Round 13: 2016 San Marino Grand Prix - Misano World Circuit Marco Simoncelli

GeniusAtTwerk said:

Well ain't that a spectacularly empty, cliched post.

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Ah, the irony!

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

michaelm said:

Not a mention of it in the articles or even the comments on motomutters...

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Nice

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

Daniboy said:

This tyre conspiracy theory has broken new ground, Lorenzo on pole massively under the previous record on 'michelintino' specials . This deserves an explanation, answers on the back of a small postage stamp please.

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Because a casino wins every hand, right?

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

JPSLotus said:

There's enough out there regarding the lack of Lorenzo's preferred tire withdrawn under safety grounds....

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It was withdraw on grounds of safety...fact. Rossi's performance advantage is safe.


If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

Gaz said:

I don't disagree that Webb and DORNA do try to minimise any real or potential negativity towards VR, but likewise I also have no doubt that a rider will try to spin any discussions between RD and themselves to their own benefit and thus I suspect that AE did just this, thus to me the truth if the 'supposedly private' conversation (and lets remember that it was AE who went public) is likely between the two public mutterings.

If I watch the full video I do see VR check a little, not (to me anyway) an indication of impediment but more a 'this is no race so I will just make sure where he is going first' kind of check, the kind you will see each and every practice as riders second guess the other.

That said, if RD saw it as nothing then no approach was necessary, if they saw something then the rider or riders involved should have been called to RD, not the other way round (which to me, by RD going to the rider makes everything unofficial)

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Very unlikely Aleix Espargaro would openly lie about the conversation with a very powerful Dorna official.


So this means, Mike Webb stormed into Aleix garage to tell him...he had done nothing wrong.

Not the first time actually, he told Marquez he'd done nothing wrong, YET still managed to create the optics that the innocent guy should be the object of a witch hunt.

Your take on this matter is disturbing.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

I can see Rossi winning this weekend. Not sure really, think he'll go in hard as.

I rode disc rear/ 5 spoke and double discs on the velodrome. Hard to steer the buggers, especially double and trying to steer with your elbows ala team pursuit.

I wonder what effect if any they would have on a motorcycle.

Speedway run rear wheel covers as a saftey issue

JPSLotus said:

Great contribution as usual Dani. I'd love to see you type out something of greater elucidation, just so I'm not left with the feeling that you've expended your mental faculties on this but one post. He also did a similar thing at the Losail International Circuit this March. Fat lot of good it has done him since.

There's enough out there regarding the lack of Lorenzo's preferred tire withdrawn under safety grounds, and that he only gets the tire working when certain environmental conditions are in play - namely heat, that should make anyone reasonable, question the construct of these tires.

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It's Lorenzo's particular style that makes him struggle, taking into account the number of race winners this season it's clear that other teams are getting it to work. He has admitted that much himself.

Jumkie said:

Very unlikely Aleix Espargaro would openly lie about the conversation with a very powerful Dorna official.

So this means, Mike Webb stormed into Aleix garage to tell him...he had done nothing wrong.

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Depends on whether he had a similar chat with Rossi.

There are no grounds to start any official investigation whatsoever.

So RD steps around to each rider for an informal chat saying something that's essentially meaningless ('be aware?' ) primarily to asset its own presence and discouraging a spat from continuing onto other sessions especially race day.

Dr No said:

I dunno about the Ducati disk wheel. That underseat area would have some very messy airflow. The wheel covers might assist in cleaning up a bit of the induced drag (or rather stop the wheel from contributing as much to it)

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If I was to theorise I would wonder what they may have been testing either with the wheel or within the wheel.

Are they looking at an alternative once the wings are removed type of thing?

Jumkie said:

Very unlikely Aleix Espargaro would openly lie about the conversation with a very powerful Dorna official.

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Not saying that Aleix lied but am well aware that some people hear what they want and from that will determine a story as they already have in their minds what occurred on track.

IMO only but there is no doubt that Aleix believes that he heard Webb in the way he has described, now whether Webb said those words or was not clear and thus Aleix has interpreted his way, that could be another story.

Personally, just as I do not think Aleix lied I also do not think that Webb has necessarily lied as what I do feel is that both are making statements based on the point that puts them in the best light from their own points.

Jumkie said:

Not the first time actually, he told Marquez he'd done nothing wrong, YET still managed to create the optics that the innocent guy should be the object of a witch hunt.

Your take on this matter is disturbing.

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He did not tell Marquez that he had done nothing wrong, he said that no rules were broken and whilst that may exonerate Marquez of blame in the incident, it does not mean that in the eyes of RD Marquez was totally without blame or reasonable cause (he stated that RD had suspicions)

My take may be disturbing but my take is based on years of experience where people hear and repeat that which they wish, in a manner that is beneficial to themselves and where two people are speaking, often the truth lay somewhere in the middle. As the saying goes 'what you hear and what I hear is often different despite the words being the same'.

To me, the sheer fact that Aleix was NOT called to Race Direction means that any discussion was unofficial and no matter what Webb says, it is not binding as it was unofficial. If Webb was of the belief that AE did impede at all (and there are quotes stating that Webb mentioned 'slight' than the discussion should have been official and documented.

It was Aleix who made the discussion public, not Webb as without Aleix going public this would not be getting discussed as we would not have known.

But, I am sure that there is one thing we will agree on and that is were any other rider involved then no chat would have occurred.

On another side, I do wonder whether Rossi had the helmet on or off?

paparazzo said:

The least you could do is congratulate me on my 200th post.

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The 2,428 as Talpa was a more impressive count.

Interesting to hear that Marc wanted to test the limit of the new tyre and so he chose the 45mph Quercia. Turns 11 and 12 are fearsome - entry is something like 175mph. Last year I recall the Moto 2 bikes dropping a cog and going in full throttle, braking by bouncing off the rev limiter.

I say it every year, but I still preferred this place when it went left.

Gaz said:

Not saying that Aleix lied but am well aware that some people hear what they want and from that will determine a story as they already have in their minds what occurred on track.

IMO only but there is no doubt that Aleix believes that he heard Webb in the way he has described, now whether Webb said those words or was not clear and thus Aleix has interpreted his way, that could be another story.

Personally, just as I do not think Aleix lied I also do not think that Webb has necessarily lied as what I do feel is that both are making statements based on the point that puts them in the best light.




He did not tell Marquez that he had done nothing wrong, he said that no rules were broken and whilst that may exonerate Marquez of blame in the incident, it does not mean that in the eyes of RD Marquez was totally without blame or reasonable cause (he stated that RD had suspicions)

My take may be disturbing but my take is based on years of experience where people hear and repeat that which they wish, in a manner that is beneficial to themselves and where two people are speaking, often the truth lay somewhere in the middle. As the saying goes 'what you hear and what I hear is often different despite the words being the same'.

To me, the sheer fact that Aleix was NOT called to Race Direction means that any discussion was unofficial and no matter what Webb says, it is not binding as it was unofficial. If Webb was of the belief that AE did impede at all (and there are quotes stating that Webb mentioned 'slight' than the discussion should have been official and documented.

It was Aleix who made the discussion public, not Webb as without Aleix going public this would not be getting discussed as we would not have known.

But, I am sure that there is one thing we will agree on and that is were any other rider involved then no chat would have occurred.

On another side, I do wonder whether Rossi had the helmet on or off?

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Two things.

It was practice not qualifying.

And where is the trenchant criticism from Rossi fans which Stoner received for a similar attitude and actions, although in his case usually related to much more egregious dawdling on the racing line?. Having largely supported Stoner's stance on this if not the way he chose to make his point, I can't be too hard on Rossi for this, but if any proof was needed I don't think the Rossians have a very strong position from which to complain about double standards.

Jack Miller out of the race - " Too much pain in his injured right hand due to the physical demands of the Misano circuit "

michaelm said:

Two things.

It was practice not qualifying.

And where is the trenchant criticism from Rossi fans which Stoner received for a similar attitude and actions, although in his case usually related to much more egregious dawdling on the racing line?. Having largely supported Stoner's stance on this if not the way he chose to make his point, I can't be too hard on Rossi for this, but if any proof was needed I don't think the Rossians have a very strong position from which to complain about double standards.

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This is something I have asked a few times in a few different forums - why is it differrnt for VR and yet Stoner after Jerez 2011 and Lorenzo after Sepang 2015 were both abused, pilloried and ridiculed by a large proportion of fans and yet neither of them gave a rider the finger and did not show their obvious displeasure on track.

Edited to add:
IMO only Mike but to me practice and qualifying should be held by the same rules as if you start to let rules slide, they can soon become ignored.



I actually do not have an issue with Rossi showing displeasure although I do think he carried on a bit much given that Aleix did and does raise his hand in a conciliatory manner but yes, I have enjoyed in some areas a little egg given some people past protestations

shaunna said:

Jack Miller out of the race - " Too much pain in his injured right hand due to the physical demands of the Misano circuit "

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I worry about this guy. Much like Spies, he may be taking too much abuse and will have a short career. The same could happen to MM with his shoulder, I suppose. But, so far MM doesn't really miss much racing.

Warm up times

Pos. Num. Rider Nation Team Bike Km/h Time Gap 1st/Prev.
1 93 Marc MARQUEZ SPA Repsol Honda Team Honda 289.7 1'33.068
2 46 Valentino ROSSI ITA Movistar Yamaha MotoGP Yamaha 291.4 1'33.138 0.070 / 0.070
3 51 Michele PIRRO ITA Ducati Team Ducati 293.5 1'33.318 0.250 / 0.180
4 4 Andrea DOVIZIOSO ITA Ducati Team Ducati 296.9 1'33.340 0.272 / 0.022
5 99 Jorge LORENZO SPA Movistar Yamaha MotoGP Yamaha 291.4 1'33.369 0.301 / 0.029
6 44 Pol ESPARGARO SPA Monster Yamaha Tech 3 Yamaha 290.0 1'33.391 0.323 / 0.022
7 25 Maverick VIÑALES SPA Team SUZUKI ECSTAR Suzuki 291.1 1'33.426 0.358 / 0.035
8 41 Aleix ESPARGARO SPA Team SUZUKI ECSTAR Suzuki 287.5 1'33.549 0.481 / 0.123
9 35 Cal CRUTCHLOW GBR LCR Honda Honda 287.0 1'33.631 0.563 / 0.082
10 8 Hector BARBERA SPA Avintia Racing Ducati 292.8 1'33.692 0.624 / 0.061
11 45 Scott REDDING GBR OCTO Pramac Yakhnich Ducati 291.4 1'33.735 0.667 / 0.043
12 26 Dani PEDROSA SPA Repsol Honda Team Honda 291.2 1'33.771 0.703 / 0.036
13 19 Alvaro BAUTISTA SPA Aprilia Racing Team Gresini Aprilia 289.6 1'34.119 1.051 / 0.348
14 9 Danilo PETRUCCI ITA OCTO Pramac Yakhnich Ducati 289.7 1'34.199 1.131 / 0.080
15 6 Stefan BRADL GER Aprilia Racing Team Gresini Aprilia 289.4 1'34.319 1.251 / 0.120
16 53 Tito RABAT SPA Estrella Galicia 0,0 Marc VDS Honda 287.0 1'34.628 1.560 / 0.309
17 22 Alex LOWES GBR Monster Yamaha Tech 3 Yamaha 287.1 1'34.654 1.586 / 0.026
18 50 Eugene LAVERTY IRL Pull & Bear Aspar Team Ducati 289.3 1'34.863 1.795 / 0.209
19 68 Yonny HERNANDEZ COL Pull & Bear Aspar Team Ducati 287.6 1'34.973 1.905 / 0.110
20 12 Javier FORES SPA Avintia Racing Ducati 285.2 1'35.545 2.477 / 0.572
43 Jack MILLER AUS Estrella Galicia 0,0 Marc VDS Honda

shaunna said:

Jack Miller out of the race - " Too much pain in his injured right hand due to the physical demands of the Misano circuit "

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Nicky Hayden around?

michaelm said:

Then we disagree.

Lorenzo being the best rider in 2013 would have involved him not crashing out and fracturing his clavicle twice and missing or riding injured in several races. The only excuse I have for him is that MM's pass at the last corner at Jerez was illegitimate, while still probably being avoidable by him.

Nicky Hayden rode a brilliant season in 2006 whether or not he could repeat same in other years, without full support from his team in general (only imo of course), and in fact the antithesis of support from his team-mate (not a matter of opinion), Rossi crashed out of the last race when still in with a very good chance of the title, and if he is to be praised as he is for his development skills must also surely share the blame if there were any deficiencies in the bike in his third year as the undisputed lead factory Yamaha rider.

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So you think every year the champion was also the best rider? Just from a statistical likelihood that would be an anomaly I think.

I consider Lorenzo the best of that year even when taking the injury and missed race into account, for me Honda was clearly better that year and it was Lorenzos great riding that almost made the difference against what was still a rookie Marquez.

Sure Hayden was great in 2006 and Rossi did crash out in the last race, I took both of those events into account when concluding Rossi was the best rider that year by a significant margin. Sure, the development of the bike pace wise could be considered partly his fault but even with those issues, and Assen, Rossi would've taken the title in Motegi, if Jerez, China, Le Mans and Laguna didn't happen. For my money I think Honda was the superior package in 2004 and 2005 as well so it wasn't hugely different if DNFs weren't taken into account.

But honestly, you would say Nicky Hayden was objectively better than Valentino Rossi in 2006 MotoGP season?

"Let's not forget regarding 2013 that Marquez lost at least 20 points due to a last minute rule change so to say that Marquez wasn't the best rider that year is false IMO."

I think this is questionable, but for me not outside his control. I consider the rider and the team as a package so mistakes made from them resulting in a points loss as their fault, thus making Marquez' year that much worse for me. It's the same as Rossi pissing away points in the pit stop races of Misano and Sachsenring due to horrible strategies.

GeniusAtTwerk said:

So you think every year the champion was also the best rider? Just from a statistical likelihood that would be an anomaly I think.

I consider Lorenzo the best of that year even when taking the injury and missed race into account, for me Honda was clearly better that year and it was Lorenzos great riding that almost made the difference against what was still a rookie Marquez.

Sure Hayden was great in 2006 and Rossi did crash out in the last race, I took both of those events into account when concluding Rossi was the best rider that year by a significant margin. Sure, the development of the bike pace wise could be considered partly his fault but even with those issues, and Assen, Rossi would've taken the title in Motegi, if Jerez, China, Le Mans and Laguna didn't happen. For my money I think Honda was the superior package in 2004 and 2005 as well so it wasn't hugely different if DNFs weren't taken into account.

But honestly, you would say Nicky Hayden was objectively better than Valentino Rossi in 2006 MotoGP season?

"Let's not forget regarding 2013 that Marquez lost at least 20 points due to a last minute rule change so to say that Marquez wasn't the best rider that year is false IMO."

I think this is questionable, but for me not outside his control. I consider the rider and the team as a package so mistakes made from them resulting in a points loss as their fault, thus making Marquez' year that much worse for me. It's the same as Rossi pissing away points in the pit stop races of Misano and Sachsenring due to horrible strategies.

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Haha, oh god.

Nicky Hayden was the better rider in 2006. There was more to his performance than you seem to even understand. His clutch problems were well documented throughout the season, and he had to ride around that. That's not even getting into the bike parts that Hayden was being given to test in the middle of a world championship fight.