I disagree with just about all you say. I find your comment insulting. I've followed racing for decades and you think i find win celebrations a distraction to race craft and talent ? I suppose we all think rossi is better than he actually is because of his celebrations. The fact he has 9 wc's is neither here nor there. Dont you think its a tad early to be saying spies is better than Lorenzo ?? .... it's not as if he has even podiumed a gp bike yet and before you say too much about it being a non factory bike . Firstly there not so different this early in the season and secondly tech 3 is a great team who have podiumed in the past. Im not saying spies aint a great rider but so far he's not shown anything to write home about.
rd2, jerez... race rants........SPOILERS
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I disagree with just about all you say. I find your comment insulting. I've followed racing for decades and you think i find win celebrations a distraction to race craft and talent ? I suppose we all think rossi is better than he actually is because of his celebrations. The fact he has 9 wc's is neither here nor there. Dont you think its a tad early to be saying spies is better than Lorenzo ?? .... it's not as if he has even podiumed a gp bike yet and before you say too much about it being a non factory bike . Firstly there not so different this early in the season and secondly tech 3 is a great team who have podiumed in the past. Im not saying spies aint a great rider but so far he's not shown anything to write home about.
Sorry Rog. Wasn't actually directed at you. I generally respect your views (when you are being serious and not taking the piss that is) even though they differ from mine at times. I also have no problem having a differing view to yours as I think mostly you debate a topic on its merits and not base it on previous history to much (except where BM is concerned!) and you generally debate like an adult and not take it personally.
I don't think you can deny that there is a contingent that value the persona very highly in their evaluation of a rider. I think the overwhelming factor in peoples negative opinion of Stoner as a MotoGP racer is his persona. For this to be the case it only stands to reason that they must be using the same criteria in their selection of their favourite rider. As a Stoner fan it probably rings true that I value the persona very low in my criteria if not I would have a fairly warped view of what are endearing character traits in an individual! But then I will admit that even if it ranks low I still take persona into it as well because I dislike the showboating intensely, always have even when I was a big fan of Rossi his antics always made me cringe.
As far as Spies is concerned I am saying that I think Spies will have a better career in MotoGP then Lorenzo and is a better rider because I think he has the special 'it' factor and I am saying I don't think Lorenzo does. Sure Lorenzo has been there for longer and has won races but Spies has only completed 2 races as a full time rider. Spies has 2 AMA Championships and a WSBK Championship where as Lorenzo only has a couple of minor class championships. I know I am inviting more flaming from that comment but I see 250cc as a kids championship where Nationality is almost as important as talent where as WSBK is for men. If Lorenzo had a WSBK Championship I would rate him much higher. Also Lorenzo has spent quite a few years in the MotoGP paddock and riding the race tracks it frequents. Spies has raced only American tracks except for the last 12 mths or so. I also like Spies persona because he is understated and just gets on with it without attracting attention to himself. Reminds me of a movie, with Ice Cube in it as a school football coach with a girl as the quarterback. After they win a game at training the next day he talks about celebrating after a touch down. He says he always used to walk up to the ref and had them the ball calmly and his intent was that "I have been here before and I will be here again". I like that and that is what I see in Spies.
This is the reason i find it a stupid comment to say spies is better than Lorenzo. Spies as you correctly say has only completed a couple of gp races and not yet achieved anything. You say he has the "it" factor, well im not to sure what that is ?
You also say Lorenzo only achieved 2 wc's in the 'minor' class against 'mediocre' competition. Well personally is say the competition in 250gp was a lot more challenging than the competition spies had in the dieing series called AMA. ....,when i was at laguna most fans didn't even stay to watch those races where as in europe the 125 and 250's are/were far more popular than motogp itself so calling it a minor series is a blinkered view. I believe so far in their careers Lorenzo has achieved more than rossi,well according to some commentators, whether he can continue this trend is yet to be seen but looking at his jerez performance i would not write him off. I don't want to sound anti spies because im not but there's a lot of hype and not so much substance at the moment.
Yeah but Lorenzo didn't have to beat an Aussie where as Spies did! There is huge value in just that alone!
I'm not in Europe so can't comment on the 125 and 250 popularity. But from my view from here 125 and 250 championships are almost more dependent on the version of Aprillia you get than even MotoGP is dependent on the bike. Looking at the number of 'minor class' world championships sitting on the MotoGP grid and the number of race wins that they have accomplished I would certainly say it is not a prerequisite to MotoGP success. After all Stoner never won a minor class championship and he has more premier class wins than the rest of the field combined if you take out Rossi. If you look at Moto2 there have been some riders who were grid fillers on uncompetitive 250's that are all of a sudden running at or near the front. Why? Because they always had talent they just didn't have the bike. Of course this is nothing new in any type of motor sport.
would say for a lot of racers it's harder to be competitive on a 2 stroke 250 than it is on the new moto2 4 stroke bikes for lots of reasons. Power delivery and narrow powerbands being one of the most obvious . I dont think you can draw a fair comparison from taking one riders race win's (stoner) mainly over one season and form a judgment on where the better suited riders come from. Just look at how many superbike champs have gone through the gp class and achieved sub par results compared to there superbike results. wsb and ama seems to be a retirement home for ex gp racers where as 250 was seen as the training class for gp. Look at the quality thats come from 250 over the years and these riders tend to be the better people to develop and set up bikes too. Stoners 07 bullet was the work of ex 250 supremo capi. I exclude dani in this though, he couldn't develop a cold imo .
Just to get the record straight, Ben Spies is a 5 time AMA champion. He's got 3 consecutive AMA SBK titles, 1 FX title (from the 1000cc era), and 1 Superstock title (also 1000cc).
I watched Spies mature into a rider, I remember seeing him back in the 600's in the AMA. It was pretty straight forward that if you got a suzuki ride in the AMA, you won, in the 1000's. People called it the Ben and Mat show, every single race was the same, it's one of the reasons the AMA is trashed in my opinion, people got really bored. His only real competition was his teammate, no one else on the gird ever really came close to matching the Suzuki. I think all the effort working with Mat had paid off, he showed just how good he is in WSBK. He had a factory ride and was fast. Im not a big Spies fan, but I do think he is good, not god, but good. I'd like to see him get a factory ride and he for sure needs a full year to learn all the tracks. With that said, to see him near the front is amazing for such little time at each track.
If Spies is as good as people are saying, I expect him to perform VERY well at a track he knows, like Laguna. Top 3 at least. He has no excuses.
If Spies is as good as people are saying, I expect him to perform VERY well at a track he knows, like Laguna. Top 3 at least. He has no excuses.
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You make a good observation about the AMA Suzuki, and I admit I was one to feel the same, but in retrospect, I'd have to say Ben & Mat were the difference.
I agree with you and Rog that Spies hasn't accomplished anything yet, which I don't think anybody is arguing. He has displayed 'potential' and this is what some people are high on. I too was not a fan of his during his AMA career, I guess because I rooted for the under dogs who's personality was more endearing (Bostroms, Haydens, Zemke, etc.). But after watching him in WSBK and reading his interviews, I've become a fan. (Funny, but I had a similar turn around about Lorenzo, wasn't a fan during 250s, but now I've warmed up to him the last two years).
As far as your podium expectation, I do think he will do it, but its rather way to much to "expect". Consider its not just about track knowledge, he will have to battle the top 5 guys who have had considerable experience on their machines, and are not new to the track themselves.
IMO Lorenzo is good and has the "It" factor. Even Rossi knows that he is a major threat and I think is quite puzzled on how to deal with the situation. The one thing that Lorenzo didn't have was maturity when he came to the 800's. He was all out, win or go home in a stretcher type, and he is very lucky to be racing today. The first two races he has shown a maturity that is unknown from him. He has let the racing come to him. He has studied the situation, found a rythm, let his bike give him the feedback, then pushed to the maximum. He has discovered the age old saying, you don't win a race in the first lap but you can definitely lose it. I think this year may be his year. We have yet to see what he will do when things don't go his way and the setup just isn't quite right. Will he push it beyond the limits or will he do damage control ala Rossi and Stoner. If he can scale it back when things aren't perfect I think he will have the final peice to his puzzle.
Spies takes a totally different approach. He is more calculating and precise. I think that he has more brains than Lorenzo although I don't know if he has better skills, that is to be determined. Spies will take longer to get to Lorenzo's level but we won't see him flying off his bike every other track trying to push too hard.
Spies takes a totally different approach. He is more calculating and precise. I think that he has more brains than Lorenzo although I don't know if he has better skills, that is to be determined. Spies will take longer to get to Lorenzo's level but we won't see him flying off his bike every other track trying to push too hard.
Well yes they have ! That's what the whole debate with TP and I was all about. Talking up spies and his 'it' factor while dissin lorenzo, his 2 wc's and his jerez result and performance ! As you say spies in AMA only had 1 competitor 'his team mate' while TP claimed Lorenzo's championships were against nobody's.
Your second point about now liking and respecting Lorenzo. My point exactly in countering TP's comment about "no special points for riding injured". I know for a fact that this is one of the main reasons for your turn around of opinion towards him, like myself and many others. We call them 'brownie points".
I've always had respect and said i think it's the sign of a champion if a rider can come back from a serious crash and injury and be just as fast. Lorenzo seems to come back even faster. Something even Rossi has not yet proven because he seems to be made of rubber .
Good post sacky.
One thing ive noticed about Lorenzo is his ability to learn by his mistakes and learn what other riders do in some situations. Learn from the man who beat you so you can use it to beat others.
Excellent ride from Lorenzo in Jerez, but i still think he is giving too much away in the start of the race and this ain't going to work on the tracks where Stoner and Rossi finds good race setups. If on those tracks Lorenzo is giving away 2 secs in the first 5 or 6 laps that gap going to stay like that so in my opinion he needs to improve his pace from the very first lap and try to stay close to Stoner or Rossi.
Edit: Another thing i believe that Lorenzo garage manage to find better setup in both races so far so the ball is in Rossi's garage to up there game.
Edit: Another thing i believe that Lorenzo garage manage to find better setup in both races so far so the ball is in Rossi's garage to up there game.
Remind you of anyone ?
Don't worrie, it's not like I've converted or anything. But then again I'm sure Jumkie can find the hidden conspiracy between the two of us, you know the one not even we knew about
Seriously I think Lorenzo had a fine race and a Rossi-like ending conserving tires and a bike that worked better with little fuel. It's just that the praise got a bit tooooo much for a while here. It's not unknown to set the fastest lap/lap record at the end of the race, and while Lorenzo set his fastest lap he didn't set the fastest lap. In other words, he didn't get faster but he others got slower.
Good for him but just as you say, there's little magic there.
And we have Dorna to thank for that, with all there rules that are now impeding racing. You just wait until the last third of the season
Remind you of anyone ?Except i think now due to the fuel limits and engine rule poor start are not going to be as disastrous as they used to be.
You know what Rog, i was thinking the same while i was watching the race. I thought hang on a mintue i am sure i have seen this before with a different rider
Do you really think we consider a Great Rider because of the stunts he celebrates victories by? Come on TP, problem is that other Rider fans keep on trying to elevate their Riders to Legendary Status when they have not proven so. For example (Obviously a Bopper):
Rossi: 8 out of 10 Great Seasons in Top Class, meaning 7 Championships and a 2nd place Rookie Year, with worst 3rd place Season finish, plus a 2nd place. Actually One win and One 3rd place in 2010.
Lorenzo: 1 out of 2 Good Seasons in Top Class, meaning a 2nd place and a fourth place Rookie Year. Actually One win and One 2nd place in 2010.
Stoner: 1 out of 4 Great Seasons in Top Class, meaning 1 Championship and an eight place Rookie Year, with worst 8th place Season finish, plus a 2nd and a 4th place. Actually One DNF and One 5th place in 2010. Ok, Stoner has 20 wins too.
Pedrosa: 1 out of 4 Good Seasons in Top Class, meaning a 2nd place and a 5th place Rookie Year, with worst 5th place Season finish plus two 3rd places. Actually One 2nd and One 7th place in 2010.
It is not the way they celebrate mate!
Same thoughts of mine applied to Stoner, and with really heavy statistics that he just has not matched, nor will he ever do. I think this is what you cannot see from opinions like mine.
Joined Oct 2006
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Great post Sack.
Lorenzo stalked Hayden for a lap and a half, then passed him in the same place he passed Rossi. That is, he found his own strength and capitalized on it.
Lorenzo was strong in that turn. I'd say that shows he was patient and calculating his moves not being haphazard. Do you realize he passed Rossi & Hayden and eventually Pedrosa at the same turn? Look again, you will see that same white kitty litter on the corner. I'm not sure where you get the lack of "determination" quality of that pass attempt? I'm sure if Rossi had attempted to force an error, you would be singing his praises; yet here you characterize it as "bad timing" & "risky".
This race was one of Lorenzo's finest displays of racecraft.
Definitely true. Since the passing attempts were quite clumsy and poorly timed given his relative pace to Pedrosa, wouldn't you say it's a bit early to declare that Lorenzo has the IT factor?
There are only three IT factors, imo:
1. You're too fast to be caught. Fast Freddie, Casey Stoner, Mick Doohan, Valentino Rossi
2. You're a brilliant tactician who bides his time. Valentino Rossi, Mick Doohan, Rainey, Lawson
3. You're a barroom brawler who somehow manages to win battles more often than lose. Mainly superbiker greats like Foggy, Edwards, Spies, Toseland, etc. Schwantz probably counts as well.
Lorenzo doesn't have any of these IT factors, yet. He can be caught, and from time to time he forgets to show up on race day. He's not a brilliant race tactician. He's not a good brawler.
Lorenzo is definitely a major talent and I won't be at all surprised if he wins a title this year or in the near future. He has a great style too, but I wouldn't consider his current form to be indicative of someone who is going to capture a clutch of world titles. The edge still needs a bit of sharpening for him to get the IT factor, imo.
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