Rossi to test GP12 at Jerez

birdman · Oct 1, 2011

Talpa said:
many, including matt miladin, Ben spies, alvro and the waters boy would seriously disagree.

Those who don't give a .... have pulled out, the fact that Suzuki is still there is admirable, even if they've bent the rules on occasion

I like suzuki as a manufacturer, even put a deposit on a gsxr. Love their dirt bikes. Chad reed was on one to win AMA mx. And they still sell the rm250 in aus for peeps who still want a two stroke. But it's the ex racers who are outspokenly critical of Suzuki commitment such as schwantz, Beattie, Haslam, vermulen, and yes spies still rides for Suzuki does he?

povol · Oct 1, 2011

Anyone who is a fan of GP should at least once a day, thank Honda for keeping GP a viable series. Without them, the series would have folded or become just another series decades ago. I dont pull for Honda, or any other manufacturer in general, but i do know who pumps the money into the series to keep it on track as the elite motorcyle racing series on the planet. AMA thought they could live without Honda money and participation, hows that working out for them.. You run off the manufacturers, especially Honda, the series is doomed.. As is life, GP is a competition and Honda is out to win, of course they will try to influence the regulations, they have earned that right.

Whoa, does that sound familiar.

Jumkie · Oct 1, 2011

michaelm said:
I am not a particular fan of honda in general, although I grateful to them for providing wayne gardner, mick doohan and casey stoner with championship capable bikes.But the absolute bitterness of some concerning them at present is over the top. What is wrong about them winning a championship? There were no such recriminations about yamaha winning the 3 previous titles but, oddly, similar such talk in 2007 as mr squiggle has pointed out.

This argument is about Honda? Is that how u see it?

michaelm · Oct 1, 2011

Jumkie said:
This argument is about Honda? Is that how u see it?

There are several different arguments going on at once, I am aware that yours is not about honda.

I didn't think the 800 formula was a good idea in 2007 when stoner was winning, and I don't think it is a good idea although he is winning in 2011. In weak moments complaints by fans of a certain rider about stoner having a technical advantage still annoy me though, particularly since it was entirely predictable this would happen again. I also don't think stoner can do much more than he is doing, and is hardly an apologist for the formula, and agree to some extent with other stoner fans that other seasons in which other riders have been just as dominant and ridden no better have not attracted the same level of complaint about the racing being boring. If pressed, I will admit to finding the racing more interesting even in 2007 than this year, partly because the different tyre suppliers introduced an extra variable, partly because what stoner had to do to have the thing in a situation to exploit the straightline advantage was fairly insane and rather spectacular.

povol · Oct 1, 2011

Except for the little spat between Jumkie and squig, the subject is boring racing, and yes, Jumkie blames that on the MSMA [Honda} . So yes, this is about Honda. In Jumkies eyes, everything bad with GP is Honda's fault, because they are the MSMA.

Mr Squiggle · Oct 1, 2011

birdman said:
Beware to the one known as Mr Squiggle for I sense you may be in grave danger.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKGPvul8FXc&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKGPvul8FXc&feature=related[/media]

I was mauled by an angry chihuahua as a boy and have been scarred for life

Mr Squiggle · Oct 1, 2011

Talpa said:
Jums, truly brilliant. Some of your absolute best work.

Another little point. Hondas gearbox is a $700.000.00 option for the sat teams which comes with it's own engineers, no mechanic is allow to even look at it......Adding another cool million odd to those who dare wish to maybe compete against the repsols.

The formula has been significantly dumbed down for the last two years....spec rubber, fuel limits, engine rule, testing restrictions....it's impossible to dumb it down any more!!

These rules leave an extremely narrow window for success, which requires a specific design for which there is no adequate testing time allowed to develop....not innovative.....extremely expensive......and extrodinarily dumbed down to previous incarnations of the formula.

Personally as a Rossi fan I've been very critical of the formula regardless of who is winning, Dorna is in a constant state of rule changes to try and sort out the horrible mess that the msma has created.....this is the strongest evidence that supports the argument that the formula is fundamentally flawed.....another tyre supplier will go a long way to improving things, until this happens not much will change.....

Nice of you to chime in Talpas......

See that highlighted bit.....what do you think I have been saying this whole frickin time!!!!!

I DONT WANT TO SEE ANY MORE STUPID RULES ADDED TO DUMB DOWN THE FORMULA ANY MORE THAN IT HAS BEEN TO PRODUCE ARTIFICIALLY CLOSE RACING.

Jumkie is so monumentally stupid he just doesnt get my point - probably been on the piss again. Glad to see you two are buddies though

Mr Squiggle · Oct 1, 2011

Jumkie said:
This argument is about Honda? Is that how u see it?

Michael....get with the program. This is about Rossi Vs Stoner

AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

hawkdriver · Oct 1, 2011

birdman said:
Suzuki cant be bothered running a factory bike in SBK, or Supersport. They never bothered to run in 125cc and rarely in 250cc. Even while Haslam was a chance of winning the SBK title in 2010, Suzuki couldnt be bothered giving him any updates. Suzuki dont give a ..... Yep its all the MSMA's fault. Honda suck for being overly committed to bike racing.

Honda is unfairly taking over gp racing to ruin the series, that's why no one else wants to play. You can't let the factories who make the bikes destroy the sport by letting them make the rules that allow them to dominate the sport. Make a clear set of rules and then make it open to anyone who wants to come race with any engine that fits within those rules just like other motorsports.

birdman · Oct 1, 2011

hawkdriver said:
Honda is unfairly taking over gp racing to ruin the series, that's why no one else wants to play. You can't let the factories who make the bikes destroy the sport by letting them make the rules that allow them to dominate the sport. Make a clear set of rules and then make it open to anyone who wants to come race with any engine that fits within those rules just like other motorsports.

Sorry I'm confused and need it explained to me. The move to four stroke was thanks to Honda manipulation because their 500cc two stroke sucked?

The best 990 was then clearly the v5 Honda. The 990 Suzuki was a steaming pile of ..... That was Honda's fault.

The rules were then changed by the evil empire clearly to suit themselves because Suzuki was killing it at the time, resulting in Ducati getting a surprise title, followed by 3 titles to Yamaha. Now after 4 years the evil empire is finally back on the thrown. Gee arent they clever, clearly they have benefited massively by rule changing.

And Suzuki is still.............in the same place they were with the 990, the same place they were with 500.

hawkdriver · Oct 1, 2011

michaelm said:
I am not a particular fan of honda in general, although I grateful to them for providing wayne gardner, mick doohan and casey stoner with championship capable bikes.But the absolute bitterness of some concerning them at present is over the top. What is wrong about them winning a championship? There were no such recriminations about yamaha winning the 3 previous titles but, oddly, similar such talk in 2007 as mr squiggle has pointed out.

The problem I have is that things are coming to point where teams will be leaving if the rules keep getting changed every year like they are now. What Honda and the MSMA are doing is becoming clear with the fuel limits and the way you have to go through them to get a competitive engine and chassis combo. You can't come into GP and win with the current rules like you can in F1 and NASCAR, GP is supposed to be the pinnacle of bike racing but the factories don't want to really compete and they get to decide who they give what package to. I don't want to see everyone leave and yamaha and honda become the sole engine and chassis distributors with their factory teams getting the good stuff.

birdman · Oct 1, 2011

Mr Squiggle said:
Nice of you to chime in Talpas......

See that highlighted bit.....what do you think I have been saying this whole frickin time!!!!!

I DONT WANT TO SEE ANY MORE STUPID RULES ADDED TO DUMB DOWN THE FORMULA ANY MORE THAN IT HAS BEEN TO PRODUCE ARTIFICIALLY CLOSE RACING.

Jumkie is so monumentally stupid he just doesnt get my point - probably been on the piss again. Glad to see you two are buddies though

But at least Jumkie explained to us fanatical Stoner biased prototype loving morons that the rules are made by MEN, not GOD. Who would have guessed?

Mr Squiggle · Oct 1, 2011

birdman said:
Sorry I'm confused and need it explained to me. The move to four stroke was thanks to Honda manipulation because their 500cc two stroke sucked?

The best 990 was then clearly the v5 Honda. The 990 Suzuki was a steaming pile of ..... That was Honda's fault.

The rules were then changed by the evil empire clearly to suit themselves because Suzuki was killing it at the time, resulting in Ducati getting a surprise title, followed by 3 titles to Yamaha. Now after 4 years the evil empire is finally back on the thrown. Gee arent they clever, clearly they have benefited massively by rule changing.

And Suzuki is still.............in the same place they were with the 990, the same place they were with 500.

My recollection was that the rules were changed from 990cc to go to the current 800cc formula as a knee jerk reaction to the Kato incident and were introduced on "safety" grounds.....

Honda like ALL the companies involved - they are out there to win....if they can gain a competitive advantage over their rivals they will go for it.....just like every other manufacturer out there will also attempt to gain advantage.

Mr Squiggle · Oct 1, 2011

birdman said:
But at least Jumkie explained to us fanatical Stoner biased prototype loving morons that the rules are made by MEN, not GOD. Who would have guessed?

One of the major problems is the constant tinkering with the rules all the time which actually compounds the problems we are seeing, as the strongest competitors will have more resources to adapt quicker. How many times has the formula changed in the last decade or so.....next year will be the fourth.

And yet they want us to believe they are trying to keep costs down with all these stupid formula changes and the current regulations that have been introduced over the last few years - give me a break.

Spec tires

Fuel regs

Engine rev limits etc etc etc

None of these should be in a prototype racing series....which is why I want to see less rules rather than more added in a vain attempt to even the playing field.

hawkdriver · Oct 1, 2011

birdman said:
Sorry I'm confused and need it explained to me. The move to four stroke was thanks to Honda manipulation because their 500cc two stroke sucked?

The best 990 was then clearly the v5 Honda. The 990 Suzuki was a steaming pile of ..... That was Honda's fault.

The rules were then changed by the evil empire clearly to suit themselves because Suzuki was killing it at the time, resulting in Ducati getting a surprise title, followed by 3 titles to Yamaha. Now after 4 years the evil empire is finally back on the thrown. Gee arent they clever, clearly they have benefited massively by rule changing.

And Suzuki is still.............in the same place they were with the 990, the same place they were with 500.

If I need to explain to you why we are getting CRT bikes and the fact that Dorkna want CRT bikes to be the future because they are tired of being handcuffed by the factories than you haven't been paying attention to the current despair that the sport is in. If Suzuki leaves we'll have one less bike on the grid, if Duc leave we'll have six less bikes on the grid. Do you want to see a grid with 10 or less bikes and only 4 of them having a shot at winning.

birdman · Oct 1, 2011

hawkdriver said:
If I need to explain to you why we are getting CRT bikes and the fact that Dorkna want CRT bikes to be the future because they are tired of being handcuffed by the factories than you haven't been paying attention to the current despair that the sport is in. If Suzuki leaves we'll have one less bike on the grid, if Duc leave we'll have six less bikes on the grid. Do you want to see a grid with 10 or less bikes and only 4 of them having a shot at winning.

What version of racing rules hasnt benefited Honda? Thats the main point. What set of rules can we dream up that will make Suzuki interested? Spec engine? Nope, we have that its called SBK, Suzuki dont really want to play. Prototype? Nope. How about v-twin? Nope, Honda tried that too and beat Ducati at their own game.

How about 500cc two stroke? Nope, Honda.

How about 990cc four stroke with unlimited engines and fuel? Nope Honda.

How about 800cc fuel and engine limited? Well 2007 and even 2008 wasnt Ducati the undisputed best bike. Then in 2009/10 the Yamaha was best. Now in 2011 the Honda is the best. So the rules that everyone hates so much has actually resulted in the least dominated period of motogp in a long time? Yet even I agree with you it would be better without the engine rule and fuel rule. But i dont think that would stop Honda or help Suzuki.

CRT? I actually like the idea a lot.. Finally we can agree. Peace brother.

Mr Squiggle · Oct 1, 2011

povol said:
Except for the little spat between Jumkie and squig, the subject is boring racing, and yes, Jumkie blames that on the MSMA [Honda} . So yes, this is about Honda. In Jumkies eyes, everything bad with GP is Honda's fault, because they are the MSMA.

Jumkie doesnt even know what he is arguing about....he just enjoys a good argument

One minute its Rossi and Stoners fault....the next its Hondas. I wonder who he will drag into it next?

hawkdriver · Oct 1, 2011

Mr Squiggle said:
One of the major problems is the constant tinkering with the rules all the time which actually compounds the problems we are seeing, as the strongest competitors will have more resources to adapt quicker. How many times has the formula changed in the last decade or so.....next year will be the fourth.

And yet they want us to believe they are trying to keep costs down with all these stupid formula changes and the current regulations that have been introduced over the last few years - give me a break.

Spec tires

Fuel regs

Engine rev limits etc etc etc

None of these should be in a prototype racing series....which is why I want to see less rules rather than more added in a vain attempt to even the playing field.

Exactly, everytime we see a rule change, the factories have to go back and spend major R&D money to be able to compete within the new rules.

Mr Squiggle · Oct 1, 2011

hawkdriver said:
If I need to explain to you why we are getting CRT bikes and the fact that Dorkna want CRT bikes to be the future because they are tired of being handcuffed by the factories than you haven't been paying attention to the current despair that the sport is in. If Suzuki leaves we'll have one less bike on the grid, if Duc leave we'll have six less bikes on the grid. Do you want to see a grid with 10 or less bikes and only 4 of them having a shot at winning.

I agree Hawk....I too hope CRT will take some of the power away from the big 2 so we can see some underdogs start mixing it up with the big boys.....that would be fantastic. It is a David Vs Goliath scenario.....but hopefully Goliath gets some comeuppance

michaelm · Oct 1, 2011

Mr Squiggle said:
My recollection was that the rules were changed from 990cc to go to the current 800cc formula as a knee jerk reaction to the Kato incident and were introduced on "safety" grounds.....

Honda like ALL the companies involved - they are out there to win....if they can gain a competitive advantage over their rivals they will go for it.....just like every other manufacturer out there will also attempt to gain advantage.

I actually agree with those who argue that you can't let the msma decide the rules, at least not totally, since the inevitable result is a heavily engineering-based formula, and one in which the costs escalate and only a few riders are on equipment with any sort of winning chance.

However I also agree with the obvious truth that yamaha is also in the msma, and that it seems odd that it is OK for them or their riders to dominate for 3 years but that 1 year of no greater domination by honda or a honda rider anyway warrants absolute condemnation. Like others I suspect an element among the complainants are seeking to discredit that honda rider's achievements, as also happened the last time he was winning in a similar fashion, but not during many similarly dominant seasons by other riders in the past.

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