rd2, jerez... race rants........SPOILERS

TP70 said:

Thanks Rog it is great to win something especially in such illustrious company as here.



I wouldn't say he carved his way through the field. He passed 4 bikes I think and most of them at the end of the straight (2 Ducati's who were just trying to get home,1 Yamaha who was just trying to bag some points and then Dani who was over riding his wayward Honda). I was not referring to any of the passes besides Dani where he had several rushed attempts which could have easily taken both down.



As far as him proving himself, well in my opinion he has not. I reckon you could stick Randy on that bike and he would be up there and we would be sing his praises. Jorge has lucked onto the best bike on the grid. Ok he won a couple of 250 champs against average competition and his timing was impeccable. Just look at the latest 2 x 250 WC's who are languishing on crap satellite bikes. Do you think either of them will get a factory Yamaha next year on the performances they are turning in on a satellite bike? If the rookie rule existed when Lorenzo stepped up then most likely this conversation would not be taking place. Don't get me wrong I reckon he is a great rider but I don't think he is the next coming of the GOAT.



As far as racing injured goes well last time I checked there are no special points awarded for that. I will give him points though for being so inaccurate with his throttle that he can still launch him self into space on such heavily traction controlled bikes. No one else has been able to achieve that.

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So Lorenzo has not proved himself at all or earned any of your respect. Fair enough where all entitled to our opinions. You may find this chart interesting that a member posted. It shows who is on the up and who isn't. .

http://www.powerslide.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=12397&view=findpost&p=236605



And as for not 'earning special points' point for riding injured your wrong. He has, there called respect point as countless members here and around the world have proved this with the kudos they give him. He raced with 2 busted ankle's and still finished on the podium. How the .... can you not respect that ? Yet you respect a rider who raced when he puked his cheese sandwich up while racing.



Im not even going to bother arguing with you about Lorenzo's race craft and how why where he passed his opponents. End of the day his strategy worked because he won and im nor so sure your qualified to judge him.

Tom said:

Besides picking appart the details, do you catch my drift? i guess its about stature and reputation. Some riders are considered steady but not necessarily the fastest, some are considered rapid but a liability, some we say are invinvible on their day but unspectacular when things aren't just right, some are 'wet weather guys', etc. Now you know as well as anyone that i don't thats significant when it comes to results, who cares if you are steady, or a wet specialist or one track wonder. A win is a win a title is a title and they all deserve their credit. I guess i'm just wondering what kind of rider Stoner is gonna be this year, it seems poorly recieved around here, i'm speculating because lets face it, thats fun.

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Well honestly, I'm not keen on this ongoing trend to question Stoner's capacity to contend. This idea that his "reputation" is suspect is a 'Stoner detractor' thing created to vilify & disparage him. When I think of Stoner's "reputation", I think of a no-nonsense rider with uncanny speed who is already a world champ (and did it on a bike that for everybody else was unridable). I don't take you for somebody who has been suckered into questing his mental strength and rider ability to contend (that was until you questioned it here). He made a tiny mistake at Qatar (where he was fastest than anybody) and rode for points in Jerez (exactly what Rossi did), yet we must question his ability to contend? Just out of curiosity buddy, did you have similar questions about Rossi when he had that lapse in Indy crashing from the lead while Lorenzo was on his tail? I doubt it right? So why question Stoner now?



Btw, I saw the race again last night. Wow, Lorenzo is something special.

chopperman said:

And as for not 'earning special points' point for riding injured your wrong. He has, there called respect point as countless members here and around the world have proved this with the kudos they give him. He raced with 2 busted ankle's and still finished on the podium. How the .... can you not respect that ?

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You will recall, he rebusted at Laguna with that massive highside at turn 5, you were there. As I remember, it might have been your bad luck with that high five you infamously gave him. Regardless, dude raced again. That's respectable.



Plus, lets not forget, he just recently had a hand injury. I don't know about you, but when I bust a bone, I want more than a few weeks before I'm on a bike riding at 190mph. Lorenzo displayed at Jerez some of the best racecraft and patience I've seen from a rider who had to pass 4 "aliens" to win the race...on the last few laps no less.

Jumkie said:

You will recall, he rebusted at Laguna with that massive highside at turn 5, you were there. As I remember, it might have been your bad luck with that high five you infamously gave him.

Regardless, dude raced again. That's respectable.



Plus, lets not forget, he just recently had a hand injury. I don't know about you, but when I bust a bone, I want more than a few weeks before I'm on a bike riding at 190mph. Lorenzo displayed at Jerez some of the best racecraft and patience I've seen from a rider who had to pass 4 "aliens" to win the race...on the last few laps no less.

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Spot on mate but this is how TP70 saw it

TP70, on 02 May 2010 - 11:17 PM, said:

I agree. Lorenzo' first few attempts at passing Dani were poor and to me showed poor race craft and no strategy to set it up. I do respect his ride though and will one day respect the rider when and if he can do it on a bike that is not the class of the field.

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Jumkie said:

Well honestly, I'm not keen on this ongoing trend to question Stoner's capacity to contend. This idea that his "reputation" is suspect is a 'Stoner detractor' thing created to vilify & disparage him.



I don't take you for somebody who has been suckered into questing his mental strength and rider ability to contend



did you have similar questions about Rossi when he had that lapse in Indy crashing from the lead while Lorenzo was on his tail? I doubt it right? So why question Stoner now?

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Well i'm sorry if you are fed up of people trying to put Stoner down, i would not include myself as one of those people because i am very much an admirer, and i certainly buy into all this cracking under pressure talk. I've been wondering all winter if Dani would perhaps be demoted to best of the rest, even more so than with Stoner we are left wondering, because his Jerez ride was brilliant. Of course i had my doubts about Rossi when he made numerous uncharicteristic errors last year, but not nearly to the same extent as the others when their performance varies , i'm sure you don't need help working out why.

You just can`t be the Ace at every circuit..........good,but not the Ace.

Final times of the Monday post-race tests at Jerez:



01. Dani Pedrosa (SPA) Repsol Honda Team 1′39.425

02. Valentino Rossi (ITA) Fiat Yamaha Team 1′39.480

03. Jorge Lorenzo (SPA) Fiat Yamaha Team 1′39.506

04. Randy de Puniet (FRA) LCR Honda MotoGP 1′39.609

05. Andrea Dovizioso (ITA) Repsol Honda Team 1′39.760

06. Casey Stoner (AUS) Ducati Marlboro Team 1′39.786

07. Nicky Hayden (USA) Ducati Marlboro Team 1′39.906

08. Ben Spies (USA) Monster Yamaha Tech 3 1′39.958

09. Loris Capirossi (ITA) Rizla Suzuki MotoGP 1′40.040

10. Colin Edwards (USA) Monster Yamaha Tech 3 1′40.042

11. Marco Melandri (ITA) San Carlo Honda Gresini 1′40.129

12. Marco Simoncelli (ITA) San Carlo Honda Gresini 1′40.370

13. Mika Kallio (FIN) Pramac Green Team 1′40.446

14. Alvaro Bautista (SPA) Rizla Suzuki MotoGP 1′40.463

15. Hiroshi Aoyama (JAP) Interwetten-Honda MotoGP 1′40.470

16. Aleix Espargaro (SPA) Pramac Green Team 1′40.686

17. Hector Barbera (SPA) Aspar Team 1′40.932

wow, top 12 within a sec.

chopperman said:

So Lorenzo has not proved himself at all or earned any of your respect. Fair enough where all entitled to our opinions. You may find this chart interesting that a member posted. It shows who is on the up and who isn't. .

http://www.powerslide.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=12397&view=findpost&p=236605



And as for not 'earning special points' point for riding injured your wrong. He has, there called respect point as countless members here and around the world have proved this with the kudos they give him. He raced with 2 busted ankle's and still finished on the podium. How the .... can you not respect that ? Yet you respect a rider who raced when he puked his cheese sandwich up while racing.



Im not even going to bother arguing with you about Lorenzo's race craft and how why where he passed his opponents. End of the day his strategy worked because he won and im nor so sure your qualified to judge him.

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I guess you can put me in the same basket then with all the people who show Stoner no respect after a World Championship won against the GOAT and almost as many race wins as the GOAT after 3 years of racing. Hang on that would put me standing squarely besides yourself in the basket with your throw away vomit comment. As far as qualifications to judge I may have missed something in regards to your MotoGP resume but several thousand posts on a MotoGP forum does not constitute a qualification.

i didnt see any problems with lorenzo's performance, in fact it was good racecraft... very good.. hanging in there and studying other rider's then making the move (even pedrosa was happy and gave lorenzo some kind of credit and enjoyed the battle)

if i remember correctly stoner made much more agressive passes at laguna and so did rossi so i cant see what the problem is with lorenzo TP70?



casey was a respectable 5th but gave no interview after the race, how do you expect people to show respect with this kind of attitude? even if some riders feel like they been shat on the still give an interview and get on with it, take nicky as a class example... hes had to take it on the chin for years not just 1 race but the guy still gives an interview and these sort of things make him so likeable....just take it on the chin and do your best next time your out racing.

TP70 said:

I guess you can put me in the same basket then with all the people who show Stoner no respect after a World Championship won against the GOAT and almost as many race wins as the GOAT after 3 years of racing. Hang on that would put me standing squarely besides yourself in the basket with your throw away vomit comment. As far as qualifications to judge I may have missed something in regards to your MotoGP resume but several thousand posts on a MotoGP forum does not constitute a qualification.

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Im not the one saying the race winners passes were poor and showed no strategy though am i. You are !

And it's typical of you to try to turn every thing intro a stoner fanboy bleat rather than address the points i made in answer to your negative Lorenzo points. It's ok though, i know you must be gutted that not only Lorenzo won but your hero was schooled by his team-mate

Jumkie said:

wow, top 12 within a sec.

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Those kind of times makes me hope against hope (in this 800 era) for lots of close racing this season.

Seeing Nicky up there in 3rd for such a long piece of the race had my little tosies all curled up. After

re-watching the race - I gotta say those last 4 laps were pretty hot. I really didn't think Lorenzo could

get past all of them in that short a time. That was some epic riding.

Keshav said:

Those kind of times makes me hope against hope (in this 800 era) for lots of close racing this season.

Seeing Nicky up there in 3rd for such a long piece of the race had my little tosies all curled up. After

re-watching the race - I gotta say those last 4 laps were pretty hot. I really didn't think Lorenzo could

get past all of them in that short a time. That was some epic riding.

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I thought rossi was keeping a pace where he conserved his fuel and engine and was waiting for dani's bike to get its handling problem once he had used enough fuel to lighten the bike. The problems he had been suffering prior to the race. Except this didn't happen and i thought there's no way he can catch dani now unless he makes a serious mistake, the gap just looked to big. Then lorenzo seemed to come from nowhere ,gaining over 2 secs in 3 lap's. How the hell he caught dani from way back when i thought the gap between rossi and dani was to big is just amazing imo.

Jumkie said:

Whats up LF? How u doing bro.



True, the M1 needed help, and though this topic has been debated heavily, i'm not convinced it was crap. It wasnt the "best" but it was a close 2nd best. We r not talking about them turning a Harley into the space shuttle (as most revisionist would hav us believe). Rossi/Burgess made the difference, i agree there.

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More like 3rd compa… Remember Ducati was 2nd best at 2003 in Constructors Championship:



Honda = 395, Ducati = 225 (yes Ducati), Yamaha = 175, etc.



http://resources.mot...pdf?v1_96143780



Also consider that Rossi / Burgess were not allowed to test / improve the Yamaha 04 untill January by Contract with HRC, remember?



Added: In fact, in the Teams Championship, the first Yamaha Team in 2003 was 5th… See the above PDF.



Repsol Honda = 487, Camel Pramac Pons Honda = 351, Ducati (yes Ducati) Marlboro Team = 305, Telefónica Movistar Honda = 299, and 5th Fortuna Yamaha Team = 188.



Does not seem like Second Best compa!

TP70 said:

I agree. Lorenzo' first few attempts at passing Dani were poor and to me showed poor race craft and no strategy to set it up. I do respect his ride though and will one day respect the rider when and if he can do it on a bike that is not the class of the field.



Funny how people are writing Stoner off. I suggest they will be eating their words soon enough just as those that did the same to Rossi had to do.

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I do read in my above quote that I did give respect for this particular ride.

jazkat said:

i didnt see any problems with lorenzo's performance, in fact it was good racecraft... very good.. hanging in there and studying other rider's then making the move (even pedrosa was happy and gave lorenzo some kind of credit and enjoyed the battle)

if i remember correctly stoner made much more agressive passes at laguna and so did rossi so i cant see what the problem is with lorenzo TP70?



casey was a respectable 5th but gave no interview after the race, how do you expect people to show respect with this kind of attitude? even if some riders feel like they been shat on the still give an interview and get on with it, take nicky as a class example... hes had to take it on the chin for years not just 1 race but the guy still gives an interview and these sort of things make him so likeable....just take it on the chin and do your best next time your out racing.

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I have never said his passes were aggressive I just thought that he got to the back of Pedro and tried to pass too quickly without really thinking where he was going to do it. Once he had a couple of failed attempts he lined him up properly and went straight by. I acknowledge there was only a lap and a bit to go and time was running out but he nearly took them both down rushing a pass that he was clearly going to make.



As far as after race interviews I have read 2. There is one on Kro's site and another on crash so I am unsure at what you are referring to here Jaz.



Rog, what fan boy bleat are you referring to? The one in response to your bopper vomit comment?

Let me push it a bit more compa, in 2003:



Constructor Championship: Honda = 1st. Ducati = 2nd. Yamaha = 3rd.

Teams Championship: Honda = 1st, 2nd & 4th. Ducati = 3rd. Yamaha = 5th.

Total Wins : Honda = 15. Ducati = 1. Yamaha = 0 (Cero, Nada!).

Podiums: Honda = 38. Ducati = 9. Yamaha = 1 (a single 3rd place).



Does that seem like a good bike, or 2nd best?



Foward to 2004's only from January onwards and at first race: Yamaha 1 Win, 1 Podium.

TP70 said:

As far as him proving himself, well in my opinion he has not. I reckon you could stick Randy on that bike and he would be up there and we would be sing his praises. Jorge has lucked onto the best bike on the grid. Ok he won a couple of 250 champs against average competition and his timing was impeccable. Just look at the latest 2 x 250 WC's who are languishing on crap satellite bikes. Do you think either of them will get a factory Yamaha next year on the performances they are turning in on a satellite bike?

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It's definitely a case of not enough competitive bikes for the number of talented riders. How many spots are even going to be open on the factory bikes next year? Duc, Repsol, and Yam (forget Suzuki, they are still behind). Four of the seats are going to the aliens (assuming Rossi stays), if Hayden keeps up his performance he'll get another year. Will Dovi keep his seat? It seems it will be a year or two before anything opens up.

Jumkie said:

Btw, I saw the race again last night. Wow, Lorenzo is something special.

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i watched the replay too it felt like i was watching the race for the first time.



kudos to all of the riders (and yes jumkie, that includes pedrosa )

Keshav said:

Those kind of times makes me hope against hope (in this 800 era) for lots of close racing this season.

Seeing Nicky up there in 3rd for such a long piece of the race had my little tosies all curled up. After

re-watching the race - I gotta say those last 4 laps were pretty hot. I really didn't think Lorenzo could

get past all of them in that short a time. That was some epic riding.

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Moto2 is highlighting MotoGP's flaws, imo. No matter how hard we work to appreciate the sport of MotoGP, there is almost nothing interesting about watching the world's best riders (the cream of the cream) act as pawns in a hegemonic advertising campaign for the snootiest MSMA companies. Unfortunately, Moto2 doesn't have much depth b/c so many parts are spec, but when it comes to improving the sport of motorcycle racing, the little dumbed-down 600s are worth more than all of the MotoGP prototypes combined.



If given the choice between a tweaked 800cc formula, and the three tier disaster they are proposing for 2012, I'd take the 800s. I'm willing to accept that it will take time to work out the sport's problems, but certainly the MSMA can find some way to at least stop the bleeding. MotoGP must produce close racing and close lap times like it has this weekend at Jerez regardless of what Honda and Yamaha want. The rumors have suggested that Ducati and Suzuki are willing to redesign engines for 2012 while Honda and Yamaha are looking for a way to get out from under the 81mm cap for 800cc engines. If the rumors are true, all of the manufacturers are willing to redesign their engines, it's just that the MSMA are deeply divided about whether or not entire sport should be re-engineered for high horsepower 1000cc engines. The engines are being constantly redesigned anyway, why not just bore limit the 800s and be done with it?



Why not just rev limit to 76mm or 78mm (230-240hp) and give it 5 more years to see what direction the global economy takes? If they opt for the conservative 76mm the engines probably won't even rev to 18,000rpm which means the manufacturers can continue to push the limits of engine durability. Add at least 1 liter of fuel no matter how much Honda cries to relieve a bit of pressure on the electronics engineers and to give the riders a bit more control over the rear wheel. Or maybe it should be 76mm bore limit or 17,500rpm rev limit? That way the manufacturers can't whine about having their design freedom revoked. FB Corse would be allowed to continue with their triple.



I know it's a little off topic, but the engine rules have at least proved that the 800s can be entertaining when mega-spending on peak power is rendered useless. I say give the 800s five more years with minor changes to the rules, and lets see what happens. 800cc prototype engines with some common sense rules to reduce costs and improve the spectacle are preferable to 1000cc production engines, imo. Maybe a few other manufacturers will join if engine development is predictable.

TP70 said:

As far as after race interviews I have read 2. There is one on Kro's site and another on crash so I am unsure at what you are referring to here Jaz.

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I am not sure what is being referred to either, did he wave someone away after getting off the bike? He obviously wasn't required for the podium interview. I suspect he was pissed off with himself if he was with anyone as is commonly the case with him, perhaps because towards the end of the race there appeared to be speed he had not previously realised. From my quite possibly biased fanboy perspective he was fairly gracious in the motomatters interview saying that nicky had achieved a better set-up and that it was good for the team thay nicky was now fast, and acknowledging that lorenzo was untouchable in the race whatever he might have done.