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Rossi: "I paid too much for last year"

What are you talking about? Your post didn't address anything you quoted.

Let me make it clear for you. I think Lorenzos race was much more optimal for best overall time (by perhaps 3-5 seconds), I also think Rossi was faster in the first 10 laps, the last 10 laps, and the 7 laps between them but was either getting stuffed into a corner, had to himself perform an overtake or otherwise was getting compromised by another rider pretty much the whole race, while Lorenzo had to battle for the first 2 laps, then exchanged easy overtakes with Marquez before the last lap.

You have now repeated "MM and JL are not obliged to adopt race strategies which will allow Rossi's strategy to beat them" about 8 times in this thread when no one has ever said anything of the sort.
My posts have been in response to your constant contention, except in a few recent posts concerning today's race on the race thread to which I have no objection, that MM screwed Valentino out of a title last year (this being at worst accurate paraphrasing on my part) and specifically that the way he raced at PI was suspicious and indicative of a conspiracy by him against Valentino.

Your conspiracy theory is bunkum, what MM inarguably did at PI 2015 was employ a race winning strategy ie a strategy which won the race. Something you seem unable to grasp hence the need for repetition.
 
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Missed this, so what you are suggesting is that looking back at the races of Lorenzo and Rossi, Rossi race was more optimal for the outright fastest time at the end of the race? If you do, then there is really not much to discuss.

The last 10 laps thing is ironic as well considering in all but 1 of Lorenzos wins that season the difference had been made by lap 8.

Oh im sorry, i thought we were discussing PI. At PI 2015, Rossi had the worst pace of the top 4 at the end of the race and guess what, he finished 4th, Crazy how that .... correlates isnt it
 
Well sure, I don't hold it against Lorenzo to win those races, just pointing out how silly the argument that Lorenzo didn't have tyres he wanted in 2015, when in all but 4 races (3 of which Rossi was faster than him) the edge-treated tyres were provided, that famously didn't provide major improvements to many other riders.

The tires which most suited Lorenzo were the marshmellow ones rolled out for 2012. Ironically in 2013 when he was back on a Yamaha, Rossi was finishing a distant 4th, unable to get anywhere near Lorenzo or even lead a single lap let alone win 4 straight races on tires which didn't suit him.

Naturally it wasn't long before Rossi had a sook the tires were too soft for his hard braking style and that if he didn't become more competitive he would retire. Well how long did it take for the tire construction to change after that. Edge treating is the compound, I'm talking about the construction. When the front construction is soft, Rossi cant brake and Lorenzo simply disappears into the distance. When the construction is hard, Lorenzo lacks feel at the front and struggles more to maintain high corner speed. Even so, Lorenzo still won 4 races straight, and then under pressure the most important final race in Valencia. Unlike his main rival, he didn't choke. Ladies and gentlemen, we have the deserved champion for 2015.
 
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What are you talking about? Your post didn't address anything you quoted.

Let me make it clear for you. I think Lorenzos race was much more optimal for best overall time (by perhaps 3-5 seconds), I also think Rossi was faster in the first 10 laps, the last 10 laps, and the 7 laps between them but was either getting stuffed into a corner, had to himself perform an overtake or otherwise was getting compromised by another rider pretty much the whole race, while Lorenzo had to battle for the first 2 laps, then exchanged easy overtakes with Marquez before the last lap.

You have now repeated "MM and JL are not obliged to adopt race strategies which will allow Rossi's strategy to beat them" about 8 times in this thread when no one has ever said anything of the sort.

Thats called racing. You really make it sound like if it were up to you, every rider on the track should have been removed the last 3 races except for Lorenzo and Rossi. Did you see Cal today scuffing up Marquez and retaking 2nd after Marquez passed him. He is not a part of the championship and i was terrified he was going to take out Marquez but he had every right to race for that position.
 
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Rossi is a cheat end off. I'm starting to really enjoy the way Marquez duffs him up every opportunity he gets. It's hilarious.
 
I couldn't help but notice how the puff piece they did on Rossi (before the Silverstone race) seemed to avoid any mention of him doing one of the dirtiest moves in GP history and the reason why he started at the back of the grid was because of choices he made.
 
My posts have been in response to your constant contention, except in a few recent posts concerning today's race on the race thread to which I have no objection, that MM screwed Valentino out of a title last year (this being at worst accurate paraphrasing on my part) and specifically that the way he raced at PI was suspicious and indicative of a conspiracy by him against Valentino.

Your conspiracy theory is bunkum, what MM inarguably did at PI 2015 was employ a race winning strategy ie a strategy which won the race. Something you seem unable to grasp hence the need for repetition.

Agree to disagree on well, almost every point.
 
The tires which most suited Lorenzo were the marshmellow ones rolled out for 2012. Ironically in 2013 when he was back on a Yamaha, Rossi was finishing a distant 4th, unable to get anywhere near Lorenzo or even lead a single lap let alone win 4 straight races on tires which didn't suit him.

Naturally it wasn't long before Rossi had a sook the tires were too soft for his hard braking style and that if he didn't become more competitive he would retire. Well how long did it take for the tire construction to change after that. Edge treating is the compound, I'm talking about the construction. When the front construction is soft, Rossi cant brake and Lorenzo simply disappears into the distance. When the construction is hard, Lorenzo lacks feel at the front and struggles more to maintain high corner speed. Even so, Lorenzo still won 4 races straight, and then under pressure the most important final race in Valencia. Unlike his main rival, he didn't choke. Ladies and gentlemen, we have the deserved champion for 2015.

So the only fair tyres were the ones in 2012-2013, after which there was a conspiracy to provide Rossi the perfect tyres at Lorenzos expense? With that premise no wonder your viewpoints are what they are.
 
Thats called racing. You really make it sound like if it were up to you, every rider on the track should have been removed the last 3 races except for Lorenzo and Rossi. Did you see Cal today scuffing up Marquez and retaking 2nd after Marquez passed him. He is not a part of the championship and i was terrified he was going to take out Marquez but he had every right to race for that position.

I have never said anything like this. And you avoided the point of that quote as well.
 
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So the only fair tyres were the ones in 2012-2013, after which there was a conspiracy to provide Rossi the perfect tyres at Lorenzos expense? With that premise no wonder your viewpoints are what they are.

What would be fair would be a wider range of tyres to suit different bikes and riders, which hasn't really happened since the control tyre rule.

Rossi can have whatever tyre he wants as far as I am concerned. What I object to are capricious decisions to remove tyres which suit riders other than him, which certainly happened to Stoner at least once and probably twice. I am not sure whether it was deliberately done to Lorenzo, but you seem to acknowledge that tyre became unavailable.

It is blindingly obvious changing the characteristics of the tyres has a major influence on performance of both bikes and riders; ask Kawasaki, Suzuki or Ducati. Whether Dorna are deliberately manipulating matters using the tyres, to Rossi's benefit or not, is a different question; incompetence is always a starter in the field when they are involved. I have little doubt with the mid-season tyre change in 2012 that Casey Stoner being adversely affected was at the very least a welcome collateral consequence however.

And once again you dismiss in a superior manner the arguments of others as conspiracy theories while subscribing to one yourself, the largest conspiracy theory in the history of the sport, in regard to the PI 2015 race, one promulgated to the world press rather than bandied about by a few people on an obscure Internet forum, and a much more ridiculous theory than that tyres may have been manipulated, that theory in essence being that Marc Marquez tanked a race he actually won.
 
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So the only fair tyres were the ones in 2012-2013, after which there was a conspiracy to provide Rossi the perfect tyres at Lorenzos expense? With that premise no wonder your viewpoints are what they are.

"I have never said anything like this. And you avoided the point of that quite as well."

Thanks for the ready made response.

My viewpoint is the 2012 tires were changed to help a certain underperforming rider on a pos bike that didn't turn, lacked front end feel and suffered front washout without warning. Both Carlos Checa and loris Capirossi were used to put pressure on Bridgestone to do something.

Rubber Wars: MotoGP, Bridgestone, Ducati and Valentino Rossi | Cycle World

For Lorenzo it was just a happy coincidence. And btw not even predicted.

According to Smith I believe, the 2012 tire actually reduced corner speed, because the front bounced and skipped sideways as the sidewalls deflected under load. Should have been bad for Lorenzo. And good for Ducati, the thing didn't corner anyway. By pure coincidence, they suited butter smooth Lorenzo to a tee, he was the only rider able to keep his corner speed advantage. Basically he was one of the few that brake early, release and freewheel through the turn. Others (Rossi) brake to the apex. That vote backfired eh Valentino? I predict we wont be seeing that soft tire construction again anytime soon.
 
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Didn't Rossi later admit that he knew the soft carcass tyres were crapulent, but voted for them anyway because he was "already in the ...." on the Ducati?
 
I find it interesting how we know tires are manipulated, yet we all pretend it's done fairly. It's like the laws of the world cease to exist in the bubble that is MotoGP. Maybe the Vatican isn't corrupt since they preach Jesus.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.
 
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And once again you dismiss in a superior manner the arguments of others as conspiracy theories while subscribing to one yourself, the largest conspiracy theory in the history of the sport, in regard to the PI 2015 race, one promulgated to the world press rather than bandied about by a few people on an obscure Internet forum, and a much more ridiculous theory than that tyres may have been manipulated, that theory in essence being that Marc Marquez tanked a race he actually won.

1) What do you mean by a conspiracy theory? You think I think Marquez and Lorenzo were working together in those races?

2) I never said Marquez tanked PI.
 
QUOTE=GeniusAtTwerk;422130]1) What do you mean by a conspiracy theory? You think I think Marquez and Lorenzo were working together in those races?

2) I never said Marquez tanked PI.[/QUOTE]

What exactly is he required to do as a GP bike rider other than win a given race with no illegal/non-racing moves?. In my view MM was at pains not to take out any contenders at PI 2015. If he had lost, his strategy, luck etc can be questioned, but he can do no more than win, particularly in a race he had not previously completed in the premier class. Are you advocating deep electrode implantation into the effort centres of the brain (wherever they may be) to measure whether equal effort is given against all riders?. MM gave sufficient effort to win the race, defeating all competitors, no more can be required of him. According to such luminaries as Juan Manuel Fangio, Niki Lauda, Jack Brabham et al, winning by more than is necessary is injudicious, but what would they know?

You would seem to be going down the same track as many others, picking at/being a stickler for minor points (not very effectively I might add, switching from the general to the literal as suits your purpose, not a particularly elusive strategy) while not being able to defend your main position.
 
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QUOTE=GeniusAtTwerk;422130]1) What do you mean by a conspiracy theory? You think I think Marquez and Lorenzo were working together in those races?

2) I never said Marquez tanked PI.

What exactly is he required to do as a GP bike rider other than win a given race with no illegal/non-racing moves?. In my view MM was at pains not to take out any contenders at PI 2015. If he had lost, his strategy, luck etc can be questioned, but he can do no more than win, particularly in a race he had not previously completed in the premier class. Are you advocating deep electrode implantation into the effort centres of the brain (wherever they may be) to measure whether equal effort is given against all riders?. MM gave sufficient effort to win the race, defeating all competitors, no more can be required of him. According to such luminaries as Juan Manuel Fangio, Niki Lauda, Jack Brabham et al, winning by more than is necessary is injudicious, but what would they know?

You would seem to be going down the same track as many others, picking at/being a stickler for minor points (not very effectively I might add, switching from the general to the literal as suits your purpose, not a particularly elusive strategy) while not being able to defend your main position.[/QUOTE]

Why do you think the fact that Marquez won PI excuses any other action done throughout the race? That as long as the rider with clearly the best pace barely wins, no analysis can't be made? That the fact he won PI somehow makes events of Sepang and Valencia ok as well.

"deep electrode implantation into the effort centres of the brain (wherever they may be) to measure whether equal effort is given against all riders" sounds good tbh, is there such technology around?

Eh, I'd consider being a stickler a far better position to have than whatever yours is, where your only argument is that Marquez won PI. I'd also like you to show where I've failed to support my main position; I think I've been quite consistent with it throughout this thread.
 
What exactly is he required to do as a GP bike rider other than win a given race with no illegal/non-racing moves?. In my view MM was at pains not to take out any contenders at PI 2015. If he had lost, his strategy, luck etc can be questioned, but he can do no more than win, particularly in a race he had not previously completed in the premier class. Are you advocating deep electrode implantation into the effort centres of the brain (wherever they may be) to measure whether equal effort is given against all riders?. MM gave sufficient effort to win the race, defeating all competitors, no more can be required of him. According to such luminaries as Juan Manuel Fangio, Niki Lauda, Jack Brabham et al, winning by more than is necessary is injudicious, but what would they know?

You would seem to be going down the same track as many others, picking at/being a stickler for minor points (not very effectively I might add, switching from the general to the literal as suits your purpose, not a particularly elusive strategy) while not being able to defend your main position.

Why do you think the fact that Marquez won PI excuses any other action done throughout the race? That as long as the rider with clearly the best pace barely wins, no analysis can't be made? That the fact he won PI somehow makes events of Sepang and Valencia ok as well.

"deep electrode implantation into the effort centres of the brain (wherever they may be) to measure whether equal effort is given against all riders" sounds good tbh, is there such technology around?

Eh, I'd consider being a stickler a far better position to have than whatever yours is, where your only argument is that Marquez won PI. I'd also like you to show where I've failed to support my main position; I think I've been quite consistent with it throughout this thread.[/QUOTE]

I was joking. They do it to detect epileptic foci.

I repeat he won the race. I need give no other argument, this is the actual aim of the whole endeavour, and some of the greats of motorsport as I have detailed have opined that winning should be at the slowest pace which will be successful rather than the fastest which is possible, which would apply imo even more so to a formerly very dominant multiple world champion who had fallen into the rather bad habit of crashing out in over 30% of the last 18 races he contested, starting with PI 2014 where he employed exactly the tactics you maintain he should have employed, or was obliged to employ, for the 2015 race. I think he also has a duty in the circumstances not to put a contender at risk of being taken out by an intemperate move of his, which he also clearly fulfilled at PI 2015, if not so much at Sepang although he still rode quite legally imo watching live and in the opinion of RD, and in fact rather cleanly by his previous standards, again imo. Rossi always had the option of settling for 4th with no risk of crashing out of the race at Sepang if he was not good enough to get and stay in front of MM in that race, btw.

What you consistently have done is to give your unchanged opinion about the events of late 2015, an opinion to which you are obviously entitled as to any other opinion you may have, including the moon being made of green cheese if that is your opinion as to its constitution. What you have consistently failed to do is provide any of the evidence you claim backs your opinion, other than it being the opinion of others including one Valentino Rossi, quite possibly because such evidence doesn't exist.

What is really amusing is you trying to split hairs over the definition of a conspiracy; call it a plot then if it just involves one man. Those you dispute over tyre conspiracy theories could equally argue that it is all a plot by one man rather than a conspiracy among many, a bloke named Carmelo Ezpeleta I would imagine being their likely candidate.
 
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