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Rossi: "I paid too much for last year"

If you change the names you have given a valid explanation for why Valentino left for Ducati in 2011, and what his outlook was for 2011 and 2012 had he stayed at Yamaha. Imo Jorge left because things were so poisonous for him at Yamaha that it was intolerable for him to stay.

Just a personal opinion, but many things went right for Valentino to be in the hunt last year, not that this would have made a championship unworthy had he continued to be best in the prevailing conditions. Neither he nor Jorge challenged MM in 2014.

Jorge needs things to go right to challenge MM as well, but on suitable tyres in conditions which suit those tyres, which are the most common conditions, can challenge MM for raw pace. Jorge is also rather closer to being 25 than Valentino is, as I have said.

If they picked Valentino for commercial value that is chickenshit, again imo, and something concerning which Honda for all their faults have more backbone. If Jorge really is hopeless at sorting bikes and Valentino vastly exceeds him in this regard, something I have considered, then sure that would be a valid reason for the choice that was made.
 
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If you change the names you have given a valid explanation for why Valentino left for Ducati in 2011, and what his outlook was for 2011 and 2012 had he stayed at Yamaha.
Similar conditions yes. Rossi was the No.1 rider and unwilling to accept parity with Lorenzo. Lorenzo had No.1 status at Yamaha in 2013 while he now has parity with Rossi in terms of development control.

Imo Jorge left because things were so poisonous for him at Yamaha that it was intolerable for him to stay.
Well they cancelled his victory party in response to him publicly voicing an opinion that went against his team's interests over an issue that didn't directly involve him (although given Rossi's absurd conspiracy theories, one sympathizes with his general sentiments).

But a cancelled celebration aside, I haven't heard anything that would lead me to conclude that the environment in the paddock right now is unbearably poisonous.

Well.. maybe we'll hear Lorenzo be more specific about his grievances after his contract with Yamaha formally lapses in Dec.

Just a personal opinion, but many things went right for Valentino to be in the hunt last year, not that this would have made a championship unworthy had he continued to be best in the prevailing conditions. Neither he nor Jorge challenged MM in 2014.
The biggest thing as I see it was Marc Marquez not respecting the limits of equipment. But then he's in a different team. Rossi & Lorenzo were on a more or less even footing last season. Same in 2014.

Jorge is also rather closer to being 25 than Valentino is, as I have said.
True. On the other hand, they have a 21 year old Vinales coming in to take Lorenzo's place. He should be quite seasoned by the time Rossi retires (2020 my guess), and will be able to play the veteran foil to some new youngster.

If they picked Valentino for commercial value that is chickenshit, again imo, and something concerning which Honda for all their faults have more backbone.
They haven't really 'picked' him as I see it. They gave him an even say in the most critical issue i.e bike development.

And the commercial value he provides is over and above his race results which are comparable to Lorenzo's.

If Jorge really is hopeless at sorting bikes and Valentino vastly exceeds him in this regard, something I have considered, then sure that would be a valid reason for the choice that was made.
Lorenzo doesn't strike me as an individual who's 'hopeless' at anything. Still.. the M1's performance has been on an upswing since Rossi returned. Then again, his results at Ducati were dismal (perhaps if... Gigi Dall'Igna was heading Ducati it would have been more receptive to reform?). Hard to say. Maybe Lin Jarvis can be persuaded to write an autobiography when he retires.
 
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The M1's performance improvement against the Honda is well documented as being down to one thing, the clutchless changing gearbox. Rossi sure as hell didn't design that. The Yamaha was already a beautifully handling bike with a fantastic engine, the gearbox allowed the bike to accelerate better and change gear without upsetting handling whilst leaned over, previously its weak points against the Honda. I think Lorenzo also stated it helped a little under braking too for what it's worth.
 
The M1's performance improvement against the Honda is well documented as being down to one thing, the clutchless changing gearbox. Rossi sure as hell didn't design that. The Yamaha was already a beautifully handling bike with a fantastic engine, the gearbox allowed the bike to accelerate better and change gear without upsetting handling whilst leaned over, previously its weak points against the Honda. I think Lorenzo also stated it helped a little under braking too for what it's worth.
Fair enough.
 
Similar conditions yes. Rossi was the No.1 rider and unwilling to accept parity with Lorenzo. Lorenzo had No.1 status at Yamaha in 2013 while he now has parity with Rossi in terms of development control.


Well they cancelled his victory party in response to him publicly voicing an opinion that went against his team's interests over an issue that didn't directly involve him (although given Rossi's absurd conspiracy theories, one sympathizes with his general sentiments).

But a cancelled celebration aside, I haven't heard anything that would lead me to conclude that the environment in the paddock right now is unbearably poisonous.

Well.. maybe we'll hear Lorenzo be more specific about his grievances after his contract with Yamaha formally lapses in Dec.


The biggest thing as I see it was Marc Marquez not respecting the limits of equipment. But then he's in a different team. Rossi & Lorenzo were on a more or less even footing last season. Same in 2014.


True. On the other hand, they have a 21 year old Vinales coming in to take Lorenzo's place. He should be quite seasoned by the time Rossi retires (2020 my guess), and will be able to play the veteran foil to some new youngster.


They haven't really 'picked' him as I see it. They gave him an even say in the most critical issue i.e bike development.

And the commercial value he provides is over and above his race results which are comparable to Lorenzo's.


Lorenzo doesn't strike me as an individual who's 'hopeless' at anything. Still.. the M1's performance has been on an upswing since Rossi returned. Then again, his results at Ducati were dismal (perhaps if... Gigi Dall'Igna was heading Ducati it would have been more receptive to reform?). Hard to say. Maybe Lin Jarvis can be persuaded to write an autobiography when he retires.
All valid points. A few things though.

If all was the same going forward for 2017 as it was going to be going forward for 2011, why has it now become unacceptable for Lorenzo despite him saying after winning his 3rd title that he wanted to be a Yamaha icon like the other riders who had won 3 titles for them, namely KRJR, Lawson and Rainey, and that he understood that Yamaha preferred Rossi because he sold more bikes? He also pretty much made a decision to diminish his chances of the 2016 title as defending world champion, whereas Rossi had already lost the title in 2010 due to injuries.

Rossi appealing against the penalty was relevant to Jorge, in that Rossi gained either 3 or 16 points on him depending on one's point of view in a tight title battle and I understand there are specific provisions in the appeal process for co-respondents. So he likely had the right to do what he did and a valid interest, although I agree it was not the most politic thing for him to do in terms of Yamaha.

Rossi made the best of prevailing conditions in 2015, particularly an unusual number of wet races, and good luck and credit to him for that, but never showed the pace that allowed Lorenzo to dominate 4 successive dry races, and Jorge also had the pace at the end of the season when it counted, and did not falter under immense pressure. This year's results were not really available when decisions were made, but all other elements of any tyre conspiracy aside, are Yamaha really going to use their influence to push Michelin to produce a "Jorge" tyre when Jorge is leaving for Ducati?

Betting that Vinales will prove to be as good as Jorge, ie 3 premier class world championships, 4th most premier class wins ever, is also a fairly long odds bet, particularly at the time decisions were made.
 
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The M1's performance improvement against the Honda is well documented as being down to one thing, the clutchless changing gearbox. Rossi sure as hell didn't design that. The Yamaha was already a beautifully handling bike with a fantastic engine, the gearbox allowed the bike to accelerate better and change gear without upsetting handling whilst leaned over, previously its weak points against the Honda. I think Lorenzo also stated it helped a little under braking too for what it's worth.

2012 Yamaha was no bad thing either.
 
All valid points. A few things though.

If all was the same going forward for 2017 as it was going to be going forward for 2011, why has it now become unacceptable for Lorenzo despite him saying after winning his 3rd title that he wanted to be a Yamaha icon like the other riders who had won 3 titles for them, namely KRJR, Lawson and Rainey, and that he understood that Yamaha preferred Rossi because he sold more bikes? He also pretty much made a decision to diminish his chances of the 2016 title as defending world champion, whereas Rossi had already lost the title in 2010 due to injuries.
You mean why is he leaving now despite having the opportunity to do so all along? Could be lots of reasons -

1. Loss of a No. 1 status. Even after Rossi returned (to help sell bikes among other things) Lorenzo was still top dog in the Yamaha paddock. Not anymore and that's not an easy thing to let go off after you've had it (as Rossi can probably testify to).

2. Perceived lack of loyalty from Yamaha. There's a fair argument to be made that the Yamaha management has treated him as an employee rather than a member of a family. After all, it was Rossi who jumped ship from Honda to Yamaha then to Ducati and then back to Yamaha. In contrast, Lorenzo has been a Yamaha man throughout. It would be natural to resent Rossi being treated with the same familiarity.

3. A powerful position at Ducati. Not just a lead role in development but influence in management decisions and the like. (Its widely rumored that it was ultimately Lorenzo's preference that caused Ducati to go with Dovizioso over Iannone.)

4. Spec tires, spec electronics. Illustrates Dorna's efforts to make the sport more competitive, improving the prospects of other teams. Prospects for a non-Honda/Yamaha team are brighter than ever before.

5. Money. He's not going to retire like most people with a pension at 62. Sure he's making millions already but whatever he makes will need to last him the rest of his life. He's got a (relatively) narrow window in which he can continue to remain competitive at the highest level. And Ducati are believed to have offered him a staggering sum. (More than what Rossi is making at Yamaha I believe, though we're in the realm of base rumor here.)


Rossi appealing against the penalty was relevant to Jorge, in that Rossi gained either 3 or 16 points on him depending on one's point of view in a tight title battle and I understand there are specific provisions in the appeal process for co-respondents. So he likely had the right to do what he did and a valid interest, although I agree it was not the most politic thing for him to do in terms of Yamaha.
Well.. yes. But keep in the mind, its not just the riders who're affected by these decisions. They're competing as a team and the crew's role is every bit as important as the rider's. Getting a rider DQed also means there's an entire section of hardworking people - engineers, mechanics, admin staff, Uccios - that are reduced to watching the race from the sidelines.


Rossi made the best of prevailing conditions in 2015, particularly an unusual number of wet races, and good luck and credit to him for that, but never showed the pace that allowed Lorenzo to dominate 4 successive dry races, and Jorge also had the pace at the end of the season when it counted, and did not falter under immense pressure.
Thing is, it always counted. A rider's performance in MotoGP is the sum of his ability in a diverse set of conditions (both technical and environmental). Consistency matters just as much as pace. And in the final scheme of things Rossi was within spitting distance of Lorenzo in 2015, and comfortably ahead in 2014.

Purely on riding ability, setting aside other factors, Yamaha cannot really be faulted for treating two at par.

This year's results were not really available when decisions were made, but all other elements of any tyre conspiracy aside, are Yamaha really going to use their influence to push Michelin to produce a "Jorge" tyre when Jorge is leaving for Ducati?

Betting that Vinales will prove to be as good as Jorge, ie 3 premier class world championships, 4th most premier class wins ever, is also a fairly long odds bet, particularly at the time decisions were made.
Sure Vinales was a longer shot early in the season while Lorenzo is a proven race winner (though given how hard Suzuki fought to retain him, Vinales' potential was well known.) But this just goes to support the argument that far from forcing him out, Yamaha did try to retain Lorenzo; of course it was not possible for them to be as generous as Ducati.
 
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Well.. yes. But keep in the mind, its not just the riders who're affected by these decisions. They're competing as a team and the crew's role is every bit as important as the rider's. Getting a rider DQed also means there's an entire section of hardworking people - engineers, mechanics, admin staff, Uccios - that are reduced to watching the race from the sidelines.

Which makes Rossi's actions last year even more disrespectful. He lost his mind and caused Marquez to crash, negating all the hard work his team do every day to get his bike on track an competitive.

In the case of Marquez in PI 2013, it was a team agreement and oversight which caused him to be black flagged, so they were all to blame.

Rossi is to blame had he got DQ'd from that race last yr, so using his support crew's disappointment as an excuse for RD to not penalise him during the race is irrelevant.
 
Eh? How is Marquez relevant here?

The issue here pertains to the Yamaha management taking a dim view of Lorenzo's unsolicited offer to testify in an inquiry over an incident that did not involve him, intending to DQ Yamaha's own people.
 
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The reason Lorenzo got involved in the cas situation was nothing to do with whether/where Rossi got on the grid at Valencia. The cas decision had the capacity to run on into the closed season and award the title to Rossi even if Jorge won it on track.
Lorenzo was informed by and urged by his lawyers that he had to register as an interested party if he was required to oppose this.
Naturally the guy didn't want to lose the title to a court case, so he simply followed his lawyers advice.
He wasn't registering to oppose Rossi at all, as reported by some gutter press, he was simply following a legal procedure.
Thankfully Rossi withdrew his appeal after the race, so nothing else happened anyway.
Unfortunately some of the minions didn't understand this and continue to this day to accuse Lorenzo of appealing against Rossi.
 
Eh? How is Marquez relevant here?

The issue here pertains to the Yamaha management taking a dim view of Lorenzo's unsolicited offer to testify in an inquiry over an incident that did not involve him, intending to DQ Yamaha's own people.
A couple of point here, you mentioned Yamaha stood to be affected in the constructor points. Not really, Jlo came 2nd, and the points are only awarded to the top team finisher.

Second, Lorenzo did have an interest, not the least being vested in track safety for which he is subjected to if this task to enforce it do not do their job.

Third, as a fellow competitor he had the 'right' (the rules allowed) to submit as a third party with standing. That is, he is a stake holder.

You could make the case Yamaha should have been pissed off at Rossi for, 1. Getting them into this mess. 2. Taking actions antithetical to competition which reflect poorly upon the supposed integrity of their brand.

The fact they didn't tells us a lot.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.
 
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The reason Lorenzo got involved in the cas situation was nothing to do with whether/where Rossi got on the grid at Valencia. The cas decision had the capacity to run on into the closed season and award the title to Rossi even if Jorge won it on track.
Lorenzo was informed by and urged by his lawyers that he had to register as an interested party if he was required to oppose this.
Naturally the guy didn't want to lose the title to a court case, so he simply followed his lawyers advice.
He wasn't registering to oppose Rossi at all, as reported by some gutter press, he was simply following a legal procedure.
Thankfully Rossi withdrew his appeal after the race, so nothing else happened anyway.
Unfortunately some of the minions didn't understand this and continue to this day to accuse Lorenzo of appealing against Rossi.

I don't think a court would have judged to strip Lorenzo of the title he fairly won , however had Rossi succeeded in his appeal to get the penalty deferred I do think it could have been rescinded in Jorge's favour, messy either way, disappointed as I was it ended right.
 
The reason Lorenzo got involved in the cas situation was nothing to do with whether/where Rossi got on the grid at Valencia. The cas decision had the capacity to run on into the closed season and award the title to Rossi even if Jorge won it on track.
Okay. That was something I didn't know.

Still Yamaha team bosses were displeased with Lorenzo's calls for DQ to be issued. Minor issue? Sure. But I'd argue a cancelled party is an equally mild outcome.
 
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Okay. That was something I didn't know.

Still Yamaha team bosses were displeased with Lorenzo's calls for DQ to be issued. Minor issue? Sure. But I'd argue a cancelled party is an equally mild outcome as well.

Did you seriously not think Rossi shouldn't have been black flagged?

Edit to add: Lorenzo rightly felt that Rossi was getting a chance to win the title that he shouldn't have had. He gained 3 points illegally and was allowed to keep his 16 points towards the championship when anyone can clearly see that he had no right to do so regardless of who he is or his championship standing. If it had been the other way around Rossi would still be going on about how it was unfair and threatening to quit.
 
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A couple of point here, you mentioned Yamaha stood to be affected in the constructor points. Not really, Jlo came 2nd, and the points are only awarded to the top team finisher.
I don't think I did. The constructor championship was already in the bag. After the PI race I think.

Second, Lorenzo did have an interest, not the least being vested in track safety for which he is subjected to if this task to enforce it do not do their job.

Third, as a fellow competitor he had the 'right' (the rules allowed) to submit as a third party with standing. That is, he is a stake holder.
I'm not disputing his right to be heard or enter the SAC at all.

You could make the case Yamaha should have been pissed off at Rossi for, 1. Getting them into this mess. 2. Taking actions antithetical to competition which reflect poorly upon the supposed integrity of their brand.

The fact they didn't tells us a lot.
I believe they cancelled their celebration before the Valencia race. So had Lorenzo crashed out with Rossi ending up as champion, there still wouldn't been any official post-season celebrations.
 
Did you seriously not think Rossi shouldn't have been black flagged?

Edit to add: Lorenzo rightly felt that Rossi was getting a chance to win the title that he shouldn't have had. He gained 3 points illegally and was allowed to keep his 16 points towards the championship when anyone can clearly see that he had no right to do so regardless of who he is or his championship standing. If it had been the other way around Rossi would still be going on about how it was unfair and threatening to quit.
I'm saying Yamaha was displeased by that Lorenzo's statements, and that shouldn't have come as a surprise to Lorenzo. Yamaha's interests need not coincide with that of its riders.

Then again, its just a party so he's hardly been victimized by Yamaha.
 
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I'm saying Yamaha was displeased by that Lorenzo's statements, and that shouldn't have come as a surprise to Lorenzo. Yamaha's interests need not coincide with that of its riders.

Then again, its just a party so he's hardly been victimized by Yamaha.



You keep making the same points about Lorenzo's statements. Do you have as good a source as the cas statement one or are the all minion products.
Loads of crap was said of Lorenzo, Neil Hodgson famously claimed "Lorenzo's upstairs going crazy and punching the walls" upstairs at Sepang. This was live after the race on BT sport.
Truth came out Lorenzo was nowhere near there, he was in a team debrief.
Not one journalist had the stones to report this and make an apology, especially Hodgson, a card carrying minion member.
Write what you know, not think on here buddy or it'll be dissected and yourself with it, jums an amateur butcher in his spare time [emoji1]
 
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Then again, its just a party so he's hardly been victimized by Yamaha.

How do you suppose Rossi and his fans would have reacted if Rossi won the title and the party is canceled?

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.
 

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