Phillip Island RACE

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Oct 20 2009, 04:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I can see the elbows are down, just says they aren't at their limit to me.
Why do you dispute a rather simple straightforward point? The Fing picture posted of Casey said "elbows down" and they were NOT. I posted a pic where the elbows were actually down. No reference to being on the limit or optimum “style” or “form”.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Oct 20 2009, 05:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>In super banked corners you get the impression that they are really leaned over but it is partially an illusion.

An illusion? It’s a fing picture man. Is it photoshopped? The elbows are down or not. That’s NOT an illusion. Why is this so hard for both of you to understand?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Oct 20 2009, 07:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah see there you go ..... thats mid pack at best MGP type lean. Kinda why I cannot understand the cries of "wait till Spies gets here!" ...... he hasn't exhibited the body language of speed in MGP to me yet. But who knows ........ he now has the opportunity .

I see Spies as near Edwards in style hence I think he'll place around him there somewhere, to start with.

Riders like the top four came up through the ranks in the MGP circus, and have ridden bikes where lean is the thing ( and it seems pretty essential these days, though as Stoner demonstrated at PI both lean and pick up style adaptability may be the thing ). So I kinda wonder about the chance of riders coming from say AMA or WSBK or BSS etc. and competing in MGP.

You seem to be having trouble with this thing called riding “style” and how that may or may not translate into performance. Apparently you are not aware that riders have different styles, and that doesn’t necessarily translate into some illusive perfect optimum form. It appears you have taken Casey’s form and decided everybody needs & must look like him to be “fast”. You’ve now told us several times how Casey not having his elbows down must therefore be the optimum form & lean for maximum speed, yet somebody posted a picture of Rossi with his elbows down, surely he’s not slow. These guys are not dragging their elbows around the track, they put them down on occasion on particular turns if they have that particular style. Its simply a moment captured on film that we are admiring, BUT YOU have erroneously perceived this to be an opportunity for you to point out how ‘wrong’ they are. You continue your absurd understanding of “style” and state that Edwards and Spies have similar style? I guess you mean they are both from Texas, because as far as “style” they cannot be any different. I think you may be having ‘eybra’ trouble, that is, your eyes have trouble communicating with your brain.

We already dedicated a thread to Spies’ chances in GP. You questioning the promotion of Spies to GP and saying you haven't seen him showing any "body language" of speed" could by itself be reason enough to dismiss anything you say as absurd. So he hasn't looked fast to you, oh lord. I'll hold back on this one since your assessment speaks for itself Frankly its just and exercise in speculation, but as far as your “wondering” about people coming from the AMA into GP, I think there has been plenty of successful riders who hailed from the States. Not so many lately, but then again it fairly obvious its very little to do with some particular issue regarding riding ability over a preference by Dorna and its teams to promote from within. Superbikers on decent packages have done well enough to dispel your “wondering”. You put them on .... packages and wonder why their results suck? Hahaha the only thing that sucks around here is the logic of the above posts.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Oct 21 2009, 10:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>MotoGP paddock featuring 11 of 18 riders from those two countries as we'll see in 2010.

This is ridiculous. And the stupid thing is people with a shallow understanding of this sport think these riders are unequivocally the best.

This is why MotoGP has lost allot of its legitimacy as far as I'm concerned. And WSBK has increase in relevance and prestige. People erroneously think that MotoGP has the greatest riders in the world, but that is far from the truth. They have maybe 5, that's it. Some are in WSBK. The problem is the nature and politics of GP. If you're not from the feeder series, you are not gonna make it unless you accomplish something extraordinary somewhere else. 250 riding style doesn’t make better MotoGP riders, it simply makes the transition easier. So they have some success, does this necessarily mean they are better than 1-3 riders of the top WSBK/SS classes? Give them similar equipment and track knowledge and I bet we would see a very different picture than most people think.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Oct 21 2009, 11:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>why did it take 2 paragraphs just to tell berry he's a .... ?
It appears I have lacked your brevity and clarity. Being succinct is not my strong suit compa, I like to waste words to make my point.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Oct 21 2009, 12:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I love WSBK and think guys like Biaggi and Haga could do well on any bike. But what Marco Simoncelli did on the RSV4 says alot about the 250 class and its talent pool. I don't think Spanish and Italians have a genetic predisposition to being good riders. However, their riding culture and wealth of experience give them a huge leg up when it come to opportunity and performance.

Talent has to be developed and it seems like 250's call for wide ranging well honed riding traits that are un paralelled. AMA, BSB, and Aust riders never get that chance and seem worse for it.

TBH, a guy like GayAngeles would be hitting the podium nearly every SBK race. Elias would probably crush WSS. Edwards and JT were double champions. These guys know the tracks and are languishing in GPs.

I'd rather not see midgets ride around, but they do have talent.

I hate it when you rebut me with well-made arguments. I agreed with everything you said, except that, you cited the top 250 guys. Of course they will do well enough in either WSBK or GP. But what about the top WSBK guys on comparable equipment in GP? Edwards isn't exactly "languishing" though Toesland is--this year (he had a better first year). BTW, I suspect given another year he might do better, but we'll never know. Gabor, Takacrashi, Guintoli, Tamada, Nakano, DePuniet, Krashio, etc etc are from 250's right? They haven't exactly set the world ablaze in MotoGP (considering their seat too). That some like Pedros, Rossi, Lorenzo, (250 champs) who happen to come from 250 is not tantamount to saying that being from GP’s lower class must therefore be the pool of best riders--that is the difference in what I'm saying. Half the pool of 250 guys that are promoted to MotoGP do not particularly have success. So what makes us think that a pool of the top WSBK/SS guys might not have similar success? The fact is that 800s are much more similar to 250 than superbikes, there is where I think the difference comes from--NOT the ability of the rider but rather what that rider's skill set has been most familiar with. Think about it this way, do you think the top 250 riders would have dominated Spies in WSBK this year? I hope your answer is no. So does that make them sub par riders? NO. But it does make them unfamiliar with superbikes. Oh, and Simocelli's one off on an Aprillia (shown to be a excellent package, at a place where in particular it shined doesn't make for a season). Take this same logic and apply to toward 250 guys who ended up in superbikes, did they set the world ablaze? Surely they were trained in the best 250 skill set for the class. Have we ever had a 250 rider win a superbike title? Does this make the 250 guys lacking? Of course the best 250 guys have stayed in MotoGP, but considering that they have also had the best seats then its no real wonder why. Basically what I'm saying is that 250 guys are not particularly better riders, simply they are graduated to a similar machine within the same series, something dreadfully difficult for superbikers to adapt to on far inferior seats.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Oct 21 2009, 01:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Obviously there will be some differences.[granted] My opinion is that it will breed a similar style to what is necessary for 250 success. [why, 600 are different] That 250 style has proven successful in MotoGP, it's not the same, but is similar and successful. [so what does this have to do with 600s?] Do I make sense? [not yet] It will be similar in the sense that corner speed will be the key, just like MotoGP. [how is this different than current 600s?] I don't think I'm making sense, let me try again. [ok, i'm listening.]

In my opinion, what Dorna are trying to achieve is make the direct feeder class follow the lines of MotoGP more closely. [yes, but how is this relevant to Moto2 600s vs Wsbk SS 600s?] Although the style used in 250 has proven to be quite successful in transitioning to 800cc MotoGP machines, there are still some major differences in moving from a 250 two stroke to an 800 four stroke.[you already said that in your 1st sentence above.] My belief is that the new 600s will behave in a manner that will allow its riders to transition to MotoGP with more ease. [you already said that in your 2nd & 3rd sentence above.] So to attempt to summarize, the style won't be identical to that used with a 250, but it will be similar as that 250 style has been successful in breeding 800cc riders and I can't believe Dorna would want to go away from that. [you've just repeated this again]

Sorry I'm going in circles here and probably not making sense.

<span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%why

All you said it is will be easier to make the transition several times, but Why?

I’m hanging on every word buddy. I’m also very intrigued at how Wsbk SS 600s will be ‘significantly’ different than Moto2 600s. And you are usually very insightful, so I will be waiting for your third attempt.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Oct 21 2009, 01:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'><span style="color:#008000Dolla, dolla bills ya'll! It was only a matter of time before the feeder classes went four stroke, that's been the plan forever. But by keeping the characteristics of the motorcycles streamlined, Dorna can corner the sponsors. Let's assume you're a potential sponsor but don't quite have the funds to sponsor a MotoGP team. As a sponsor, if you knew that the next up and coming riders were going to be coming through Moto2 (as the blueprint for the series), would you put your money into WSBK or Moto2? This allows relationships to develop with sponsors and younger riders and teams that well could eventually move into MotoGP. Additionally, this formula is not likely to alienate existing sponsors. I'd imagine the sponsors in the series are quite happy with the riders there. If they changed the formula and suddenly Moto2 suited riders from SBK backgrounds, I'm not sure the current sponsors would be too thrilled. This plan presents opportunities to attract new sponsors without jeopardizing existing sponsors.

All true buddy. But I think the point of discussion was WHY might the Moto2 600 skill set would favor MotoGP verses the Wsbk SS 600s. I myself am hopeful we will see more superbiker 600 riders go to MotoGP, as I believe the ranks of MotoGP are not the best riders the World has to offer (but rather the best riders the GP lower classes have to offer--big difference). Ya get me?

EDIT: Thanks for the correction on Tamada, Aust & Arab. Oh and I'm ignoring you guys on the link-goose neck Edwards thing too.