folding to Rossis pressure. Yet, as RCV600 said in Rossi/Lorenzo case, they wernt actually battling. Yet the stretch in correlation was made by a very similar reasoning that u and RCV600 say in Rossis case is a bit of a stretch when it came to Stoner previously ( not saying u two hav, but its a matter of record that certain Rossi fans hav made that stretch). I agree with u guys in the sense that its not directly, but indirectly the battle for the championship was on, and the fact is, this also extends to practice session before the event. Its disingenious for some peeps that r of a peculiar type of Rossi fan now fail to apply similar logic they applied to Stoner. Pressure felt during practice to prepare for the race is realated to the championship fight.

I do see a practice crash where the crasher isn't on a flying lap a bit different to a race lap where the leader is trying to break or get away from the pursuer. That's why I don't see them quite the same.

There is more of a case to argue that the first crash of Stoner's was subject to pressure as the gap was a lot closer but I think it is harder to argue about the second where the gap was much larger and Stoner's focus would normally be about gap management, if Stoner knows what that is. Stoner I think likes to gap people into oblivion if he can.

There's a case to argue that Stoner's crashes were due to pressure and a case to argue that they weren't given Stoner's riding style as described above. The key difference to me personally is Stoner was at race pace trying to break away, Rossi was not on a flyer, was just trying to get his tyres warmed up after letting through Barbara so on that particular lap, he would not have been trying to beat anyone.

Jumkie · Dec 5, 2010

inam said:
What pressure you talking about Jumkie? Rossi wasn't even on flying lap .When Lorenzo crashed on his sighting lap in Mugello or Casey crashed on warm up lap in Valencia what i can recall nobody said that both crashed due to pressure.

Uhm, why u bringing up Stoners Valencia warm up crash? But even then, it was chalked up to mental weakness by some. Stoner while leading GPs in 08, even this year at Qatar, saying h was trying to clear away so as not to hav to deal with a Rossi battle. Infact, it seemed to be the theme after Laguna 08, that Stoner was afraid to close race Rossi and so tried to clear out resulting in some crashes since then.

Inam, can u make the connection that the championship pressure extends to practice? Flying lap or not, the entire session is spent preparing to answer to the championship battle in which Rossi was engaged with Lorenzo at the time. That pressure. The pressure to prepare for the race to dual ur rival. Hav u ever seen these guys get pissed when another rider screws up a lap or follows them? Why would that be inam. Perhaps its because while on the track its high stakes pressure? That pressure.

Jumkie · Dec 5, 2010

inam said:
What pressure you talking about Jumkie? Rossi wasn't even on flying lap .When Lorenzo crashed on his sighting lap in Mugello or Casey crashed on warm up lap in Valencia what i can recall nobody said that both crashed due to pressure.

Uhm, why u bringing up Stoners Valencia warm up crash? But even then, it was chalked up to mental weakness by some. Stoner while leading GPs in 08, even this year at Qatar, saying h was trying to clear away so as not to hav to deal with a Rossi battle. Infact, it seemed to be the theme after Laguna 08, that Stoner was afraid to close race Rossi and so tried to clear out resulting in some crashes since then.

Inam, can u make the connection that the championship pressure extends to practice? Flying lap or not, the entire session is spent preparing to answer to the championship battle in which Rossi was engaged with Lorenzo at the time. That pressure. The pressure to prepare for the race to dual ur rival. Hav u ever seen these guys get pissed when another rider screws up a lap or follows them? Why would that be inam. Perhaps its because while on the track its high stakes pressure? That pressure.

Jumkie · Dec 5, 2010

woody996 said:
I do see a practice crash where the crasher isn't on a flying lap a bit different to a race lap where the leader is trying to break or get away from the pursuer. That's why I don't see them quite the same.

There is more of a case to argue that the first crash of Stoner's was subject to pressure as the gap was a lot closer but I think it is harder to argue about the second where the gap was much larger and Stoner's focus would normally be about gap management, if Stoner knows what that is. Stoner I think likes to gap people into oblivion if he can.

There's a case to argue that Stoner's crashes were due to pressure and a case to argue that they weren't given Stoner's riding style as described above. The key difference to me personally is Stoner was at race pace trying to break away, Rossi was not on a flyer, was just trying to get his tyres warmed up after letting through Barbara so on that particular lap, he would not have been trying to beat anyone.

Fair enuf. Certainly, the pressure during the race is easier to correlate as is the pressure during practice. But nonetheless the case can be made. Like i said, i agree that. Its a stretch, but God knows the other side has routinely STRETCHED the cause for some of Stoners crashes. The fact is practice is the building pressure that climaxes during the race, so its not out of possibility that Rossis preocupation of being locked into a title fight with his teammate may hav been a factor in him trying to prepare and tst the limits during practice. This correlates to any activity engaged in competition. So no, not the kind of pressure from a close ontrack battle, but yes, certainly from the bigger picture of championship.

Jumkie · Dec 5, 2010

woody996 said:
I do see a practice crash where the crasher isn't on a flying lap a bit different to a race lap where the leader is trying to break or get away from the pursuer. That's why I don't see them quite the same.

There is more of a case to argue that the first crash of Stoner's was subject to pressure as the gap was a lot closer but I think it is harder to argue about the second where the gap was much larger and Stoner's focus would normally be about gap management, if Stoner knows what that is. Stoner I think likes to gap people into oblivion if he can.

There's a case to argue that Stoner's crashes were due to pressure and a case to argue that they weren't given Stoner's riding style as described above. The key difference to me personally is Stoner was at race pace trying to break away, Rossi was not on a flyer, was just trying to get his tyres warmed up after letting through Barbara so on that particular lap, he would not have been trying to beat anyone.

Fair enuf. Certainly, the pressure during the race is easier to correlate as is the pressure during practice. But nonetheless the case can be made. Like i said, i agree that. Its a stretch, but God knows the other side has routinely STRETCHED the cause for some of Stoners crashes. The fact is practice is the building pressure that climaxes during the race, so its not out of possibility that Rossis preocupation of being locked into a title fight with his teammate may hav been a factor in him trying to prepare and tst the limits during practice. This correlates to any activity engaged in competition. So no, not the kind of pressure from a close ontrack battle, but yes, certainly from the bigger picture of championship.

dwoodhouse · Dec 5, 2010

Jumkie said:
Fair enuf. Certainly, the pressure during the race is easier to correlate as is the pressure during practice. But nonetheless the case can be made. Like i said, i agree that. Its a stretch, but God knows the other side has routinely STRETCHED the cause for some of Stoners crashes. The fact is practice is the building pressure that climaxes during the race, so its not out of possibility that Rossis preocupation of being locked into a title fight with his teammate may hav been a factor in him trying to prepare and tst the limits during practice. This correlates to any activity engaged in competition. So no, not the kind of pressure from a close ontrack battle, but yes, certainly from the bigger picture of championship.

I know what you're saying and as you are saying, you're stretching. I don't see this one the same way otherwise I'd be able to say 100% that stoners second crash was due to pressure as there is a stronger link there to pressure than rossi's practice crash. From what you're saying though, you seem to be implying that you are only stretching it that far because others stretch everything else that far rather than you actually believe it to be true.

inam22 · Dec 5, 2010

Jumkie said:
Uhm, why u bringing up Stoners Valencia warm up crash? But even then, it was chalked up to mental weakness by some. Stoner while leading GPs in 08, even this year at Qatar, saying h was trying to clear away so as not to hav to deal with a Rossi battle. Infact, it seemed to be the theme after Laguna 08, that Stoner was afraid to close race Rossi and so tried to clear out resulting in some crashes since then.

Inam, can u make the connection that the championship pressure extends to practice? Flying lap or not, the entire session is spent preparing to answer to the championship battle in which Rossi was engaged with Lorenzo at the time. That pressure. The pressure to prepare for the race to dual ur rival. Hav u ever seen these guys get pissed when another rider screws up a lap or follows them? Why would that be inam. Perhaps its because while on the track its high stakes pressure? That pressure.

I am not denying championship pressure at all here Jumkie and one can understand that riders are under pressure all the time but you and few others can't see simple facts which led to Rossi's crash in practice.

Jumkie · Dec 5, 2010

inam said:
I am not denying championship pressure at all here Jumkie and one can understand that riders are under pressure all the time but you and few others can't see simple facts which led to Rossi's crash in practice.

Sure i can. Its just at what level would u like to discuss. If u want to discuss the isolated incident, then its been described, he slowed down causing his tires to cool down which may hav resulted in uncharacteristic crash. This is wher ud like me to end the analysis? We can.

Is this wer we usually leave crashes of all riders? Do we ever discuss or project why they crashed, that is, apart from the immediate particulars?

Jumkie · Dec 5, 2010

woody996 said:
I know what you're saying and as you are saying, you're stretching. I don't see this one the same way otherwise I'd be able to say 100% that stoners second crash was due to pressure as there is a stronger link there to pressure than rossi's practice crash. From what you're saying though, you seem to be implying that you are only stretching it that far because others stretch everything else that far rather than you actually believe it to be true.

Yes, to an extent woods.

Though ive often thought the crash was uncharacteristic for Rossi, whos rarely had such a violent off. Rossi is not a crasher. But hes had a couple wher its made me stop and wonder, why? I often rewatch old GPs and season reviews. I still marvel at his crash in Valencia 06. Seriously, it was very uncharacteristic. Did he lose concentration or was it an equipment malfunction? Factory hasnt been posting lately, but he suggested that Rossis Mugello crash was a tire malfunction. I havnt found anybody else to subscribe to Factorys proposal. But i'll tell u Woods, ive do think it was a lapse in concentration. I dont think its a bias driven conclusion thatin that moment he lost focus. Which i think thats just the nature of racing at this extreme level. HOWEVER, we may disagree as to what caused that lapse in concentration. U, like inam or perhaps RCV600 may chalk it up to just a freak accident, but i may chalk it up to him being distracted for a moment thinking about the need to quickly prepare against his rival Lorenzo. Neither of us know for sure right? So then, i think our explanation is equaly speculative and equally probable. U give him the benefit of the doubt, while i think hes had other moments rare as they may be) were hes lost focus with dramatic consequence.

frizzle · Dec 5, 2010

Talpa said:
I didn't say any of this at all, posts like this is the reason why this forum is getting very tedious, where did I say Casey wanted to lose the front all the time?? Point it out please.....you misquote and misinterpret then call me delusional.

I said that Stoner has had a key role in the development of that motorcycle, he was the No 1 rider was he not? Unless you think that Ducati just does it all themselves? If he knew why he was losing the front all the time I'm sure he would have fixed it pronto....Some know, some don't. Maybe Rossi won't even figure it out either.

I said that the bike that Rossi was riding is a result of Casey Stoners development, do you disagree with this? And no one believes that the bikes hasn't had significant updates and rebuilds since 2007, I'll name a few, Carbon fibre frame, big bang engine, hundreds of Marenelli SW upgrades, 4-5 new front ends.......Do you think that Ducati just went ahead and did all this without even looking at Casey's data and feedback??? Take a good look at what Pretzozi said after just two days with Rossi.

For point of debate, lets look at how Troy Bayliss jumped on the 2006 990 Desmo developed by Loris for the first time in 2 years and won the race at Valencia.......Freak performance yes, Freakishly good rider yes, but couldn't have happened without a very ridable motorcycle. Could we see this happen at present with a Ducati? I seriously doubt it. And its not from a lack of funding.

Seeing as you bring up resources and money, if Ducati didn't have significant resources and funding then how did they perform so well back in 2006-2007, even 2008? Yamaha and Honda weren't skimping back then either.....I'm sure your going to say they were only a result of Casey's extraordinary riding ability, but I'll ask anyway.....

Its easy for you to dismiss all evidence to the contrary to support your argument, but the fact is that Casey had 4 years and plenty of opportunity and support at Ducati, including a stack of wins and a world title....this doesn't come without significant investment from the manufacturer, not too mention the never ending money pit associated with a certain tobacco giant, adding to this the strongly rumoured allegiance with Ferrari. All in all, I would say the Japanese were the ones with their work cut out......

WTF are you on about? Of course I disagree. Why do you give the riders all the credit for development & the team & factory get none, or take no blame for the bikes failures?

You spin everything to suit your standard Rossi is god & Stoner sucks big time fetish.

Do you think Casey is responsible for telling Ducati how to fix their bike? It's his job to give them feedback on what the bike is doing. Not fix the damn thing himself.

That's what his team is for. If he says to them the front keeps folding without warning, and where & when it's happening, then it is up to the team to take action to fix it.

Every Ducati rider lost the front on many occasions in 2010 & by seasons end they still didn't get it sorted. And you talk about dismissing evidence to support your argument?

You are off with the fairies (the yellow one's obviously)

inam22 · Dec 6, 2010

Jumkie said:
Sure i can. Its just at what level would u like to discuss. If u want to discuss the isolated incident, then its been described, he slowed down causing his tires to cool down which may hav resulted in uncharacteristic crash. This is wher ud like me to end the analysis? We can.

Is this wer we usually leave crashes of all riders? Do we ever discuss or project why they crashed, that is, apart from the immediate particulars?

Jumkie even if you want to look Rossi's crash from another angle you are not going to find much support for your take on his crash, it wasn't like Rossi was first time in history was behind in the championship early in the season. He has been in that position few times in his career before.

BarryMachine · Dec 6, 2010

woody996 said:
The positive from the test is that there is only one way for Rossi to go - up. He can't go backwards from there.

Thats the spirit ........... and a pretty good point, well lets hope so anyway .

Tom · Dec 6, 2010

woody996 said:
If Stoner had been on Michelins I don't think 07 would have been anywhere near as dominant as it was. We're in the world of 'what if's again. He still may well have won, but I think the season would have looked significantly different.

Well that is totally speculation. But you pointed out, and i would agree that Yamaha and Honda's most successful rider in 07 was Michelin shod not becuase of the tyre performance but because of the quality of the rider using them. I would say the same about Stoner, why would you change your reasoning for the same issue.

inam said:
I am not denying championship pressure at all here Jumkie and one can understand that riders are under pressure all the time but you and few others can't see simple facts which led to Rossi's crash in practice.

Yes the simple facts are clear for us all. What we are talking about here, is why things unfolded this way. Rossi is not a rookie, he has the experience and ability to cover simple issues like cold tyres. Rossi doesn't usually make errors, even less so errors of this nature so why did he make one that day? Do you think the accident was simply bad luck? I don't. Do you think the accident was totally independant of his circumstances? I don't. The championship battle extends to free practice, it does matter to the riders. In 2009 Lorenzo raised his game to be as quick as Rossi, but to maintain that position he was taking too many risks, and errors were inevitably made. In 2010 the tables turned.

Jumkie · Dec 6, 2010

inam said:
Jumkie even if you want to look Rossi's crash from another angle you are not going to find much support for your take on his crash, it wasn't like Rossi was first time in history was behind in the championship early in the season. He has been in that position few times in his career before.

Sorry inam but im not sure i understand, r u saying people wont support my description of the immediate cause pertaining to cold tires or that im projecting the possible reason for his distraction? Or both?

Anyway, back on topic:

I found this to be interesting...

“Would Rossi have been surprised how the bike felt when he finally threw his leg over? Possibly, although we probably won't know his true thoughts for quite some time. Regardless, I think there's a good chance Vale now has an even higher regard for Casey [Stoner's] ability. Wayne Gardner

dwoodhouse · Dec 6, 2010

Tom said:
Well that is totally speculation. But you pointed out, and i would agree that Yamaha and Honda's most successful rider in 07 was Michelin shod not becuase of the tyre performance but because of the quality of the rider using them. I would say the same about Stoner, why would you change your reasoning for the same issue.

Yes the simple facts are clear for us all. What we are talking about here, is why things unfolded this way. Rossi is not a rookie, he has the experience and ability to cover simple issues like cold tyres. Rossi doesn't usually make errors, even less so errors of this nature so why did he make one that day? Do you think the accident was simply bad luck? I don't. Do you think the accident was totally independant of his circumstances? I don't. The championship battle extends to free practice, it does matter to the riders. In 2009 Lorenzo raised his game to be as quick as Rossi, but to maintain that position he was taking too many risks, and errors were inevitably made. In 2010 the tables turned.

Firstly - yes it is total speculation. I'm just trying to figure out why you believe I've changed my reasoning. Just because I thought the season would have gone a lot differently doesn't mean I think Stoner wouldn't come out on top for the Ducati riders or that he wouldn't have won the championship. There was more than just one reason why he won that year.

In relation to Rossi's error - everyone makes errors, Rossi included. He isn't God so why do you expect him to never stuff up unless he is under pressure. Sure he has a good track history in the past but 100% noone is perfect or invincible. He's crashed many many times before, the difference is that previously he was lucky with his injuries. This time he wasn't.

Stoner says: It's about the money.

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