Rossi to test GP12 at Jerez

povol · Oct 4, 2011

BarryMachine said:
I think the thing there is that Casey's crew not just "made the bike go", but more importantly they "made the bike go for Casey"

To be honest I don't think they would be able to make the bike go for Rossi as Rossi in not capable of making it go.

I guess I'm saying I believe its the bigger part dependent on the rider( especially in Casey's case )

Without a doubt, Stoner is probably 80% of the equation, to many great riders have failed to tame the beast. I was just wondering about the current crews lack of knowledge and nuance compared to the guys who tinkered on the pig for years.

BarryMachine · Oct 4, 2011

povol said:
Without a doubt, Stoner is probably 80% of the equation, to many great riders have failed to tame the beast. I was just wondering about the current crews lack of knowledge and nuance compared to the guys who tinkered on the pig for years.

Well they have a lack of knowledge of how to set the bike up for a guy who rides it like Casey, so thats something they have over every other team on the grid.

birdman · Oct 4, 2011

povol said:
Anyone ever consider the problem with the Ducati, is Casey took the crew that made it go with him to Honda..

Good point. Stoner says same thing imo in various comments to credit his team.

I remember when Stoner first joined Ducati he said something about having to convince the crew or Ducati to set the bike up how he wanted it. There seemed to be some disagreement at first he could ride it that way. I dont know specifically what it was about. Electronics, weight bias, seating position?

hawkdriver · Oct 4, 2011

Mr Squiggle said:
In all honesty this "solution" reeks of .........

The first thing you do when you hop on a new motorcycle is to adjust handlebar, seating, control lever / footpeg positions so you feel comfortable on the bike. Surely this is the most fundamental and basic adjustments you would make to a bike so the ergonomics are adjusted to your own preferences.

If Rossi & JB have only just worked this bit out after 10 months on the bike how did they ever attain legend status as setup / development geniuses.

If they are intimating the bike is suited to smaller riders only I see this also as rubbish....Stoner and Rossi are similar height.

171cm Vs 182cm

You cant tell me 11cm is gonna make all the difference....another "clutching at straws" scenario from Team Ducati.

We’ve moved the bike around everywhere and every which way, and up until this weekend we haven’t had much that has made any big changes. But Valentino has worked extremely hard with the electronics package, which is something we have been able to develop.

“I don’t exactly know what has been farmed out to the other guys, but we’ve been working on a lot of anti-spin and a lot of things,” Burgess said. “It’s pretty much a lot of the pumping that Casey (Stoner) complained about was caused by the way the electronics didn’t work smoothly in the braking, either keeping the wheel spinning or breaking the spin down more slowly. So you ended up with everything sort of out of sync and the bike leaping up and down. So these are things that Valentino was able to identify through his experience pretty early. “And it’s not anything against Casey, because he didn’t really have anything to compare it with.

Read more: http://www.sportrider.com/news/146_1105_jeremy_burgess_talks_about_rossi_and_ducati_progress/index.html#ixzz1Zr86V2dh

I think JB knows what he's talking about. Look at the changes made to the Yamaha just because of rider position and proper weight transfer, the bike is jacked up into the air to get better weight transfer onto the front during braking and it gave us the birth of the inverted swingarm. We've all seen the Duc going round with it's front end picked up and the fork tubes set deep into the triples so how can anyone say they haven't tried every possible setting. The bike does not have the adjustability that was built into the Yam and it doesn't help that everything on the Duc is connected to the engine.

Mr Squiggle · Oct 4, 2011

hawkdriver said:
We’ve moved the bike around everywhere and every which way, and up until this weekend we haven’t had much that has made any big changes. But Valentino has worked extremely hard with the electronics package, which is something we have been able to develop.

“I don’t exactly know what has been farmed out to the other guys, but we’ve been working on a lot of anti-spin and a lot of things,” Burgess said. “It’s pretty much a lot of the pumping that Casey (Stoner) complained about was caused by the way the electronics didn’t work smoothly in the braking, either keeping the wheel spinning or breaking the spin down more slowly. So you ended up with everything sort of out of sync and the bike leaping up and down. So these are things that Valentino was able to identify through his experience pretty early. “And it’s not anything against Casey, because he didn’t really have anything to compare it with.

Read more: http://www.sportride...l#ixzz1Zr86V2dh

I think JB knows what he's talking about. Look at the changes made to the Yamaha just because of rider position and proper weight transfer, the bike is jacked up into the air to get better weight transfer onto the front during braking and it gave us the birth of the inverted swingarm. We've all seen the Duc going round with it's front end picked up and the fork tubes set deep into the triples so how can anyone say they haven't tried every possible setting. The bike does not have the adjustability that was built into the Yam and it doesn't help that everything on the Duc is connected to the engine.

Thanks for the link Hawk...

I cant help but feel that article is somewhat irrelevant and out of date and the writer seems to be a Rossi apologist to some extent - for example....

"The belief that he could switch brands and start winning was created when he rode the even more flawed YZR-M1 to a thrilling victory over Max Biaggi in his Yamaha debut at Welkom, South Africa, in 2004."

I certainly dont agree that the Yamaha YZR-M1 Rossi rode at Welkom to win his debut race for Yamaha was as flawed as the current Ducati is...the bike Furasawa developed was pretty well sorted by the time Rossi got to the first race of the 2004 season otherwise he would never have been able to win so consistently on it.

As for the shoulder injury that this guy suggests was part of the problem - well Rossi first rode the Ducati on November 9th 2010 at the Valencia test.....BEFORE his shoulder operation had proceeded. However, he had won a race on the YZR-M1 about a month prior to this test and podiumed 2 days before at exactly the same track so the injury excuse at that point in time doesnt backup the evidence that he was hampered at that stage by the shoulder problem...

The fact of the matter is he hopped straight on to Stoners Ducati which had come second at the same track 2 days before at the Valencia race. He was subsequently 15th fastest in his debut ride at the Valencia test after getting a third place in the Valencia GP - that simply doesnt add up. I am sure after the operation had taken place it would have taken a while to recover and regain full strength but that is an entirely different situation.

I do agree with you and others that he simply doesnt look comfortable on the bike but riding position would certainly be something you would look to first before trying any radical setup adjustments or fundamental design changes...hence my skepticism.

Mr Squiggle · Oct 4, 2011

WTF!!!!!

I just had MickD's same problem with garbled HTML...luckily I had copied and pasted the text into my PC's buffer and re-edited my post and it got rid of the problem.

BarryMachine · Oct 4, 2011

birdman said:
Good point. Stoner says same thing imo in various comments to credit his team.

I remember when Stoner first joined Ducati he said something about having to convince the crew or Ducati to set the bike up how he wanted it. There seemed to be some disagreement at first he could ride it that way. I dont know specifically what it was about. Electronics, weight bias, seating position?

That was electronics. They were scratching their heads,and frankly I think he was lucky to get away with it ( though Stoner already had Gabarini and Suppo on his side ). It would have been his first ride ( though he qualied well ), and you know how much the Duc. engineers like to control things ....... after the shock first win, they pretty much seemed to work with the ethic ......" WTF he got a win !"

birdman · Oct 4, 2011

digger said:
it honestly wouldnt surprise me. his body language whilst on the bike is completely different to any other bike he has ridden.

this is probably wrong, but from my seat, it looks like he is doing way too much work with his upper body. his arms look too stiff giving to much negative feed back into the front. he just doesnt look relaxed on the bike, and if you know anything about going fast on a bike, you will know that they go the best with minimal input.

you reading this vale? you've just been given a lesson from digger on riding. this one is free, from now on you gotta pay. haha

This is really great info, good one Digger. You a racer or something? You know whats going on. I was taught the body is supposed to be self supporting and balanced on the bike at all times, arms free of carrying weight, which gives the relaxed look. Best lesson I ever had.

Carbon brakes must be a hell of a thing, trying to throw the riders over the bars. I reckon the issue is weight back is better for braking, accelerating, bad for front end feel. Weight forward is good for front end feel, bad for braking/accelerating rear traction. Weight higher /lower dont know? Somewhere in the middle is the compromise/best of both worlds they are continually searching for.

birdman · Oct 4, 2011

BarryMachine said:
That was electronics. They were scratching their heads,and frankly I think he was lucky to get away with it ( though Stoner already had Gabarini and Suppo on his side ). It would have been his first ride ( though he qualied well ), and you know how much the Duc. engineers like to control things ....... after the shock first win, they pretty much seemed to work with the ethic ......" WTF he got a win !"

When Cathcart test rode Stoners Duc he said the bars were set high and flat, the seat was set low and it felt strange at first, but when he rode on track it felt much better and he even rated the Duc one of the best. Stoner explained to Cathcart the position came from his dirt track background. Maybe Rossi should give it a go................................

digger · Oct 4, 2011

birdman said:
This is really great info, good one Digger. You a racer or something? You know whats going on. I was taught the body is supposed to be self supporting and balanced on the bike at all times, arms free of carrying weight, which gives the relaxed look. Best lesson I ever had.

Carbon brakes must be a hell of a thing, trying to throw the riders over the bars. I reckon the issue is weight back is better for braking, accelerating, bad for front end feel. Weight forward is good for front end feel, bad for braking/accelerating rear traction. Weight higher /lower dont know? Somewhere in the middle is the compromise/best of both worlds they are continually searching for.

Thanks mate, I've been known to turn a wheel in anger once or twice

I love the skills that these blokes have, but one gripe I've had with them for a while is the leg sticking out. This also relates back to the upper body. Under hard braking, you should be hanging on with ur knees, then all the force is taken through the tank, not the forks, tyre and brakes. With a leg sticking out, you can only hang on with ur hips and legs so much, the rest is taken through the arms and then transferred to the wrong part of the bike, and can also cause arm pump. At mx speed I can understand it, but anywhere over 200km/h, I don't like the idea.

But then again, they are gp racers, and I am not, so they must know what they are doing.... I think haha

hawkdriver · Oct 4, 2011

birdman said:
This is really great info, good one Digger. You a racer or something? You know whats going on. I was taught the body is supposed to be self supporting and balanced on the bike at all times, arms free of carrying weight, which gives the relaxed look. Best lesson I ever had.

Carbon brakes must be a hell of a thing, trying to throw the riders over the bars. I reckon the issue is weight back is better for braking, accelerating, bad for front end feel. Weight forward is good for front end feel, bad for braking/accelerating rear traction. Weight higher /lower dont know? Somewhere in the middle is the compromise/best of both worlds they are continually searching for.

Weight higher, pretty good stuff from JB

The two bikes could hardly be more different to sit on. While the Ducati is low-slung and stretched out, the more compact Yamaha has a much taller ride height. Asking Rossi's legendary race engineer Jerry Burgess why it was set up that way yields an interesting explanation. "It's because a couple of hours into the project, when Valentino was riding the Yamaha for the first time four years ago, we replaced the small 290mm discs they were using back then with bigger 320mm ones to get it to stop," Jerry recalls. "But then he complained he was locking the front brake, so it was obvious the low center of gravity the Yamaha had back then didn't work in delivering sufficient weight transfer under braking to load up the front wheel so the tire could grip. One way to deal with that is to lift the engine in the frame, or else you can just run the bike higher at both ends, which is what we did then as a quick fix and have done ever since."

Read more: http://www.sportrider.com/features/146_0804_motogp_ducati_yamaha_honda/viewall.html#ixzz1ZsXXgJdm

Jumkie · Oct 4, 2011

Mr Squiggle said:
WTF!!!!!

I just had MickD's same problem with garbled HTML...luckily I had copied and pasted the text into my PC's buffer and re-edited my post and it got rid of the problem.

I've been hacking your dumb ... for all the .... you've been talking lately.

hawkdriver · Oct 4, 2011

Mr Squiggle said:
Thanks for the link Hawk...

I cant help but feel that article is somewhat irrelevant and out of date and the writer seems to be a Rossi apologist to some extent - for example....

"The belief that he could switch brands and start winning was created when he rode the even more flawed YZR-M1 to a thrilling victory over Max Biaggi in his Yamaha debut at Welkom, South Africa, in 2004."

I certainly dont agree that the Yamaha YZR-M1 Rossi rode at Welkom to win his debut race for Yamaha was as flawed as the current Ducati is...the bike Furasawa developed was pretty well sorted by the time Rossi got to the first race of the 2004 season otherwise he would never have been able to win so consistently on it.

As for the shoulder injury that this guy suggests was part of the problem - well Rossi first rode the Ducati on November 9th 2010 at the Valencia test.....BEFORE his shoulder operation had proceeded. However, he had won a race on the YZR-M1 about a month prior to this test and podiumed 2 days before at exactly the same track so the injury excuse at that point in time doesnt backup the evidence that he was hampered at that stage by the shoulder problem...

The fact of the matter is he hopped straight on to Stoners Ducati which had come second at the same track 2 days before at the Valencia race. He was subsequently 15th fastest in his debut ride at the Valencia test after getting a third place in the Valencia GP - that simply doesnt add up. I am sure after the operation had taken place it would have taken a while to recover and regain full strength but that is an entirely different situation.

I do agree with you and others that he simply doesnt look comfortable on the bike but riding position would certainly be something you would look to first before trying any radical setup adjustments or fundamental design changes...hence my skepticism.

It is kind of old, lol what was that round 4 or 5. Just showing that they have turned the Duc inside out in an attempt to get Rossi comfortable on it. We now know it wasn't the shoulder, a softer chassis, an attempted change in riding style, or the gp11.1... so we're on to the next step, outside help for more rapid development.

Mr Squiggle · Oct 4, 2011

Jumkie said:
I've been hacking your dumb ... for all the .... you've been talking lately.

I have only been talkin .... about you

Mr Squiggle · Oct 4, 2011

hawkdriver said:
It is kind of old, lol what was that round 4 or 5. Just showing that they have turned the Duc inside out in an attempt to get Rossi comfortable on it. We now know it wasn't the shoulder, a softer chassis, an attempted change in riding style, or the gp11.1... so we're on to the next step, outside help for more rapid development.

Agreed...we need Ducati up front and I dont really care how they do it even if that means outsourcing and culling some of their traditional design hallmarks.

Their presence is crucial to the series - if they leave were all in trouble.

Mr Squiggle · Oct 4, 2011

Just read over at Motomatters that Checa is going to be test riding the GP12....that is a great idea.

He surely must be able to push the envelope a bit more than Battaini and provide useful feedback as to what the Dukes problems might be when on the limit.

michaelm · Oct 5, 2011

Mr Squiggle said:
Just read over at Motomatters that Checa is going to be test riding the GP12....that is a great idea.

He surely must be able to push the envelope a bit more than Battaini and provide useful feedback as to what the Dukes problems might be when on the limit.

Absolutely. Perhaps will give some idea of the difference between the trellis frame and carbon fibre ducati chassis, and also the difference between the ducati motogp chassis and conventional gp chassis; he is probably also the extant rider who has ridden the greatest variety of conventional gp chassis, even more than rossi and capirossi, with capirossi barely extant at that unfortunately

michaelm · Oct 5, 2011

Mr Squiggle said:
Just read over at Motomatters that Checa is going to be test riding the GP12....that is a great idea.

He surely must be able to push the envelope a bit more than Battaini and provide useful feedback as to what the Dukes problems might be when on the limit.

Absolutely. Perhaps will give some idea of the difference between the trellis frame and carbon fibre ducati chassis, and also the difference between the ducati motogp chassis and conventional gp chassis; he is probably also the extant rider who has ridden the greatest variety of conventional gp chassis, even more than rossi and capirossi, with capirossi barely extant at that unfortunately

Jumkie · Oct 5, 2011

Mr Squiggle said:
Just read over at Motomatters that Checa is going to be test riding the GP12....that is a great idea.

He surely must be able to push the envelope a bit more than Battaini and provide useful feedback as to what the Dukes problems might be when on the limit.

This is good news to me too, but for different reasons. I think it will show what a great bike he was riding in Wsbk and the GP12 will remind us all that he really isn't that great. Sound familiar? Watch and see.

Jumkie · Oct 5, 2011

michaelm said:
Absolutely. Perhaps will give some idea of the difference between the trellis frame and carbon fibre ducati chassis, and also the difference between the ducati motogp chassis and conventional gp chassis; he is probably also the extant rider who has ridden the greatest variety of conventional gp chassis, even more than rossi and capirossi, with capirossi barely extant at that unfortunately

This is good news to me too, but for different reasons. I think it will show what a great bike he was riding in Wsbk and the GP12 will remind us all that he really isn't that great. Sound familiar? Watch and see.

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