rd2, jerez... race rants........SPOILERS

Duc999 said:

Also Simoncelli seemed to adjust pretty well to an 1000cc WSBK during his wild card race.

I believe he podium-ed without ever setting foot on the Aprilia before. I definitely would rate Lorenzo's talent above Simoncelli..



Trust me Lorenzo would be there..

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I believe Simoncelli had multiple tests of the RSV4 under his belt before his wildcard ride. Remember, Aprilia were lobbying heavily to get him to jump to WSBK. My memory says he had two full tests before his ride. Not saying it was unimpressive, I was pleasantly surprised, but let's keep it in context.

xx CURVE xx said:

dude go back and check out MotoGP 2002-2004 then come back

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Biaggi bagged a couple of wins in 2002. Everyone keeps saying the M1 was .... and so was Biaggi. It can't be both, so which is it? Who was going to get those wins for Yamaha in 2003? Alex Barros? Carlos Checa? Biaggi's departure hurt them in a big way. Like those before me have said, it certainly wasn't the class of the field when Rossi and Burgess arrived. And it certainly didn't become the class of the field the moment Rossi swung a leg over it the first time. It took a lot of hard work over the course of a season, season-and-a-half to make the M1 into a worthy adversary for the RC211V. But it certainly wasn't a GSV-R or a ZX-RR. Somewhere on par with the GP03, and ahead of the GP04.

Wander said:

Good post. I also think that the best riders will be at the front no matter what capacity bike or under what rules they are riding. Obviously some riders are affected but I think ultimately the best of the lot will always stand out.

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Thanks Wander..You got my point exactly... No matter the rules/bike change etc..The best riders will be at the front..

The Lorenzo/Rossi battle is going to be one for the ages. Lorenzo's ride was very, very impressive. Someone mentioned mature and that hits the nail on the head. That's been the lacking ingredient in his riding for the past two seasons and so far in 2010, he's had it in spades. He's getting healthy and hitting stride, he will be tough to beat. That being said, Rossi had a bum shoulder and missed his setup and still managed a comfortable podium and looked up for a potential win. Everyone is getting goo-goo-ga-ga over Lorenzo (myself included), but Rossi just threw down a gutsy performance and it's ho-hum. If this were later in the season, this would be the sort of ride that wins you a title. I was very impressed with Valentino today.



Pedrosa surprised me. I thought for sure he was going to fade. All the indications were there. He was nowhere all weekend, threw on a sticky and managed one strong lap, was terribly unhappy about the whole thing. I thought for sure, Pedro was going backwards from the second corner. I contradict myself more times than I can remember when it comes to Pedrosa, but I said in the winter he could be very strong with some positive testing behind him. He's a touch late, but he seems to be coming good (or at the very least, Honda don't mind burning cash on one-off frames and chassis for Dani and it's making him look good). As far as Puig goes, I had to roll my eyes when I saw him put out +.8 but then I thought about it. He was crucified for playing this game with Dani in Germany, you'd think he wouldn't do that again. I have to wonder if Dani requests that, needs the added motivation. Just a thought, not a defense.



Nicky had another great ride. Like he said, to show up on Friday at a track where they hadn't been testing, to be close straight away was a massive success. It would have been nice if he didn't throw the thing away at 130 yesterday so he could have used the rest of the session. He thought he had another couple of tenths in him, another half hour might have helped. But it's a positive result, regardless. He can build on this as we start into the European rounds where Hayden has traditionally been very quick.



I'm not ready to hit the panic button for Stoner yet, but I'm awfully confused. He's never been fond of Jerez, but you'd think he'd finish above Hayden if he's going to challenge for the title. Maybe it was a fluke. Or maybe Hayden has gotten it more right than anyone's realized.

Duc999 said:

Come on Jum. Speculation...It''s speculation that Loris is an Alien. He did well in '06..he was on a top ride.. He did not do well in '07 in the same factory team. His younger Alien teammate shocked the world..I do believe Capirex had more time in the factory team and more development input. Casey came in and rode the hell out of the bike. don't get me wrong.. i like Capirex. I have a couple Capirex replica helmets. But those are the facts.



Would Jorge languish on a sub par ride..Suzuki-Yes. Honda..No..(Speculation

here) but given Casey's and Dovi's performance on the LCR/Satellite Honda.. I don't think there is any doubt that Lorenzo's talent would shine.

"Well considering hes on a bike that is still inferior to the factory Yamaha, i'd say ther was not much insight in ur implication; which i find similar to ur Lorenzo point (in reverse). U get what im saying buddy? "

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I don't get what you are saying:

Insight (Two guys, Same teams ..Results-Hayden behind Rossi)



2003 Repsol Honda

Rossi was teammate with: Hayden



Rossi: 9Wins,5 P2's, 2P3's

Hayden: 2 P3's (2 Podiums) 5th in the Championship

The following Year Rossi left Repsol. Hayden Remained. Hayden's 2nd Year @ Repsol Honda 8th overall with two P3's



2008 Fiat Yamaha

Rossi teamed with Lorenzo

Rossi We know what he did...

Lorenzo: 1 Win, 3 P2's, 2P3's (6podiums) 4th in the Championship..

Lorenzo's 2nd Year Fiat Yamaha - 2nd in the Championship..4 wins,5 P2's,3 P3's.





Puig/Pedrosa: No debate on them being A$$'s to Hayden and Pouty in the Paddock..

Hell Ducati did Capirex/Bayliss Wrong.. really wrong... I am none to happy about it but..there isn't to much out cry about that.

Honda Gave CEII the raw deal.....



Everything is speculation unless you give the entire grid a Rossi spec yamaha M1 for a season

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Ok, I said I would drop it, but since you insist on making a fool of yourself I will acquiesce. You got my attention now, you happy?



So your assessment regarding Capi's "non-alien" status is after the switch to an unridable 800 Duc screamer? EPIC FAIL (NOBODY other than Stoner was gonna ride that thing, and nobody did (despite three former world champions trying, but I suppose Lorenzo or whoever would have been different right? [sarcasm])



So your comparison of Hayden's rookie year with Rossi's #1 status & 4th year in the class is reasonable? EPIC FAIL. (Do you even understand the basic effect about rider status within GP teams? Seems like you don't. While you were superficially analyzing, did you come up with an explanation of the effect of Rossi leaving and how that would impact Hayden's temporary status? Yes, it was elevated, but not completely because Honda was looking a Pedrosa, but just with this slight elevation, puff, Hayden beats Rossi. But according to you, he belongs "behind" him right? Yeah, and that was done on an ‘evolution’ bike, something you might not understand).



So your comparison of rookie years Lorenzo vs Hayden's, who had a grand total of zero experience in GP? EPIC FAIL (Do you realize that Lorenzo came into the top class as a 250 champion vs Hayden only seeing Europe on color TV?)



So your comparison to Lorenzo's #1 status at Yamaha vs Hayden's 'never' #1 status (even as a champ) is reasonable? EPIC FAIL (Do you read the sports news and understand the nature of the series or do you watch like my friends do who have a casual understanding of GP, see the winner, and conclude; 'well he's the best', period. Looks like it, cuz so far I've read little to zero insight these few threads).



Pedroas/Puig thingy--ok, I see you see the light on this one. Hahahaha.

Jumkie said:

So your comparison of rookie years Lorenzo vs Hayden's, who had a grand total of zero experience in GP? EPIC FAIL (Do you realize that Lorenzo came into the top class as a double 250 champion vs Hayden only seeing Europe on color TV?)

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Fixed.

Duc999 said:

Thanks Wander..You got my point exactly... No matter the rules/bike change etc..The best riders will be at the front..

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With all do respect, its obvious, you and Wander don't quite understand prototype racing at the GP level then. You said yourself, if Lorenzo was on a Suzuki, he wouldn't be a front runner as on a Honda. So are you recanting, or just forgetting you said this, because honestly that assessment is not consistent with your statement highlighted above.

What a bunch of dumb .... posts about this race; I can't believe I sit here and read them.

Jumkie said:

So your comparison of rookie years Lorenzo vs Hayden's, who had a grand total of zero experience in GP? EPIC FAIL (Do you realize that Lorenzo came into the top class as a 250 champion vs Hayden only seeing Europe on color TV?)

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Let's not forget that Hayden's coming of age was during the tire war era. Back in the day Rossi told Michelin what he wanted, and they delivered. The riders were not adapting to a control tire, the 2nd class riders were conforming to the championship contenders' idea of the perfect tire. Not faulting the old arrangement, but the second class citizens were even more second class back then. Bike and tires were designed for someone else. Nowadays the bikes are designed to fit the tires. Everyone gets the same rubber. Very different situation, imo.

JUM:So your assessment regarding Capi's "non-alien" status is after the switch to an unridable 800 Duc screamer? EPIC FAIL (NOBODY other than Stoner was gonna ride that thing, and nobody did (despite three former world champions trying, but I suppose Lorenzo or whoever would have been different right? [sarcasm])



Well let's see..Who was #1 in the team when Stoner came into Factory Ducati:.. Not Stoner but ah yeah.. his number one status coming from the satellite honda overrides Capi status..NOT

You can't have it both ways... Capi's an alien.. he is on the same bike and Stoner where are the results? oh noone other than Stoner..Lame...



On one hand you argue about Status in GP teams.. but Capirex was #1 in the team.. I seem to not understand prototype racing.. hmmm the #1 gives the development input.. you don't think Capirex had much more input into the development of the "Stoner only Ducati" Stoner hadn't made it to the team.. I must not be able to under stand that..



So your comparison of Hayden's rookie year with Rossi's #1 status & 4th year in the class is reasonable? EPIC FAIL. (Do you even understand the basic effect about rider status within GP teams? Seems like you don't. While you were superficially analyzing, did you come up with an explanation of the effect of Rossi leaving and how that would impact Hayden's temporary status? Yes, it was elevated, but not completely because Honda was looking a Pedrosa, but just with this slight elevation, puff, Hayden beats Rossi. But according to you, he belongs "behind" him right? Yeah, and that was done on an ‘evolution’ bike, something you might not understand).



Nice Try with the condescension but you fail..You seem off put by Hayden being behind Rossi.." This is a ranking of the Talent in the series.. Where do rank the riders?

Who is above Rossi? Hayden is NOT. He is behind Rossi. No one will doubt that. NEXT



So your comparison of rookie years Lorenzo vs Hayden's, who had a grand total of zero experience in GP? EPIC FAIL (Do you realize that Lorenzo came into the top class as a 250 champion vs Hayden only seeing Europe on color TV?)



Wow.. I must have missed that while following Lorenzo in the 250's. So how many years do you need to learn the tracks.. 4yrs.. (Spies is in trouble) his 1 year to learn the tracks wont be enough..



So your comparison to Lorenzo's #1 status at Yamaha vs Hayden's 'never' #1 status (even as a champ) is reasonable? EPIC FAIL (Do you read the sports news and understand the nature of the series or do you watch like my friends do who have a casual understanding of GP, see the winner, and conclude; 'well he's the best', period. Looks like it, cuz so far I've read little to zero insight these few threads).



Did Lorenzo have equal #1 status with Rossi or did we forget that was what he was bitching about. He wanted equality with Rossi.. he did not get equality until this year.. You Fail





So tell me where is Hayden in your rankings...

Speculate where he would be on Jorge's bike..Would he beat Jorge...

michaelm said:

The bike itself would not appear to be fully sorted in terms of front turn-in particularly given nicky's crash by a similar mechanism,

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Beatty said last night that Ducati are looking at the "balance" of the bike.



which I adressed here:

BarryMachine said:

Well after Qatar, I'm still waiting ..... to see if the new "big bang" Duc. does not suit Stoner.



Seems to me he came from a bike where he had difficulties with front end grip ( LCR ), to a bike that had a loose back end. The screamer version would have had all the "usual symptoms", with a propensity to let go at the back quite easily. When it does this the front end would seem like the focus for grip.



Now even Stoner says the rear end of the Duc. grip so well ....... so ..... have we seen the start of another 2006? due to the shift in grip on the Duc. ..... Stoner has spent his formative years in dirt, where the front end is "all" and the back can be "waving about in the breeze" for all one cares. So long as you have that front grip and rear wheel is helping the front go where is should, no matter which way it is facing.



I hope Duc. have kept the option to go back to Screamer for Stoner.

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I'll give it one more round before I decide whether they have "neutered the brumby" for Stoner.



It may now be easier to ride for everyone ....... but may be too mediocre to ever win on

Austin said:

The Lorenzo/Rossi battle is going to be one for the ages. Lorenzo's ride was very, very impressive. Someone mentioned mature and that hits the nail on the head. That's been the lacking ingredient in his riding for the past two seasons and so far in 2010, he's had it in spades. He's getting healthy and hitting stride, he will be tough to beat. That being said, Rossi had a bum shoulder and missed his setup and still managed a comfortable podium and looked up for a potential win. Everyone is getting goo-goo-ga-ga over Lorenzo (myself included), but Rossi just threw down a gutsy performance and it's ho-hum. If this were later in the season, this would be the sort of ride that wins you a title. I was very impressed with Valentino today.

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Rossi vs. Lorenzo is fast becoming the story line for 2010. I have to admit, I'm a bit surprised. Since most seasons have been fairly conventional in terms of the ontrack events, I thought things would be going much differently this season, and I was already beginning to look forward to the silly season b/c, honestly, the championship storylines haven't exactly been enthralling for the last several years (even though some of the racing has been epic). Almost every analysis of past years' events revolved around somebody who crashes too much or somebody's lack of race craft or somebody's bike or someone's unfair political power. Sadly, all of them had a legitimate impact on the championship race.



But this year it's different in my view. Yeah, Casey crashed in Qatar, but it's more about who wants it most---not who screws up the least. Close racing is the cause for this season's slightly different feel, imo. I hope it continues.



I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned it yet, but this is the second race in a row where Lorenzo has been much faster than everyone else on track. I wonder if he and his crew have found something.

Duc999 said:

Get off your high condescending horse...You obviously don't understand. Your speculation on Capirex doesn't stand.

Your criticisms are unfounded. The solidify you as a bully. Oh educated the simpletons why don't you..



Hayden pulled 5th followed by and 8th on the best bike in the paddock.

Lorenzo pulls a 4th then and 2nd.

Wow.. I guess. Insulting my intelligence works.. I don't quite understand how a 2nd place is better than an 8th..



Hayden is talented. he is not as fast as Lorenzo/Rossi



Sorry for you buddy I see the internet bully in you.Good job..

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Frustrated that u got nothing by throwing out the "bully" card? Ive been nice to u actually, preficing my replies with "all do respect" & " friend/buddy" throwing in cute and cuddly emoticons to make my exchanges not sting when ur ignorant takes have been exposed for superficial analysis. It seems uv wanted to continue digging a hole. Im happy to lend u a shovel. U wanted my attention, no prob, u got it buddy. Continue making lame comparisons, ignorant conclusions, fantasy speculations, etc. This is a place for exchanges of opinions, so dont get ur panties in a bunch when those opinions r challenged against the reality of the topic. U turn to the bully card because ur being a pansy. Grow some skin dude.



Its too bad we got here; u seemed like a solid dude, as i wasnt looking for a tangle. I guess u couldn't take a bit of a challenge to ur takes.

bojuhl said:

What a bunch of dumb .... posts about this race; I can't believe I sit here and read them.

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Dude..

This is what this forum is all about.. I enjoy it myself..

Motogp is not a big sport here in the states.growing, but very small in comparison to the others. I can't get a good water cooler debate about it with any of my buddies.. Why not get into a good one here. iron sharpens iron..

michaelm said:

My working hypothesis is that nicky is fast rather than that stoner is slow, and given a year on a team equipped with a bike which is at least potentially good where his input is acted upon, neither of which appeared to be the case in 2007 and 2008, hayden is getting towards being as fast as you would expect the 2006 world champion to be.

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I think in this very limited instance that Stoner is actually going slowly.



If the pundits are right, the control tire era is all about putting as much weight over the rear tire as possible and then generating front end load (and temperature) by flinging the bike into the corners at speeds that we common fans can't even imagine. I have no way of knowing, but I think Ducati took a conservative approach. After Stoner chucked it down the road during practice Ducati might have encouraged Casey to take a more conservative setup by putting more weight over the front end which seems to tax the tire a bit during corner entry and cost the riders a bit of speed on the exit. Ducati might have thought that Pedrosa and Hayden probably weren't going to challenge Stoner even with a more conservative setup so Stoner could avoid a disastrous double DNF and simply escape with a podium or a 4th place.



Didn't quite go according to plan. Stoner collected his 11pts and now he's going to have to start gambling.

mylexicon said:

I wonder if he and his crew have found something.

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Well yeah he has ....... obviously the Rossifans were right and he's found Rossi's data!



Must admit its odd given he was injured up to the tests.



But really Jerez was the best I have seen Lorenzo, and goes down as one of the greatest rides of all time. I he had so much "momentum" when he got to Pedrosa I expected him to blow it and take them both out but he seemed to have a neon sign with "careful" written on it hovering above him ...... great ride, especially when you consider he is still getting over his MX crash .

Jumkie said:

Frustrated that u got nothing by throwing out the "bully" card? Ive been nice to u actually, preficing my replies with "all do respect" & " friend/buddy" throwing in cute and cuddly emoticons to make my exchanges not sting when ur ignorant takes have been exposed for superficial analysis. It seems uv wanted to continue digging a hole. Im happy to lend u a shovel. U wanted my attention, no prob, u got it buddy. Continue making lame comparisons, ignorant conclusions, fantasy speculations, etc. This is a place for exchanges of opinions, so dont get ur panties in a bunch when those opinions r challenged against the reality of the topic. U turn to the bully card because ur being a pansy. Grow some skin dude.

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You posted before I got to your comments.. I edited.. re read..it aint about being a pansy as much as you being a ......



no one is digging a hole.. You made a judgment as if I don't follow the sport and is ignorant to the game. I was here when the riders were bitching about who got what parts, who got special overnight tires.. who was where on the HRC pecking order..I could go on..



There is not ignorance here. My judgments are just as sound. I don't have to spout off as a know it all. but toot on..

Now seriously if this was about having a conversation it would be civil. It has been dismissive and judgmental.

Duc999 said:

You posted before I got to your comments.. I edited.. re read..it aint about being a pansy as much as you being a ......

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Nice of u to sit around trying to clean up ur lame takes. Ur a pansy dude. I've learned to exchange ideas, even with those that disagree, without them getting all butt hurt. U call me a .... because ur frustrated.



Note to self, dont disagree with Duc9, he cant handle it.



End of.



Back on topic for Bo



I forgot to mention, what happened to Edwards? He qualled in front of Spies but dropped. Did he get the same bumm tire lot as Spies?

Speaking of Lorenzo.... He rode impecccably, but against a Pedrosa who certainly hasn't the perfect bike (yet), and against a Rossi who refused to take painkillers and had not been able to set up the bike to his satisfaction. Stoner was probably too conservative in his setup/tactics, afraid to bin it again. So his life was relatively easy.

Let's wait for a race in which Rossi is 100% and Stoner rides a la Stoner: the battle will be different, and Lorenzo might have to settle for second, third or sometimes fourth, sometimes less

Jumkie said:

Whats up LF? How u doing bro.



True, the M1 needed help, and though this topic has been debated heavily, i'm not convinced it was crap. It wasnt the "best" but it was a close 2nd best. We r not talking about them turning a Harley into the space shuttle (as most revisionist would hav us believe). Rossi/Burgess made the difference, i agree there.

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Whats going on Jum, I thought about calling you at 4am to see if there was a GP bbq at your pad; but then i figured it was too late... or too early, whichever one.



Im not saying the M1 was crap by any means, but it definitely wasnt "top equipment" like Duc999 stated in his post. I believe in 2003, Yamaha was behind Ducati in constructor points and the M1 was viewed worse than Ducatis GP03. While that doesnt neccessarily mean anything to some, it meant something to Yamaha and Rossi to spawn an entirely different M1. The 2003 M1 and 2004 M1 are completely different bikes. I have no idea what was discussed previously and i surely dont want to bring back an old topic from the dead, then beat it to hell again, but... the way i remember it...



Yamaha knew they needed a better rider for the 2004 season and improve the M1.(I remember reading that somewhere back in 2003, but theres no way for me to source that now.) They paid lots of money to get Rossi, now that they have a winning rider, they needed to improve the bike. Immediately, Rossi and Burgess went to work with Yamaha to improve the power delivery and balance of the bike; the crossplane crankshaft was born and a new motor for 2004. As a team, Rossi/Burgess/Yamaha created a new Yamaha era. Rossi has said many times in the past, Burgess is a big part of his success and Yamaha believed in him enough to listen.

I realized i sound like a Rossi bopper in my last post. To set the record straight, im not a Rossi bopper, in fact, i dislike him but give him credit for his accomplishments and i acknowledge he is GOAT right now.



Getting back on topic. Lorenzo rode a great race today and im glad to see him in top health and form. Im amazed everytime i see him in top form and hopefully he can be more consistent this year and finally win the championship. He rides so smooth... its like hes riding on pure butter!