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Rossi: "I paid too much for last year"

"I repeat he won the race. I need give no other argument, this is the actual aim of the whole endeavour, and some of the greats of motorsport as I have detailed have opined that winning should be at the slowest pace which will be successful rather than the fastest which is possible"

Actually that point is used to make when a person is leading, to control the pace, to avoid risks and save machinery, because there is no need to win by a big margin. Definitely not applicable to PI.

"I think he also has a duty in the circumstances not to put a contender at risk of being taken out by an intemperate move of his, which he also clearly fulfilled at PI 2015, if not so much at Sepang although he still rode quite legally imo watching live and in the opinion of RD, and in fact rather cleanly by his previous standards, again imo."

So now you are arguing that championship contenders are someone that other riders have to be careful around? This is a change, well if that is the case he did a terrible job of it in both PI and Sepang for Rossi, and suspiciously excellent job of it in Sepang and Valencia for Lorenzo, something even Lorenzo admitted.

"Rossi always had the option of settling for 4th with no risk of crashing out of the race at Sepang if he was not good enough to get and stay in front of MM in that race, btw."

That is clearly not an option realistically speaking.

"What you consistently have done is to give your unchanged opinion about the events of late 2015, an opinion to which you are obviously entitled as to any other opinion you may have, including the moon being made of green cheese if that is your opinion as to its constitution. What you have consistently failed to do is provide any of the evidence you claim backs your opinion, other than it being the opinion of others including one Valentino Rossi, quite possibly because such evidence doesn't exist."

Repetitive. What's the obsession with moon and green cheese by the way?

"What is really amusing is you trying to split hairs over the definition of a conspiracy; call it a plot then if it just involves one man. Those you dispute over tyre conspiracy theories could equally argue that it is all a plot by one man rather than a conspiracy among many, a bloke named Carmelo Ezpeleta I would imagine being their likely candidate."

Sure, the definition of the matter is not that important. And you are free to believe Stoner was screwed over countless times over his career if it makes you feel better, I won't stop you.
 
Why are you guys continuing to argue with yet another Rossi troll?

That's not a very good way to argue. You do realize it is very destructive for any forum to react to opposing viewpoints by accusing them of trolling; I'm not surprised this forum is the way it is considering that.
 
"I repeat he won the race. I need give no other argument, this is the actual aim of the whole endeavour, and some of the greats of motorsport as I have detailed have opined that winning should be at the slowest pace which will be successful rather than the fastest which is possible"

Actually that point is used to make when a person is leading, to control the pace, to avoid risks and save machinery, because there is no need to win by a big margin. Definitely not applicable to PI.

"I think he also has a duty in the circumstances not to put a contender at risk of being taken out by an intemperate move of his, which he also clearly fulfilled at PI 2015, if not so much at Sepang although he still rode quite legally imo watching live and in the opinion of RD, and in fact rather cleanly by his previous standards, again imo."

So now you are arguing that championship contenders are someone that other riders have to be careful around? This is a change, well if that is the case he did a terrible job of it in both PI and Sepang for Rossi, and suspiciously excellent job of it in Sepang and Valencia for Lorenzo, something even Lorenzo admitted.

"Rossi always had the option of settling for 4th with no risk of crashing out of the race at Sepang if he was not good enough to get and stay in front of MM in that race, btw."

That is clearly not an option realistically speaking.

"What you consistently have done is to give your unchanged opinion about the events of late 2015, an opinion to which you are obviously entitled as to any other opinion you may have, including the moon being made of green cheese if that is your opinion as to its constitution. What you have consistently failed to do is provide any of the evidence you claim backs your opinion, other than it being the opinion of others including one Valentino Rossi, quite possibly because such evidence doesn't exist."

Repetitive. What's the obsession with moon and green cheese by the way?

"What is really amusing is you trying to split hairs over the definition of a conspiracy; call it a plot then if it just involves one man. Those you dispute over tyre conspiracy theories could equally argue that it is all a plot by one man rather than a conspiracy among many, a bloke named Carmelo Ezpeleta I would imagine being their likely candidate."

Sure, the definition of the matter is not that important. And you are free to believe Stoner was screwed over countless times over his career if it makes you feel better, I won't stop you.
You seem to have a problem with comprehension. You basically claim you are virtuous and/or correct because you have vehemently/consistently stuck by your opinions. My point is that what you have been doing is continually re-stating your opinion concerning season 2015 without offering any rebuttal of counter arguments or providing any of the evidence you claim exists to support that opinion, and could just as vehemently and consistently maintain that the moon is made of green cheese with similar lack of evidence.

I will confess to being rather lost where your objection to my contention that a rider can do no more than win a given race as long as he rides cleanly and legally, something I would previously have considered self evident to any follower of this sport. MM won the race, which means he rode hard enough against both Rossi and Lorenzo, and everyone else for that matter, to do so. Any alternative strategy could not have given him any better result, while there are very many ways he could have lost the race, particularly given he crashed out of a dominant lead the previous year. Only he knows what the state of his tyres etc was at various times during the race, or what his intentions and motives were as he himself has said this very week-end. My jibe about the electrode implants concerned how it is to be determined or enforced that a rider while racing legally competes with equal effort against all opponents during the whole course of a race if this is to be required of riders in addition to actually winning the race.


I don't claim any extra titles for Stoner, just as I don't for Mick Doohan, which is the difference between Rossi fans of your ilk and general fans of the sport who still may favour individual riders. Stoner clearly had the chance to win the 2012 title and didn't take it, and Rossi was a well deserved champion who rode excellently in 2008, as he was and did in all his championship wins imo.

What I object to is people such as you trying to claim titles for Rossi other than those he won, and attributing titles won by other riders to equipment advantages or luck, which is where all this argy-bargy really started back in 2006 and 2007, particularly given Rossi has (mostly deservedly) almost always had very good equipment, and didn't do so well when he himself was on a bike other than a factory Honda or Yamaha.
 
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That's not a very good way to argue. You do realize it is very destructive for any forum to react to opposing viewpoints by accusing them of trolling; I'm not surprised this forum is the way it is considering that.

I argue because it amuses me, and I haven't called you a troll and don't do so in general.
 
I don't claim any extra titles for Stoner, just as I don't for Mick Doohan, which is the difference between Rossi fans of your ilk and general fans of the sport who still may favour individual riders. Stoner clearly had the chance to win the 2012 title and didn't take it, and Rossi was a well deserved champion who rode excellently in 2008, as he was and did in all his championship wins imo.

What I object to is people such as you trying to claim titles for Rossi other than those he won, and attributing titles won by other riders to equipment advantages or luck, which is where all this argy-bargy really started back in 2006 and 2007, particularly given Rossi has (mostly deservedly) almost always had very good equipment, and didn't do so well when he himself was on a bike other than a factory Honda or Yamaha.

Skipped the first part of your post since it looked to be more of the same.

As for claiming extra titles, I already made the distinction that if my suspicions were to be proven correct, this is completely different (in a worse way) scenario to any equipment advantage or bad luck; another rider directly sabotaging one contender to make him lose the title is pretty unprecedented in this sport, at least to the extent of it. That's why I consider 2015 to be different to 2006 for example.

As to your other point, no one will take the titles of Hayden in 2006 or Stoner in 2007 away from them, the point is that arguing another rider, in this case Rossi to have been better than them despite the fact he scored less points, doesn't make the titles meaningless. Just like you could argue Stoner was better than Rossi in 2008 and 2009.

Isn't a big part of Stoner's myth based on exactly this?

Rossi having spent his career with good machinery (although those are overrated IMO, he's between 6-8 seasons with the best bike from 16 depending how you see, 2015 and 2016, with a terrible injury-ridden season in one of them) doesn't come into account when analyzing singular seasons, where machinery or something else came in the way.

I think the points taken outside of riders control is a decent tool in comparing performances; with that in mind I personally believe Rossi outperformed Lorenzo in 2015 only to lose the title due to, although by a much smaller margin than in 2014 and so far in 2016.
 
Skipped the first part of your post since it looked to be more of the same.

As for claiming extra titles, I already made the distinction that if my suspicions were to be proven correct, this is completely different (in a worse way) scenario to any equipment advantage or bad luck; another rider directly sabotaging one contender to make him lose the title is pretty unprecedented in this sport, at least to the extent of it. That's why I consider 2015 to be different to 2006 for example.

As to your other point, no one will take the titles of Hayden in 2006 or Stoner in 2007 away from them, the point is that arguing another rider, in this case Rossi to have been better than them despite the fact he scored less points, doesn't make the titles meaningless. Just like you could argue Stoner was better than Rossi in 2008 and 2009.

Isn't a big part of Stoner's myth based on exactly this?

Rossi having spent his career with good machinery (although those are overrated IMO, he's between 6-8 seasons with the best bike from 16 depending how you see, 2015 and 2016, with a terrible injury-ridden season in one of them) doesn't come into account when analyzing singular seasons, where machinery or something else came in the way.

I think the points taken outside of riders control is a decent tool in comparing performances; with that in mind I personally believe Rossi outperformed Lorenzo in 2015 only to lose the title due to, although by a much smaller margin than in 2014 and so far in 2016.
Tell me why the "more of the same" is in error, which you continue to fail to do.

I completely disagree with what you do say. Being a sports fan is ridiculous enough considered objectively, making all sport conditional on the hypothetical as you propose makes it completely meaningless.

I am happy to credit all title winners with their titles, except possibly that lower class one which Loris Capirossi won by cheating. I would certainly have enjoyed Stoner winning more titles, but am happy he won the titles he won and to have watched him ride so spectacularly and win all those races he won. I am amenable to the notion that some title wins are against the odds and particularly well deserved, in which category I might include KRJR's win for Suzuki, Hayden's title, Stoner's winning of Ducati's only title, and perhaps Rossi's initial Yamaha title and Lorenzo's 2012 title. I guess winning as a rookie as KRSR and MM did is exceptional as well.
 
That's not a very good way to argue. You do realize it is very destructive for any forum to react to opposing viewpoints by accusing them of trolling; I'm not surprised this forum is the way it is considering that.

I'm not arguing. It is a documented fact that any time criticism of Rossi is posted you respond with "But"..making any excuse for Rossi. Michael M did a direct comparison of Stoner Vs Rossi on factory machines (2007-2011) and in those 5 seasons Stoner won more races, the same number of titles and most importantly, twenty something more wins on the Ducati than Rossi.

You respond by saying "that is a poor comparison"...only because it shows your boy Rossi in poor light. Hence the troll.
 
That's not a very good way to argue. You do realize it is very destructive for any forum to react to opposing viewpoints by accusing them of trolling; I'm not surprised this forum is the way it is considering that.

Sir, you are being trolled hard by the monkeys on this forum. No need to waste your time trying to prove anything, Rossi is the GOAT period. Every 'eveidence' or result you provide will be shot down on this pathetic forum, so no need bother. Even the truth is false in this place. The moronic conspiracy theory are result of the jealousy of his popularity and incredible results that these people can not handle, so they invent all sorts of rubbish excuse; special tires, special brake, special engine, special leathers, special seat, special jock strap, jet fuel, and of course back door race fixing with RD, Carmelo and Dorna. I would save my keystrokes, some of the people trolling you are senile and despise this man with such passion that it has engulf their entire lives. Result is the only thing he will be judge by in history. This forum will erupt in vitriol when Rossi win's the title this year and I look forward to watch the meltdown in here at season end.
 
Sir, you are being trolled hard by the monkeys on this forum. No need to waste your time trying to prove anything, Rossi is the GOAT period. Every 'eveidence' or result you provide will be shot down on this pathetic forum, so no need bother. Even the truth is false in this place. The moronic conspiracy theory are result of the jealousy of his popularity and incredible results that these people can not handle, so they invent all sorts of rubbish excuse; special tires, special brake, special engine, special leathers, special seat, special jock strap, jet fuel, and of course back door race fixing with RD, Carmelo and Dorna. I would save my keystrokes, some of the people trolling you are senile and despise this man with such passion that it has engulf their entire lives. Result is the only thing he will be judge by in history. This forum will erupt in vitriol when Rossi win's the title this year and I look forward to watch the meltdown in here at season end.

Yes, he is a poster of exactly the same stamp as you, both of you confuse your opinions with fact, are unable to defend them, and get narky when other posters can defend their own opinions.

The biggest amusement is that both of you constantly cry 'conspiracy theory' in response to criticism of Rossi (mainly of his ethics and hardly at all of his riding in my case) while quite often simultaneously proclaiming Rossi's own conspiracy theories as proven fact. I am very happy to acknowledge all his riding success and fully credit him for all his titles. It is the attempted awarding to him of titles he didn't win, such as the 2006, 2007, 2010 and 2015 titles as your comrade in arms has been doing on this thread, to which I object.
 
Sir, you are being trolled hard by the monkeys on this forum. No need to waste your time trying to prove anything, Rossi is the GOAT period.

How so? Giacomo Agostini has 15 titles and 122 wins, so technically he is the GOAT :cool:

Every 'eveidence' or result you provide will be shot down on this pathetic forum, so no need bother.

So pathetic, yet you insist on not only posting here, but vainly trying to hide your identity with a new user name Talps. :D
 
Tell me why the "more of the same" is in error, which you continue to fail to do.

I completely disagree with what you do say. Being a sports fan is ridiculous enough considered objectively, making all sport conditional on the hypothetical as you propose makes it completely meaningless.

I am happy to credit all title winners with their titles, except possibly that lower class one which Loris Capirossi won by cheating. I would certainly have enjoyed Stoner winning more titles, but am happy he won the titles he won and to have watched him ride so spectacularly and win all those races he won. I am amenable to the notion that some title wins are against the odds and particularly well deserved, in which category I might include KRJR's win for Suzuki, Hayden's title, Stoner's winning of Ducati's only title, and perhaps Rossi's initial Yamaha title and Lorenzo's 2012 title. I guess winning as a rookie as KRSR and MM did is exceptional as well.

Not necessarily in error, but rather we've been going in circles regarding the matter and obviously neither will change their mind.

What do you mean by hypotheticals? I see a season play out and make my own conclusions of the riders for the whole season, sometimes they go hand in hand with the results and most of the time I've considered the champion also the best rider of the season, since I started watching around 2002 there's only been 3 exceptions to this, 2006, 2013 and 2015. Again, this is motorsport, the quality of machinery matters, technical issues matter, getting taken out without your own fault and with you having no chance of avoiding it matter. It's not a hypothetical to me to say Rossi was better than Hayden in 2006, it's reality.

Agree with your last paragraph, as a whole every championship is earned except those that are earned against the rules and wouldn't be won without that. Such as possibly Capirossi, possibly whatever Marquez did is called if I was right or if it was proven the whole sport actually was rigged for Rossi etc etc.
 
I'm not arguing. It is a documented fact that any time criticism of Rossi is posted you respond with "But"..making any excuse for Rossi. Michael M did a direct comparison of Stoner Vs Rossi on factory machines (2007-2011) and in those 5 seasons Stoner won more races, the same number of titles and most importantly, twenty something more wins on the Ducati than Rossi.

You respond by saying "that is a poor comparison"...only because it shows your boy Rossi in poor light. Hence the troll.

I'm sorry but how is it not a poor comparison to purely look at statistics, when in none of those 5 seasons did the riders have even remotely the same equipment? If one wants to only look at statistics, clearly the info gotten out of that is more valuable when comparing Lorenzo and Rossi in 2013-2016 than Stoner and Rossi in 2007-2011, right?

The direct statistical comparison of Stoner and Rossis Ducati times is also imperfect IMO considering the strength of the Ducati compared to the field had drastically changed from end of 2010 to start of 2011 alone (due to Honda becoming even more dominant from when it became the best bike in the middle-end of 2010 when Dani had his winning streak) and putting out 4 (!) factory bikes. Only worse argument is that Rossi failed to win a race on a bike Stoner won the title with as if the landscape of the sport hadn't completely change since 2007. Or is the argument that Stoner would've won 11-12 races in 2011-12 with the Ducati (the season average of 23 wins the 4 years he was there)?

Don't get me wrong, Rossi did struggle those 2 years and if you switched their positions Stoner would probably win about 2 races overall and probably average around 40-50 points more per season. Rossi was clearly the fastest Ducati rider those years though and Hayden didn't do horribly in 2010 against Stoner pace or points wise, so this notion that Stoner on a Ducati would've been a major championship contender in 2011 and 2012 is absurd to me.
 
Not necessarily in error, but rather we've been going in circles regarding the matter and obviously neither will change their mind.

What do you mean by hypotheticals? I see a season play out and make my own conclusions of the riders for the whole season, sometimes they go hand in hand with the results and most of the time I've considered the champion also the best rider of the season, since I started watching around 2002 there's only been 3 exceptions to this, 2006, 2013 and 2015. Again, this is motorsport, the quality of machinery matters, technical issues matter, getting taken out without your own fault and with you having no chance of avoiding it matter. It's not a hypothetical to me to say Rossi was better than Hayden in 2006, it's reality.

Agree with your last paragraph, as a whole every championship is earned except those that are earned against the rules and wouldn't be won without that. Such as possibly Capirossi, possibly whatever Marquez did is called if I was right or if it was proven the whole sport actually was rigged for Rossi etc etc.
There is your problem. Those you oppose on here have a rather more long term perspective on the sport, which I started to follow in earnest in about 1986, and several on here have followed for much longer.

All riders can only beat the competition which turns up on the grid to race them, including Rossi against Gibernau and Biaggi, whether or not his current competitors are better than they were. My default position is to credit all world champions unless they cheated, which almost no-one has ever really done, and you have presented absolutely no evidence that MM cheated or that Rossi was good/fast enough to achieve better results in the last 3 races of 2015 than he did. Not content with all the well deserved success Rossi has had, you seek like many of your ilk to also award him titles he didn't win and to find explanations and excuses for titles he didn't win, but for him exclusively, and don't appear to have any insight into what you are doing and why posters on here take exception to what you post, which I would classify as far less than 95 percent argument, but rather in excess of 95 percent of declamation of your opinions as established fact without providing any evidence or arguments to back them.
 
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What problem? You said pretty much the same thing I did except of course disagree about the end of 2015, hence my pick for the best rider of 2015.

"you seek like many of your ilk" it really does seem that the history of discussing MotoGP since 2007 has gotten you to this state where arguing with you any things Rossi is almost pointless. The continuous attack of me as a poster rather than the point confirms this.

"to also award him titles he didn't win and to find rxplanations and excuses for titles he didn't win"

And you know, Lorenzo, one of my least favourite riders on the grid at the moment.

Can you answer, do you think Hayden was a better motorcycle racer than Rossi in 2006?
 
What problem? You said pretty much the same thing I did except of course disagree about the end of 2015, hence my pick for the best rider of 2015.

"you seek like many of your ilk" it really does seem that the history of discussing MotoGP since 2007 has gotten you to this state where arguing with you any things Rossi is almost pointless. The continuous attack of me as a poster rather than the point confirms this.

"to also award him titles he didn't win and to find rxplanations and excuses for titles he didn't win"

And you know, Lorenzo, one of my least favourite riders on the grid at the moment.

Can you answer, do you think Hayden was a better motorcycle racer than Rossi in 2006?
The problem I referred to is a lack of perspective on the sport, including that there was a time before the soccer hooligan mentality now prevalent among Rossi fans, a lack of recognition that there have been other all time great riders previously, and that injuries have always been part of the sport (they were actually much more prevalent back when the bikes were really vicious at the peak of the 500 era) with avoidance of them always part of winning titles.

And yes, Nicky Hayden was the better rider, in 2006 alone. He scored the most points over the series of races, overcame any equipment problems he had of his own, overcame being ridiculously taken out by his team-mate when he had a comfortable lead, and didn't crash out of the last race when in a position to win the title. What more do you suggest he should have done?

As I have said, you don't seem to get this thing that the rider who greets the chequered flag first wins the race, and the rider who has the most points at the end of the season wins the championship. This has always been how races and championships are decided, and I am sure both Valentino Rossi and Nicky Hayden were aware of the conditions under which the title would be decided at the start of the season. Consistency and pace are both required to win a championship.

I also appear to have misjudged you. Saying that I am impossible to debate about matters Rossi can only be either ironic or a recognition that you are incapable of such debate.

And most of all like many Rossi fans you seem to consider yourself indivisible from him, and to consider criticism of him or disagreement with you about him to be personal insults. I have offered you little in the way of argumentum ad hominem other than some exasperation that you are not prepared to answer the arguments pf others other than by declamation of what you perceive as proven truth. You have still offered nothing in the way of the evidence you claim proves MM's conspiracy/plot during the last 3 traces of the 2015 season for instance. Riders can be faster in some races than others, and at certain times in races than others, and can also elect to ride tactically if they wish, as Dani Pedrosa demonstrated today, and as we have been telling you and others he previously demonstrated at Sepang 2015.
 
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