Race One 2019 - Losail Raceway - Doha, Qatar

For what its worth, I don't think that the way Dorna have set the rules is right, what they need to do is set a budget for each constructor. The money should be deposited with Dorna and when its run out tough, thats it for the season. It'll then be down to the rider.
The ecu and ancillary things should be left to the manufacturer as should how big your bike is, but all wings, external or internal should be banned, I'd like to see launch control banned as well. It would give a lot of riders a chance of winning instead of coming in 16th etc.
Good race yesterday anyway, so pleased for Cal he looked so surprised hahahaha.

AntG said:

The thing with Ducati is that yes they are a small company compared to the Japanese but ever since they returned to GP racing in 2003 they've had the backing of Phillip Morris International who are a massive corporation so while they may lack the overall manpower that Honda have they aren't short of money, I bet they have a bigger racing budget than Suzuki and Yamaha do given that they run factory teams in MotoGP, SBK and provide Ducati Corse technicians to PBM in BSB.

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Sure, the Marlboro money is significant, but the Ducati Corse operation in the 800 and 990 eras was scarcely bigger than Kenny Robert's operation, they couldn't make aluminium chassis, they couldn't make 2 trellis frames the same even for their lead rider, and while I haven't been in close sight of one of those bikes those who have speak of the artisanal/cobbled together nature of the devices. They have won one world championship ever, and that in their backyard operation days, a remarkable achievement, partly by co-developing a tire with the then also ran tire manufacturer, and had the rules changed against them straight away, not necessarily to help Honda though.

if their bikes are not compliant with the rules ban them. Otherwise they have already been pretty much forced to abandon their engineering DNA in a number of areas by the rules some claim are hampering Honda, and had a control tire imposed on them which rapidly moved away from suiting their somewhat idiosyncratic bike.

I am not anti-Honda btw, they provided bikes on which several of my favourite riders won GP championships, but complaining about Ducati (not addressing you in particular) who have won one championship ever and have not much option but to seek innovative engineering solutions to be competitive, and may have a genius engineer currently while Honda's engineering culture has historically not infrequently led them up blind alleys despite vastly superior resources, is a little rich imo. It is beginning to look as though a certain now retired engineer may have been rather crucial to Yamaha's success in recent decades as well; Yamaha relied on being cleverer than Honda with more limited resources as well.

(EDIT Those wings are ugly devices which just ain't natural though).

When Honda work around the rules with the seamless clutch (cause dual clutch wasn't allowed), they disrupted the cost regulation completely, specially because the new clutch lasts for no more than a single race without the need for maintenance. Well, we didn't heard a single "moan" from any manufacturer, instead, they all ran as quick as possible to design (or buy a design) its own version of the fast, seamless gear clutch. Personally I loved the idea and praise Honda for that. That's the spirit of prototype racing. But when is Ducati trying to innovate, it seems there are some manufacturers that do not accept being beaten in the engineering field.

Ducati has been a victim of rule changing overnight since 2006. 800cc engines, spec tires (the worst for them, it took them 4+ years to design a bike around a tire), wing ban/rules changing every year, among others.

If Dovi's victory is to be canceled, better give MM the 2019 champion crown right now and start 2020 season from Argentina. There is nobody else to challenge MM, canceling out 25 points from Dovi and give it free for MM starting the season 25 points over his main opponent is ridiculous from the championship point of view. A decision like that would kill the season.

This protest is a load of old tosh if you ask me. The whole point of prototype racing is to engineer solutions to problems as the rules are written. If it isn't banned in writing then it is legal. The rules are very clear. We shouldn't punish ingenuity unless it is a clear and deliberate misinterpretation of the rules.

Ducati have found a way to control rear tyre temperature using a solution no one else thought of. If this shouldn't be permitted then why weren't Yamaha's cut away mud guards banned too? Then are we suggesting the mud guards should be standardised?

And if we are going down this route not on safety or cost grounds then we may aswell have a spec series in its entirety.

Mark my words, the other teams will develop similar cowlings and vanes now they know they can't hamper Ducati's development direction as it provides a work around that no one else had the presence of mind to engineer.

There's no difference between Ducati current solution to minimise heat in the rear tyre, than Honda last year doing same for crutchlows front.

MILLER EXPLAINS SEAT ISSUE AS BAGNAIA REVEALS PETRUCCI HIT IN QATAR MOTOGP



The Pramac Ducati riders had a dismal start to their 2019 MotoGP campaign in Qatar with both Jack Miller and Francesco Bagnaia forced to retire from the race.

Miller made a dream start in Qatar GP abode the Desmosedici GP19 as he battled Ducati’s Andrea Dovizioso, Honda’s Marc Marquez and LCR Honda’s Cal Crutchlow in the top half of the grid under the floodlights at Losail International Circuit.

His journey was short-lived though when a bizarre incident hampered his progress. As he battled for podium positions, his seat loosened on Lap 2. He was forced to get up and throw away his seat on the middle of the circuit – rather dangerously.



By that time, he plummeted down the order already. He continued his fight around the Top 10 but soon realised that he will not be able to complete the race which he will end up in crashing and so he took the option to retire on Lap 13 eventually.

Explaining the unusual circumstances to the media afterwards, Miller said: “The seat is glued to the subframe and the subframe is painted and the paint didn’t stick well enough. The glue ripped the seat and the paint off.

“I was going through the fast sequence of the right-handers, the first one was good, the second one I almost fell off the inside of the bike because the seat broke and then I felt the seat clip back in as it is fitted. I thought it was OK.

“But then at the next corner, bang it fell off again. So, I made it through the next left-hander and looked down to see that the seat was twisted. I grabbed it and threw it [away] but essentially once the paint and seat had been ripped off, the carbon itself is like ice and our arses have got no grip on them.

“I was trying to manage it as best I could, trying to stay with the guys, but by the time I threw the seat off, I was outside the Top 10. In the end, when Nakagami and Aleix got back past me, I decided to pull in which was the safer option because I was probably going to crash.

“I am happy anyway as it was still a solid weekend and I felt I could really fight for the podium and we were showing that until the seat fell off. Even when the seat fell off, I was on a bike that wasn’t handling but I was still able to stay with the front group.

“I think it shows we have good speed.” Miller wanted to continue on but the lean angles was severely disrupted especially in the corners which did not help with the riding as he started to not only lose pace but also places.

The investigation will be carried on by the team to ascertain why the seat came off in the race when they had already completed the whole practice and qualifying. The day for the Italian outfit got worse when rookie Bagnaia had to pull in as well at a similar time.

The 2018 Moto2 champion was running around the Top 10 when he went straight on at Turn 1 before deciding to retire. It looked like a mechanical issue but the Italian later on revealed that he was hit by Petrucci at the start where he lost his right wing.

The team called it an ‘unfortunate hit’ by its former rider, while Bagnaia labelled it as an aggressive move on the part of his fellow countryman. “I got off to a good start taking a line that allowed me to gain positions,” said Bagnaia.

“In the first corner, however, there was a very aggressive overtaking on Petrucci who touched me breaking the right wing. I tried but it was impossible to continue. It was a good weekend in which we worked well and the first laps were important to understand how the others ride.”

ratdeal said:

This protest is a load of old tosh if you ask me. The whole point of prototype racing is to engineer solutions to problems as the rules are written. If it isn't banned in writing then it is legal. The rules are very clear. We shouldn't punish ingenuity unless it is a clear and deliberate misinterpretation of the rules.

Ducati have found a way to control rear tyre temperature using a solution no one else thought of. If this shouldn't be permitted then why weren't Yamaha's cut away mud guards banned too? Then are we suggesting the mud guards should be standardised?

And if we are going down this route not on safety or cost grounds then we may aswell have a spec series in its entirety.

Mark my words, the other teams will develop similar cowlings and vanes now they know they can't hamper Ducati's development direction as it provides a work around that no one else had the presence of mind to engineer.

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Good to see you back around mate.

Not alot to discuss in the off season!

Also, despite introducing many new fans to the sport they don't quite have the historical knowledge or technical understanding required to discuss to finer points of racing so I have to pop down here to get my fix every now and then!

One very interesting point to make is that the rear wheel spoiler isn't purely controlling the tyre temp by redirecting the airflow. Given it's design it is also speeding up the air before it reaches the tyre.

This creates two benefits:
1. It is accelerating the air providing a greater reduction in surface temp.
2. The side effect of this is that it is also creating some downforce. At higher speeds it is increasing the load on the tyre particularly in fast sweeping turns. The compound effect of this is that this load is preventing the tyre from spinning, providing a further decrease in the surface temperature of the tyre whilst increasing the load through the carcass and thus decreasing wear.

Ingenious in that it is controlling the tyre temp whilst also providing secondary benefits by increasing grip from additional load too!

ratdeal said:

One very interesting point to make is that the rear wheel spoiler isn't purely controlling the tyre temp by redirecting the airflow. Given it's design it is also speeding up the air before it reaches the tyre.

This creates two benefits:
1. It is accelerating the air providing a greater reduction in surface temp.
2. The side effect of this is that it is also creating some downforce. At higher speeds it is increasing the load on the tyre particularly in fast sweeping turns. The compound effect of this is that this load is preventing the tyre from spinning, providing a further decrease in the surface temperature of the tyre whilst increasing the load through the carcass and thus decreasing wear.

Ingenious in that it is controlling the tyre temp whilst also providing secondary benefits by increasing grip from additional load too!

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hmm, I think if it is generating downforce so it's in fact decelerating the air flow, and not accelerating. To create pressure you should slow down the air in the opposite direction you want the force to act (like an air plane wing).

But to be honest I highly doubt Ducati is using that .... to cool the tire.

gui22a said:

hmm, I think if it is generating downforce so it's in fact decelerating the air flow, and not accelerating. To create pressure you should slow down the air in the opposite direction you want the force to act (like an air plane wing).

But to be honest I highly doubt Ducati is using that .... to cool the tire.

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This is correct but only half the story as one side slows the airflow, the underside in fact increases in speed due to the pressure differential. Taking into account the direction and speed of the tyre as it moves past the wing only serves to accelerate this flow as it is in effect sucking the air both above and below the wing exaggerating this overall effect.

I think that the redirected airflow may have only a tiny effect in surface temperature due to direct contact but actually the temperature decrease is from the increased load preventing wheel spin. Marginal gains.

ratdeal said:

This is correct but only half the story as one side slows the airflow, the underside in fact increases in speed due to the pressure differential. Taking into account the direction and speed of the tyre as it moves past the wing only serves to accelerate this flow as it is in effect sucking the air both above and below the wing exaggerating this overall effect.

I think that the redirected airflow may have only a tiny effect in surface temperature due to direct contact but actually the temperature decrease is from the increased load preventing wheel spin. Marginal gains.

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You're right, good observation.

And yeah, I doubt it's cooling the tire from wind, more likely it's preventing extra heat from spin, as you pointed.

So, it's indeed a downforce wing. What is said by the rulebook? If this is prohibited, they must cancel Dovi's victory. On the other side, this will completely .... the title race and the championship will end before mid-season.

gui22a said:

You're right, good observation.

And yeah, I doubt it's cooling the tire from wind, more likely it's preventing extra heat from spin, as you pointed.

So, it's indeed a downforce wing. What is said by the rulebook? If this is prohibited, they must cancel Dovi's victory. On the other side, this will completely .... the title race and the championship will end before mid-season.

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This from Neil Spalding:

Unsprung aero certainly works for @Petrux9.. just puts a little more load into the tyre.. ...@DucatiMotor@MotoGP

The rules state that the aero dynamically regulated parts of the bike are the fairing and front mudguard. In addition the rear swingarm spoiler is not considered a movable aerodynamic device as it remains static in relation to its mounting point and is not independently controlled.

It has also been suggested that the front wheel cover is being used to control airflow further down the bike. Supporting this is that the front wheel cover and rear wheel spoiler are being used together and have not been used seperately thus far.

Usually the front wheel creates alot of turbulence. My guess is that the are trying to control this so that the airflow remains attached to the sides of and under the fairing in order to maximise the volume of air that is interacting with the rear wheel spoiler. The solution as a whole must create alot of drag, but the engine performance allows them some margin for this as they seemingly still have straight line performance to spare.

If the other manufacturers do not replicate the Ducati system I would say that is probably because they don't have enough engine performance to compensate for the increased drag.

ratdeal said:

It has also been suggested that the front wheel cover is being used to control airflow further down the bike. Supporting this is that the front wheel cover and rear wheel spoiler are being used together and have not been used seperately thus far.

Usually the front wheel creates alot of turbulence. My guess is that the are trying to control this so that the airflow remains attached to the sides of and under the fairing in order to maximise the volume of air that is interacting with the rear wheel spoiler. The solution as a whole must create alot of drag, but the engine performance allows them some margin for this as they seemingly still have straight line performance to spare.

If the other manufacturers do not replicate the Ducati system I would say that is probably because they don't have enough engine performance to compensate for the increased drag.

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I noticed that through cameras onboard MM bike that Ducati's Dovi was accelerating much better at the exit of corners, but in the end of the straight MM's Honda was more elastic. This can be due to better grip provided by the appendage, having also increased drag causing Ducati to slow down acceleration rate at the end of straight and thus lower top speed than Honda.

I also noted through (I hate type this word and any other beginning with thr, always mistaking, lol) engine audios that Honda has changed the firing order. I'm sure it's something between a big bang and a screamer.

Honda 2018:



Honda 2019:



What do you think?

gui22a said:

I noticed that through cameras onboard MM bike that Ducati's Dovi was accelerating much better at the exit of corners, but in the end of the straight MM's Honda was more elastic. This can be due to better grip provided by the appendage, having also increased drag causing Ducati to slow down acceleration rate at the end of straight and thus lower top speed than Honda.

I also noted through (I hate type this word and any other beginning with thr, always mistaking, lol) engine audios that Honda has changed the firing order. I'm sure it's something between a big bang and a screamer.

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The Ducati has always had great performance in the exit phase of the corner. This is due to a number of factors but one of the most obvious to me is that this is the benefit they get from a bike that is very stable which is also shown on the entry phase on the brakes. However the disadvantage of this is that mid corner the motorcycle is slower.

You are correct that once the Ducati reaches higher speeds it clearly has more drag which is why the other bikes are now able to stay within and even close up in the slipstream, however there are only four tracks with straights over 1km, Qatar being one of them.

To answer the question about the Honda engine, we know they are producing more peak horsepower. In addition they have a new exhaust system this year. I think this may be why the engine sounds different as changing the firing order would be a fundamental change and there haven't been any complaints from riders regarding the Honda's engine character, just that it needs more top end performance.

gui22a said:

hmm, I think if it is generating downforce so it's in fact decelerating the air flow, and not accelerating. To create pressure you should slow down the air in the opposite direction you want the force to act (like an air plane wing).

But to be honest I highly doubt Ducati is using that .... to cool the tire.

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Has there been any official statement from Ducati identifing the nature of the device?

Keshav said:

Has there been any official statement from Ducati identifing the nature of the device?

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Only from Petrucci saying it's primary function isn't cooling, but that Gigi won't let him say what it is really for...

I think that the fact that it helps control rear tyre temp is a compound effect of its main purpose, which is to increase rear tyre load.

Keep in mind that Ducati experimented with the rear torque bar all winter but ultimately discarded the idea. This in my mind is a different solution for the same problem. Trying to force the rear tyre into contact with the asphalt to maximise the efficiency of the rear tyre which we know has superior grip to the front.

I earlier interpreted it's purpose the wrong way around. Tyre temp isn't the main focus, load is. But increasing the load has helped with the temperature problem.

Keshav said:

Has there been any official statement from Ducati identifing the nature of the device?

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Nothing for now.

But we get some [unhappy] words from KTM Pit Beirer:

Pit Beirer: Why KTM has protested against Ducati

"Team Manager Mike Leitner and I are going to Tardozzi on Sunday afternoon to tell Pit-walk that we're going to protest if they use the wing in the race," KTM Motorsport Director Pit Beirer said in an interview SPEEDWEEK.com. "And that we probably will not agree on this. He smiled and meant, they are convinced that the part complies with the regulations. We told him, four manufacturers see the other. That's why the protest will happen. "

"This protest is a logical consequence," added Beirer. «We are now accused that we could have said something at the Qatar test. But then you see 1000 new parts from all sorts of manufacturers, and then you look at a part of it more closely and think about what was fabricated there and what it means. We met with the other manufacturers at the Qatar GP and talked about this part. We believe that this wing does not match what we mean by tire cooling or aerodynamics. Four manufacturers have assumed that this part aerodynamically makes a difference. We communicated this to Technical Director Danny Aldridge and asked him to inform Ducati as well. We did not want to be driven with this part. However, Ducati's point of view was clear: they are convinced that they are within the rules. The other manufacturers deny that. You can make a protest only at the race. So we did that. Ducati was aware before Saturday was over that they would face a protest. Nevertheless you drove on this part on Sunday. But we can not be accused, nobody would have said anything, we would have let Ducati run into the open knife. We are not concerned. That Ducati is denied the victory of Dovi. Hopefully Dovi will not lose this victory because he deserved to win. And Ducati with their technical performance just like that. But we want clarity for the future. Otherwise, next comes the rear wing on the hump ... It's about that such aerodynamic excesses are contained in the future. That's what the four manufacturers want. Neither of us is interested in Dovi being deprived of this well-deserved victory. This victory certainly did not arise, because down there now a new plastic part on the swingarm hangs.

Beirer: "Ducati can not blame us for not being forewarned. She wants to portray it as if everyone had shut up, then let Ducati win and subsequently protested. It was not like that. We have made it clear before that if we go with the part, we will make the protest to clarify if that is legal. This zone in the regulations must be clarified. Then in each plant, five people can stop worrying about the next aerodynamic part. It's starting to get a little bit out of hand. This aerodynamic madness has to be stopped a bit. »

"It was definitely not the case that Mike first said on Sunday that we are not against this part," emphasizes Pit Beirer. "We were against it from the beginning and have insisted on a clarification."

The engineers at Honda, Suzuki, KTM and Aprilia are convinced that the faulty wing or rain deflector generates unauthorized downforce or downforce, which is an aerodynamic aid and is not used to cool the tire.

Beirer: "You just have to enter something into a computer model, then you can see where the wind whistles past. If the wind can create pressure surfaces down, then you have downforce, no question. The whole wings, which now hang on the side of the panel, cause something, even though they are only small pieces of plastic. Take a look at a Formula 1 front wing, how many parts it consists of, which all have an influence. But we really do not want to go there. "

Yamaha technician Ramon Forcada said that at Yamaha in Valencia they had mounted similar deflections only in the rain to keep water from the rear tire. "There are all four manufacturers agree that the Yamaha wing was also so worked and all was just for that thought," says Beirer. "The Yamaha part just made sure to get the water out of the tire. That's why you can not compare the two wings. But from me they should also prohibit such a part in the rain. No-one on a racing bike needs all this bells and whistles. We want to find out who he is the best motorcyclist and not who builds the best wings.

Address of this article:

- Mehr bei SPEEDWEEK: Pit Beirer: Warum KTM gegen Ducati protestiert hat/MotoGP SPEEDWEEK

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LoL to the bold part. So what the .... KTM is doing in the series if the only reason is figuring out who is the best motorcyclist?

Motorcycle racing involve mainly two factors: a motorcycle (obvious) and a rider. It's all about the pair. Actually I think we all figured out already who the best rider is (MM?), and the racing is funny also because worst riders can capitalize over his bikes being better and more developed to equalize the race.

They are going to destroy prototype racing this way. The day technology development stops to make room only for the rider, I stop watching bike racing too. That's obvious.