I thought he was refering to how much cash it cost him to have Mike Webb overlook his Sepang tantrum and let him race in Valencia. Maybe worth it for the championship, but paid him too much for second.
I thought he was refering to how much cash it cost him to have Mike Webb overlook his Sepang tantrum and let him race in Valencia. Maybe worth it for the championship, but paid him too much for second.
It must be a chore to purposefully avoid my point so many times.
Fine, you think Hayden was better in 2006, I disagree.
"As I have said, you don't seem to get this thing that the rider who greets the chequered flag first wins the race, and the rider who has the most points sat the end of the season wins the championship."
No, I'm perfectly aware of that. I am asserting that the person who wins the title is not automatically the best rider that season, something that should be obvious to everyone considering the rider is no the only variable in this sport. It's rarer than in F1 for example because the rider is a bigger part of equation, but it has happened.
So, by our logic the best rider always wins the title, meaning how good/great you are is directly represented by how many titles you have. Meaning the GOAT list in order is the list of championships won in order? Or does any other factor come into play here? Help me out, I'm trying to figure out your genius.
I'm sure Rossi and Hayden knew the rules of the series before 2006.
Yes I do consider the rider who wins the championship each year to be the best rider that year.
Ok, and what about the GOAT formula, is it like I suggested or are some titles more valuable than others, era strength maybe?
I don't think there can really be a GOAT, it is too difficult to compare across eras.
If you want to to spin the breeze about the best riders, obviously Rossi is in the conversation, and ahead of Agostini imo despite Ago's great statistics, although Ago's 8th title in his mid 30s for Yamaha when the Japanese manufacturers returned would seem to have been particularly meritorious. Hailwood is considered by many to be incomparable but I am not in a position to have an informed opinion. Of the riders I have actually followed during their careers I would also rate Eddie Lawson very highly.
Rossi is obviously an ATG rider I think what his problem is that he has a losing record against other great riders he has raced. And while he is 37 now and that can't be held against him there is no evidence to suggest that at 35 or 36 a modern day athlete in a sport like motorcycle racing that he is far past it if at all.
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You are looking at the statistics that conveniently shed your god in a good light that is why. Apart from 2014, Lorenzo has beaten Rossi on the same every season since 2010. Discounting the 2 Ducati years, that's 3 vs 1 or 5 vs 1 if you include them. So the statistics show Lorenzo has outperformed Rossi over the last 6 years.
Huh?? The 2011 bike was an evolution of the 2010 bike. The main reason for the change in competitiveness change from Ducati to Honda remarkably coincided with Stoner switching said marques, is that a coincidence? No, and apart from Stoner, none of the other factory Honda riders beat Lorenzo on the Yamaha that season, so your argument that the Honda suddenly made leaps in performance and the Ducati took a sudden downturn is weak at best.
I think Pedrosa won a couple of races, one of which was the race after Stoner got taken out by Rossi at Jerez, when he was nearly taken out by Simoncelli early in the first lap and rode conservatively.
No way was either the 2010 or 2011 bike championship capable, although Rossi thought exactly that before he sat on a Ducati, believing the problem was Stoner and not the bike. Stoner won 3 races though, at least 2 of them at the end of the season, and was second in the last race, which was the bike Rossi inherited and on which he couldn't get within 1.5 seconds of Stoner's best time of the weekend 2 days later at the post-season test at the same time Stoner was immediately faster than Pedrosa on the Honda.
Both VR and JB were widely quoted as being mystified by how Stoner got the thing to go so fast, Rossi at one stage saying, presumably with access to telemetry, that Stoner had to be crazy to have ridden it as he did.
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2010 - Lorenzo
3-1 the season isn't over yet and Lorenzo was in a similar postion last year and still closed the gap.
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Tyres were different manufacturers in Yamaha team. A fair comparison cannot be obtained as the others had prior experience on the Bridgestones.
Most people can count. Rossi has the most titles, although Lorenzo's 5 are hardly insignificant, and Lorenzo won't win 7 premier class titles.
This was not the issue at all, however. The discussion started (I have some knowledge of this because I started it) over how Yamaha could favour a 37 year old however great in his prime who last won a title in 2009, over the defending world champion in his prime years who has won three of the last 6 titles.
I believe some guy called Agostini won 8 premierclass titles, and 15 odd titles in total, yet no-one is looking to sign him. I jest obviously, because Rossi is riding at a higher level than anyone his age ever has or possibly ever will, imo, but I can't see how decisions can be made now on the basis of how good he was when he was 27, and him managing to force Jorge out of Yamaha was the final straw for me in terms of my assessment of him as using his off-track power and influence as a weapon against his rivals.
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Answered for me by p4p1. You cannot count 2016 as the season isn't over yet. Lorenzo also beat Rossi in 2015 after the 2nd (or arguably 1st) biggest choke job of his career, the other being Valencia 2006.
Fair enough. That rules out 2008. 2009 though was on spec tires.
Hmm.. a little less convinced by that argument.
If we're factoring in experience then perhaps we ought to discount 2008 & 2013 entirely. The former because it was Lorenzo's first year in the premier class and the latter because Rossi needed a breather to adapt to the Yamaha after spending two years in different world.
No doubt Rossi has a career record Lorenzo won't approach, and was likely better when he was 25 than Lorenzo was when he was 25. He was definitely better than Lorenzo in 2009 imo, although Lorenzo ran him falrly close, likely hadn't reached his peak, and probably didn't have much control over the direction of development of the bike.
Lorenzo is rather closer to being 25 now than Rossi is, however, and the last 6 years are more relevant i would have thought if a choice is being made by Yamaha between the two of them going forward, and a choice between them which is pretty much what happened. I see it as a continuation of, and Rossi succeeding with and being rewarded for, his late season 2015 malarkey.
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Well from Yamaha's perspective, they could either go by results or by commercial value.
Rossi's massive fanbase and star power are substantial enough to provide him additional value over and above his race results.
However, if we go purely by racing results, Lorenzo finished the 2014 season 32 pts behind Rossi and the 2015 season just 5 pts ahead (330 to 325).
Sure he (deservedly) got the title and bragging rights but for all intents and purposes they were nearly tied. Within the 'margin of luck' (if I may borrow & mangle 'margin of error' from statistics).
So putting both factors together and one can see why Yamaha might value Rossi more.
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When Rossi returned to Yamaha in 2013 he was unequivocally told that Lorenzo was their No.1 rider and would lead development. Two years on Rossi's performance had earned him the right to be treated at equivalence.
And in 2016, Yamaha offered both riders contract renewals together. Rossi of course signed up immediately but when Lorenzo desisted, Yamaha offered him more time to make up his mind.
Point is, Lorenzo could have stayed at Yamaha and he would have been a title contender on it in 2017 & 2018. He chose to leave, perhaps because he felt a different manufacturer would value him more while still providing him with a competitive ride.
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And just as DORNA, Yamaha have placed all their eggs into a basket from which they may never be able to extract the egg without a significant financial cost and/or burden.
Rossi is far from stupid when it comes to business and IMO there is little doubt that he will licence his likeness and brand in such a way that any use of himself will result in financial reward to himself. Likewise, I would not trust Rossi to necessarily stay aligned to Yamaha in years ahead either as he knows his worth and knows that the Rossi brand transcends the manufacturer and in many ways the sport, thus he is in a more powerful situation than are all other riders and some manufacturers.
Nobody cares who finishes second in the world championships as there is no marketing or benefit to finishing second when you are on a factory bike. Sure some may argue that if you beat your team mate thence it gives you a leg up, but generally I would say BS when that team mate is the golden goose (that also applies to Marquez as I do not see Pedrosa getting benefit from HRC over Marquez)
The decision was made commercially thus the results have nought to do with it and it is all about marketing and the financial benefit of having the sports most popular rider in your team and colours.
What Rossi was told and what happened could well be two totally different things
My opinion only but I do suspect that in 2013 Rossi started as number 2 to remove the expectation and pressures that would come with 'the return of the prodigal son', as after all, his Ducati years had started to raise questions and Yamaha did not want to go all out pushing him lest he fail and by extension, they fail him.
By late 2013 as it was evident that the old guy had lost nothing, he started to assert the power in the garage (again, this is due to the power he comes with because of his marketability and the power that is Jeremy Burgess) and I suspect that by season start 2014 he was easily on equal terms and personally.
I for one would not be surprised were he the one most listened to out of the team mates as afterall, he was allowed to sack his team engineer and rebuild the team he wanted/demanded despite the impeccable record of that team lead (admittedly there did seem to be a falling out and JB was happy to leave to be with his wife).
By 2016 there is little doubt to me that whilst Yamaha publically claim that both are on equal footing, the power is more on one side of the garage to the other which again was somewhat evident by the handling of season's end 2015.
Yes it may be true that contracts were offered at the same time, but in a savvy business world of dog eat dog, you can easily state that contracts were offered whilst at the same time making a resigning unpalatable to one (or both) knowing that if they go public they breach contract whilst knowing that in the longer run, public mutterings will come across as whinging. Yamaha were (IMO) brilliantly tough in the way that they handled the situation knowing the feelings of one of those involved and his concerns regarding lack of support from 2015
I do think it is all about Lorenzo feeling valued as he was shown a lack of support in the latter stages of 2015 and felt that he deserved better given his 3 from 6 championships although I am also not naive enough to believe that money may not have swayed him either.
Either way Yamaha's eggs are again in the one basket and as many have said it will be interesting to see the dichotomy of the team if/when Vinales starts to get competitive and then beat Rossi.
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