Rossi: "I paid too much for last year"

michaelm said:

My point was simple. Had he been good enough/fast enough to beat Pedrosa in 4 races and Iannone in another in the last 5 races of the season what MM did would have been irrelevant, so why are you blaming MM and not the others?

It is only rumour and innuendo, but at least as firmly based as anything you are raising, that Rossi approached both Pedrosa and Iannone to ask them why they were trying to beat him to the detriment of his championship hopes.

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Well sure, if Rossi had won every race before PI not much anything could do. That's a hypothetical that's not interesting to me.

I remember the same rumours about Pedrosa in Aragon, but that it was more playful joking "why you race me so hard Dani :furious: " rather than serious "don't race me Dani ".

#22 said:

Of course it was, but you have yet to provide any evidence that it was deliberate.

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Of course, because that is impossible. By that logic no one can have an opinion either way because no one can know for sure.

povol said:

Wrong,Wrong Wrong Rossi had passed Iannone for third in turn 6 and clearly led him headed into turns 7-8 [the fast esses] .Iannone passed him in the fast esses and held that lead till Rossi passed him at turn 10 but ran wide allowing Iannone back through. Horsepower had nothing to do with either.

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You're right, I remembered wrong. Well, even if we assume Iannone had better pace and would've beaten Rossi for 2nd, that is still a 10 point swing compared to the actual results.

birdman said:

Is this really the best you got? Marquez screwed Rossi by speeding up and slowing down? And Rossi "the master" racer as Nick Harris compulsively repeats ad neusium was at a loss to deal with this new mastermind tactic? Speeding up and slowing down. You know what that is, it's called controlling the pace. Of the race, to suit yourself. A rider doesn't control to pace of the race to suit their rivals, which appears to be what you are suggesting Marquez should have done.

We witnessed 4 straight races with Lorenzo leading every single lap. In the present day and age this gets dismissed but to me with the level of competition and the knowledge tires didn't particularly suit him, if JLo had his way they would be much softer construction, he still won those races in a way Rossi never has. Rossi has never been a great front runner, controlling the pace, at least it's not what he's known for. He's known for sitting behind leaders and conserving his tires. At PI he clearly didnt set the pace, either wouldn't or couldn't, makes no difference. To me he wanted to sit on Marquez ... and use him to get a tow up to Lorenzo, because just like in the other 4 straight races he didn't have the pace to do it himself. If Marquez is so clever he then decided to "speed up and slow down" to counteract the masters tactic then good for him. I applaud it actually.

I raised an eyebrow in that interview where Rossi mentioned the rivalry with Biaggi was 'better'. Yeah better for him. In fact it's always been better for Rossi to encourage hate with rivals. We have in the list Biaggi, Gibbernau, Stoner, Lorenzo, and now Marquez. It's very consistent, with one common denominator, and it's obvious to me the hate is a tactic for not just him but his mighty yellow fa club to put extra pressure on his rivals. If with Marquez he's finally met his match, if even as you think Marquez deliberately denied Rossi the championship, then so what? Karmas a ..... baby.

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Well Marquez did a terrible job controlling the pace and race, after all that controlling put him in a battle almost constantly throughout the race, and forced him to pull out an incredible last lap and having to pass 2 riders, despite having the best pace.

How is Lorenzo leading every lap for 4 races a pro for him, especially when Rossi showed similar or better pace in Catalunya and similar pace in Le Mans, but suffered from his starting positions. I don't understand how Lorenzo didn't have the tyres he wanted, he had his favourite edge-treated tyres in every race he won except Mugello.

Rossis FL was 3.5 tenths faster than Lorenzos, he had multiple laps faster than Lorenzos FL despite Lorenzo being able to run his optimal pace for many more laps, yet your point is that he needed a tow from Marquez to catch Lorenzo?

"A knife at my throat" hahaha. If he dare looked in the mirror he would probably notice that it was him holding the knife.

GeniusAtTwerk said:

Well Marquez did a terrible job controlling the pace and race, after all that controlling put him in a battle almost constantly throughout the race, and forced him to pull out an incredible last lap and having to pass 2 riders, despite having the best pace.

How is Lorenzo leading every lap for 4 races a pro for him, especially when Rossi showed similar or better pace in Catalunya and similar pace in Le Mans, but suffered from his starting positions. I don't understand how Lorenzo didn't have the tyres he wanted, he had his favourite edge-treated tyres in every race he won except Mugello.

Rossis FL was 3.5 tenths faster than Lorenzos, he had multiple laps faster than Lorenzos FL despite Lorenzo being able to run his optimal pace for many more laps, yet your point is that he needed a tow from Marquez to catch Lorenzo?

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Again you answer your own question. Lorenzo's strategy removed all the problems you list to which VR was subject with a strategy of coming through the field late, particularly against the current quality of opposition, hence perhaps why he has tried something different this year.

As is the wont of those of your ilk, you haven't answered Birdman's point in any case, MM and Lorenzo don't have to run strategies which suit Rossi, they can reasonably be expected to do the opposite in a GP bike race in fact. MM's strategy was a successful one, it won him the PI race ffs which you continue to seem unable to grasp, and apart from the notion that he can order the places from 2 to 4 behind him being ludicrous a priori, if he can and did, so what? What he didn't do was stay back to block Rossi and let Lorenzo have the win which would have obviously been his choice if his aim was to maximally advantage Lorenzo. As you have in fact posted, he left Rossi in Iannone's clutches and went to chase Lorenzo. Sounds like a good strategy to win the race to me, as it indeed proved to be.

(EDIT Just for my interest as someone amused by fractured logic, why is it allowable for Rossi to be faster or ride faster at the end of a race, but not MM ?).
MotoGP Forum > MotoGP Forum > MotoGP

GeniusAtTwerk said:

Well sure, if Rossi had won every race before PI not much anything could do. That's a hypothetical that's not interesting to me.

I remember the same rumours about Pedrosa in Aragon, but that it was more playful joking "why you race me so hard Dani :furious: " rather than serious "don't race me Dani ".

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This post suggests you have looked up the definition of the "straw man" logical fallacy since our previous discussion and seek to exemplify same. You are the one propounding the unproven and unprovable conspiracy theory in your every post btw.

VR didn't have to win every race, he just needed to beat the guy who finished 4th in the championship in 4 of them and a rider who finished worse than that in one of them. I don't disagree he deserved his lead in the championship in the circumstances which had prevailed, but equally he perhaps didn't deserve to keep that lead when he couldn't beat the 4th and 5th best guys let alone JL and MM in the end of season races.

GeniusAtTwerk said:

Well Marquez did a terrible job controlling the pace and race, after all that controlling put him in a battle almost constantly throughout the race, and forced him to pull out an incredible last lap and having to pass 2 riders, despite having the best pace.

How is Lorenzo leading every lap for 4 races a pro for him, especially when Rossi showed similar or better pace in Catalunya and similar pace in Le Mans, but suffered from his starting positions. I don't understand how Lorenzo didn't have the tyres he wanted, he had his favourite edge-treated tyres in every race he won except Mugello.

Rossis FL was 3.5 tenths faster than Lorenzos, he had multiple laps faster than Lorenzos FL despite Lorenzo being able to run his optimal pace for many more laps, yet your point is that he needed a tow from Marquez to catch Lorenzo?

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When you are getting double drafts from a Honda and a Ducati on a straight like PI, its not hard to make up a couple of tenths on a guy running alone at the front, especially if he is on one of the slowest straight line bikes on the grid. If you will go back and look, Rossi speeds were 5-6 kmph faster than Lorenzo on a regular basis simply because Lorenzo was leading and Rossi was getting a huge tow. As far as pace, , Lorenzo, Marquez, and Ianonne had better pace than Rossi in the last 10 laps when it matters, not on lap 8
Marquez had 6 of the last 10 in the 1.29's
Lorenzo had 8
Ianonne had 7
Rossi had 5

GeniusAtTwerk said:

What documents were those?

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He brought time sheets to the Italian press so he could wind their ........ ..... up and get them going. And of course, being the Italian press, they went full on .........

Could flossi be trying to resurrect last year's fiasco in an attempt to get the custard army to abuse Marquez once again?
Marc cleverly stepped in and initiated the handshake after Salom passed, and since then he's had an easy time from Rossi's goons.
About now would be the time that Rossi would start his latest psychological attack, this man is lower than a snake's belly when he isn't getting his own way.
Isn't ousting Lorenzo from the team and having the whole of Yamaha jumping about for him enough?

michaelm said:

Again you answer your own question. Lorenzo's strategy removed all the problems you list to which VR was subject with a strategy of coming through the field late, particularly against the current quality of opposition, hence perhaps why he has tried something different this year.

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Well sure, I don't hold it against Lorenzo to win those races, just pointing out how silly the argument that Lorenzo didn't have tyres he wanted in 2015, when in all but 4 races (3 of which Rossi was faster than him) the edge-treated tyres were provided, that famously didn't provide major improvements to many other riders.

michaelm said:

This post suggests you have looked up the definition of the "straw man" logical fallacy since our previous discussion and seek to exemplify same. You are the one propounding the unproven and unprovable conspiracy theory in your every post btw.

VR didn't have to win every race, he just needed to beat the guy who finished 4th in the championship in 4 of them and a rider who finished worse than that in one of them. I don't disagree he deserved his lead in the championship in the circumstances which had prevailed, but equally he perhaps didn't deserve to keep that lead when he couldn't beat the 4th and 5th best guys let alone JL and MM in the end of season races.

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What kind of qualifications are those? That's like me saying Lorenzo needed to beat Petrucci of all people in Silverstone to "deserve" it. Would Rossi had deserved it if he lost to those riders still but instead had had a 50 point advantage? That's just poor argumentation.

"he just needed to beat the guy who finished 4th in the championship in 4 of them and a rider who finished worse than that in one of them."

That's like a 30-35 point swing, so no, he didn't need to do that.

Apparently Lorenzo himself thought he was helped to win the title at Valencia, although for different reasons that I think.

povol said:

He brought time sheets to the Italian press so he could wind their ........ ..... up and get them going. And of course, being the Italian press, they went full on .........

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How were they doctored?

GeniusAtTwerk said:

What kind of qualifications are those? That's like me saying Lorenzo needed to beat Petrucci of all people in Silverstone to "deserve" it. Would Rossi had deserved it if he lost to those riders still but instead had had a 50 point advantage? That's just poor argumentation.

"he just needed to beat the guy who finished 4th in the championship in 4 of them and a rider who finished worse than that in one of them."

That's like a 30-35 point swing, so no, he didn't need to do that.

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I will take this "argumentation" again slowly for you.

He would have deserved to win had he finished the season with the most points, even if that was by 1 point. He didn't "deserve" to win because he had a lead earlier in the season, well deserved though his lead may have been at the time he had it. You concentrate on the points in one race, a race won by MM fairly and legally, and hence his tactics/strategy being successful can't really be questioned except by fantasists such as you and Valentino Rossi, because no alternative strategy could possibly have improved his result, while many alternative strategies could have led to him not winning the race, by crashing out or not having his tyres in optimal condition at the end of the race for example.

Rossi indeed didn't need to beat the 4th best rider in 4 of the races concerned and the 5th best rider in another to win the title, even managing to do so on 2 occasions would have sufficed. Your point is?

michaelm said:

I will take this "argumentation" again slowly for you.

He would have deserved to win had he finished the season with the most points, even if that was by 1 point. He didn't "deserve" to win because he had a lead earlier in the season, well deserved though his lead may have been at the time he had it. You concentrate on the points in one race, a race won by MM fairly and legally, and hence his tactics/strategy being successful can't really be questioned except by fantasists such as you and Valentino Rossi, because no alternative strategy could possibly have improved his result, while many alternative strategies could have led to him not winning the race, by crashing out or not having his tyres in optimal condition at the end of the race for example.

Rossi indeed didn't need to beat the 4th best rider in 4 of the races concerned and the 5th best rider in another to win the title, even managing to do so on 2 occasions would have sufficed. Your point is?

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Thanks for being so considerate.

You've actually got it the wrong way despite your efforts in trying to be clear, I never focused on "concentrating on one race" to trying to determine whether Rossi ever was deserving of the title or not, other people did that to try to deflect from the topic at hand.

Eh, it's easy to try to win the argument by accusing me of fantasizing things when the matter can't be solved either way. I believe what I believe on the rather substantial amount of factors that make the the end of the season seem a suspicious. You may believe what you want; just from a quick scroll of this forum there seems to be plenty of conspiracy theories going the other way not only regarding the end of 2015, but plenty of other topics, based on much flimsier evidence than what I've presented.

My point is that your argument was poor and you seemed confused about the math, so I tried to help you.

GeniusAtTwerk said:

Thanks for being so considerate.

You've actually got it the wrong way despite your efforts in trying to be clear, I never focused on "concentrating on one race" to trying to determine whether Rossi ever was deserving of the title or not, other people did that to try to deflect from the topic at hand.

Eh, it's easy to try to win the argument by accusing me of fantasizing things when the matter can't be solved either way. I believe what I believe on the rather substantial amount of factors that make the the end of the season seem a suspicious. You may believe what you want; just from a quick scroll of this forum there seems to be plenty of conspiracy theories going the other way not only regarding the end of 2015, but plenty of other topics, based on much flimsier evidence than what I've presented.

My point is that your argument was poor and you seemed confused about the math, so I tried to help you.

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Conspiracy theories abound here, some serious and others not so serious (you continue to demonstrate your mastery of the "straw man" logical fallacy btw), but from a few guys on an obscure Internet forum, not announced as fact to the world press at large to the detriment of another rider almost certain to also finish his career in the top 5 of all time, imo and that of others quite possibly in an attempt to intimidate that rider.

You keep saying your opinion is based on evidence and present no such evidence because none exists, given that the race supposedly involving the conspiracy is a race MM won, in the process depriving Jorge Lorenzo of 5 points by beating him, a race in which Rossi could not beat a third rider, Andrea Iannone, in a straight fight on the last lap. Even apart from it being ludicrous to suggest MM could determine the positions behind him in a race he won other than by taking other riders out or running them off the track earlier in the race, which he didn't do, that being more a tactic of your boy's obviously, and the ludicrous nature of an accusation that a rider threw a race he actually won, you have no way of knowing what capabilities Lorenzo may have had if challenged by Rossi anyway.

We have come to that point. You are obviously free to have the opinion that the moon is made of green cheese, but perhaps shouldn't expect anyone to give much credence to that opinion if you can provide no evidence to support it.

(EDIT That my argument was poor seems to be another "moon/cheese" opinion btw, given you merely repeat that opinion whilst providing no rebuttal, and my arithmetic and mathematics are fine, quite provably so, unlike your comprehension of a fairly simple argument based on arithmetic, ie that the 10 point or so turnaround which may have occurred in the unlikely event of Lorenzo somehow dropping 3 places on the last lap to finish 4th behind Rossi in third, Rossi obviously being unable to beat MM by your own argument or Iannone with whom he had a straight fight, is dwarfed by the number of points he could have gained by being able to beat MM or Pedrosa in the races I listed. I didn't think I needed to spell out to you that there are numbers less than 31 which also exceed 5 or 10, but if you felt the need to make that clear to yourself I have no objection. Then of course there are also the 3 points Rossi gained by taking out the faster by your own argument MM at Sepang, or 16 as some would argue given him not being black flagged or disqualified for such blatant illegality.)

michaelm said:

We have come to that point. You are obviously free to have the opinion that the moon is made of green cheese, but perhaps shouldn't expect anyone to give much credence to that opinion if you can provide no evidence to support it.

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Bad example ..... there is quite clear ( to a bopper ) evidence that the moon is indeed made of cheese .....




though it does not appear to be green .....

povol said:

When you are getting double drafts from a Honda and a Ducati on a straight like PI, its not hard to make up a couple of tenths on a guy running alone at the front, especially if he is on one of the slowest straight line bikes on the grid. If you will go back and look, Rossi speeds were 5-6 kmph faster than Lorenzo on a regular basis simply because Lorenzo was leading and Rossi was getting a huge tow. As far as pace, , Lorenzo, Marquez, and Ianonne had better pace than Rossi in the last 10 laps when it matters, not on lap 8
Marquez had 6 of the last 10 in the 1.29's
Lorenzo had 8
Ianonne had 7
Rossi had 5

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Missed this, so what you are suggesting is that looking back at the races of Lorenzo and Rossi, Rossi race was more optimal for the outright fastest time at the end of the race? If you do, then there is really not much to discuss.

The last 10 laps thing is ironic as well considering in all but 1 of Lorenzos wins that season the difference had been made by lap 8.

GeniusAtTwerk said:

Missed this, so what you are suggesting is that looking back at the races of Lorenzo and Rossi, Rossi race was more optimal for the outright fastest time at the end of the race? If you do, then there is really not much to discuss.

The last 10 laps thing is ironic as well considering in all but 1 of Lorenzos wins that season the difference had been made by lap 8.

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FFS, have you ever watched GP bike racing? Of course if a rider makes a gap early it may be at some cost to the condition of his tyres, but also usually means he doesn't need to ride at his maximum pace at the end of the race, something you seem to think Lorenzo and MM should do at the same time you are praising Rossi's race strategy of being fast at the end.

Ya pays ya money and ya makes ya choice as is said. MM and JL are not obliged to adopt race strategies which will allow Rossi's strategy to beat them, quite the opposite is what might be reasonably expected as I have said, and whether another rider might beat Rossi as well as MM in a race MM wins is entirely Rossi's problem and not MM's at all.

michaelm said:

FFS, have you ever watched GP bike racing? Of course if a rider makes a gap early it may be at some cost to the condition of his tyres, but also usually means he doesn't need to ride at his maximum pace at the end of the race, something you seem to think Lorenzo and MM should do at the same time you are praising Rossi's race strategy of being fast at the end.

Ya pays ya money and ya makes ya choice as is said. MM and JL are not obliged to adopt race strategies which will allow Rossi's strategy to beat them, quite the opposite is what might be reasonably expected as I have said, and whether another rider might beat Rossi as well as MM in a race MM wins is entirely Rossi's problem and not MM's at all.

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What are you talking about? Your post didn't address anything you quoted.

Let me make it clear for you. I think Lorenzos race was much more optimal for best overall time (by perhaps 3-5 seconds), I also think Rossi was faster in the first 10 laps, the last 10 laps, and the 7 laps between them but was either getting stuffed into a corner, had to himself perform an overtake or otherwise was getting compromised by another rider pretty much the whole race, while Lorenzo had to battle for the first 2 laps, then exchanged easy overtakes with Marquez before the last lap.

You have now repeated "MM and JL are not obliged to adopt race strategies which will allow Rossi's strategy to beat them" about 8 times in this thread when no one has ever said anything of the sort.