Phillip Island RACE

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Oct 21 2009, 03:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>All true buddy. But I think the point of discussion was WHY might the Moto2 600 skill set would favor MotoGP verses the Wsbk SS 600s. I myself am hopeful we will see more superbiker 600 riders go to MotoGP, as I believe the ranks of MotoGP are not the best riders the World has to offer (but rather the best riders the GP lower classes have to offer--big difference). Ya get me?

EDIT: Thanks for the correction on Tamada, Aust & Arab. Oh and I'm ignoring you guys on the link-goose neck Edwards thing too.
I'm hoping that we see more SS guys make the jump to Moto2. The heavy interest in Crutchlow from Gresini and Tech 3 should be a strong indication that we might see more SS riders moving over. As far as Edwards and the goose neck, you were the first one to discover it, Jum.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Oct 22 2009, 07:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Who do you suppose might win such an event? A GPer or a Superbiker?

Dumb question .... Gper

but you left off another improtant bit that should be in your formula as well so that bias of the "loaded" 1000cc formula is negated ......... they should all then ride 800's

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Oct 22 2009, 03:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Why do you dispute a rather simple straightforward point? The Fing picture posted of Casey said "elbows down" and they were NOT. I posted a pic where the elbows were actually down. No reference to being on the limit or optimum “style” or “form”.



An illusion? It’s a fing picture man. Is it photoshopped? The elbows are down or not. That’s NOT an illusion. Why is this so hard for both of you to understand?



You seem to be having trouble with this thing called riding “style” and how that may or may not translate into performance. Apparently you are not aware that riders have different styles, and that doesn’t necessarily translate into some illusive perfect optimum form. It appears you have taken Casey’s form and decided everybody needs & must look like him to be “fast”. You’ve now told us several times how Casey not having his elbows down must therefore be the optimum form & lean for maximum speed, yet somebody posted a picture of Rossi with his elbows down, surely he’s not slow. These guys are not dragging their elbows around the track, they put them down on occasion on particular turns if they have that particular style. Its simply a moment captured on film that we are admiring, BUT YOU have erroneously perceived this to be an opportunity for you to point out how ‘wrong’ they are. You continue your absurd understanding of “style” and state that Edwards and Spies have similar style? I guess you mean they are both from Texas, because as far as “style” they cannot be any different. I think you may be having ‘eybra’ trouble, that is, your eyes have trouble communicating with your brain.

We already dedicated a thread to Spies’ chances in GP. You questioning the promotion of Spies to GP and saying you haven't seen him showing any "body language" of speed" could by itself be reason enough to dismiss anything you say as absurd. So he hasn't looked fast to you, oh lord. I'll hold back on this one since your assessment speaks for itself Frankly its just and exercise in speculation, but as far as your “wondering” about people coming from the AMA into GP, I think there has been plenty of successful riders who hailed from the States. Not so many lately, but then again it fairly obvious its very little to do with some particular issue regarding riding ability over a preference by Dorna and its teams to promote from within. Superbikers on decent packages have done well enough to dispel your “wondering”. You put them on .... packages and wonder why their results suck? Hahaha the only thing that sucks around here is the logic of the above posts.


No I'm fine with "style" were it something called "freestyle-motogp" and the outcome was for the best look not speed ...... but its not, and there is this little thing called "physics" I more think is important. And that bummer thing called physics dictates that usually a higher lean angle means ...... faster round the corner.

You seem to think I give a bugger whether the riders elbow is in or out? .... couldn't give two hoots ...... what matters is how far they are leaned, and when you look at the top 4 in MGP lately they are at such an angle that there upper body is hugging the curb. Ain't no room to put your elbow anywhere when they are at that angle .... but I will argue that that is where "physics" becomes "style"

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Oct 22 2009, 08:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ok. lets forget about the first point, it seems you want to talk about lean angle.


Answer this question, are the riders trying to get the most lean or trying to get the least lean in negotiating a corner? (I know the answer, but want to know if you do).


the lean they are getting is incidental ..... this is MGP .... they are trying to get one thing ........... speed

Whether they are digging a trench with their elbow , or wearing girls undies, or have stuck a jalapeno up their ... never mind ........ they do whatever they do because of speed. Sure it looks good but it is essentially the body language of speed, or perhaps better put, the body language "necessitated by speed" or even "caused by speed".

if your leg or elbow is stuck out the side like a wounded duck ....... then you aren't running MGP winning "physics" yet.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Oct 21 2009, 11:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> the lean they are getting is incidental ..... this is MGP .... they are trying to get one thing ........... speed

Whether they are digging a trench with their elbow , or wearing girls undies, or have stuck a jalapeno up their ... never mind ........ they do whatever they do because of speed. Sure it looks good but it is essentially the body language of speed, or perhaps better put, the body language "necessitated by speed" or even "caused by speed".

if your leg or elbow is stuck out the side like a wounded duck ....... then you aren't running MGP winning "physics" yet.
you keep banging on about physics berry but you miss the phssics of riding a motorcycle around corners
the faster you rider round a corner the more lean angle you need, thats why they switched to 16.5" tyres from 17 because it gave them more contact area in the lean angle because of the faster corner speeds with the 800's. take ya stoner fanboy goggles off and read the .... your spouting

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Oct 22 2009, 12:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> Thanks compa, you hit nail on the head, and really, its fairly common knowledge though, as they say its not a common virtue to have it.

FerryMachine, your reply reveals what you know about "physics" in relation to motorcycles negotiating a turn. They are trying to achieve the greatest speed with the least amount of lean, hence them hanging off the bike. They are NOT trying to get more lean, they could do that no problem to the point of crashing, the trick is to get the maximum speed with the least lean while maintaining the tires on the tarmac. They are trying to keep the thing upright as much as possible while maximizing the speed.

Have you noticed they put a knee out and down? Well that is not for "style" that is mainly for them to gage the lean. They don't want too much lean Barry, so they put something out to measure it. It appears some riders may be using an elbow for that. (Oh wait, that's stupid "body language").
maybe this is the berry "body language race style" fastest way round the track

Rog. you ....... .... you are saying the same as me


Jumkie you are just arguing for the sake of hearing keys click ........ thats a load of tripe In MGP in the modern era ..... they stick a lot better than the old days.

If he starts riding well in MGP, I bet you see Spies as "no elbows" a few times soon.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Oct 21 2009, 07:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ah i see, the laws of physics no longer apply in MotoGP because its the modern era of sticky tires.

Im so glad u provide much needed comic relief.
hey jum, have you seen those bing.com commercials? thats what berry reminds me of. i'd post one but i cant anymore.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Oct 22 2009, 12:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> Thanks compa, you hit nail on the head, and really, its fairly common knowledge though, as they say its not a common virtue to have it.

FerryMachine, your reply reveals what you know about "physics" in relation to motorcycles negotiating a turn. They are trying to achieve the greatest speed with the least amount of lean, hence them hanging off the bike. They are NOT trying to get more lean, they could do that no problem to the point of crashing, the trick is to get the maximum speed with the least lean while maintaining the tires on the tarmac. They are trying to keep the thing upright as much as possible while maximizing the speed.

Have you noticed they put a knee out and down? Well that is not for "style" that is mainly for them to gage the lean. They don't want too much lean Barry, so they put something out to measure it. It appears some riders may be using an elbow for that. (Oh wait, that's stupid "body language").
I wouldn't presume to enter this discussion from the physics point of view, let alone from a track riding perspective, but the really cool thing for me as whoever posted the casey picture said when he posted is how tucked both were.

Everything from Jumkie is to defend riders from USA. As Hayden is languishing from 2006, Jumkie attacks everyone to defend Hayden: Rossi, Stoner, Pedro, Lorenzo... and the Jumkie's latest hope is Spies. Then he now state that WSBK guys is as talented as MotoGP guys.

MotoGP is the miracle of 2 wheels motosport so it's clear that most people consider that MotoGP guys are considered better by than guys from any other series. In the last 10 years there are many evidence: MotoGP aged and jobless riders go to WSBK and doing well. In contrast every WSBK world champ want to race in MotoGP. That's the fact.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Oct 21 2009, 07:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I hate it when you rebut me with well-made arguments. I agreed with everything you said, except that, you cited the top 250 guys. Of course they will do well enough in either WSBK or GP. But what about the top WSBK guys on comparable equipment in GP? Edwards isn't exactly "languishing" though Toesland is--this year (he had a better first year). BTW, I suspect given another year he might do better, but we'll never know. Gabor, Takacrashi, Guintoli, Tamada, Nakano, DePuniet, Krashio, etc etc are from 250's right? They haven't exactly set the world ablaze in MotoGP (considering their seat too). That some like Pedros, Rossi, Lorenzo, (250 champs) who happen to come from 250 is not tantamount to saying that being from GP's lower class must therefore be the pool of best riders--that is the difference in what I'm saying. Half the pool of 250 guys that are promoted to MotoGP do not particularly have success. So what makes us think that a pool of the top WSBK/SS guys might not have similar success? The fact is that 800s are much more similar to 250 than superbikes, there is where I think the difference comes from--NOT the ability of the rider but rather what that rider's skill set has been most familiar with. Think about it this way, do you think the top 250 riders would have dominated Spies in WSBK this year? I hope your answer is no. So does that make them sub par riders? NO. But it does make them unfamiliar with superbikes. Oh, and Simocelli's one off on an Aprillia (shown to be a excellent package, at a place where in particular it shined doesn't make for a season). Take this same logic and apply to toward 250 guys who ended up in superbikes, did they set the world ablaze? Surely they were trained in the best 250 skill set for the class. Have we ever had a 250 rider win a superbike title? Does this make the 250 guys lacking? Of course the best 250 guys have stayed in MotoGP, but considering that they have also had the best seats then its no real wonder why. Basically what I'm saying is that 250 guys are not particularly better riders, simply they are graduated to a similar machine within the same series, something dreadfully difficult for superbikers to adapt to on far inferior seats.

In the first posted pics of Stoner and Rossi both were in fairly banked corners. You have to subtract the angle of the corner to get the true lean angle which is less than it looks...which is obvious and like Rog stated the opposite is true with off camber corners. Think barrel racing and you'll get it. They may be horizontal to the ground but they are perpendicular to the surface which means they aren't leaning at all.

Even with all the banking the lean angle can only be described as startling. Then to drift on top of that is just superhuman no matter who does it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Oct 22 2009, 09:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ah i see, the laws of physics no longer apply in MotoGP because its the modern era of sticky tires.

Im so glad u provide much needed comic relief.

Good to see you laid off the "click clack"!!

Once more for the dummies .......

In the modern era the top guys are leaning ( bike lean angle ) so much , on some corners, that they don't seem to ave much room to stick arms, legs, noses, necks, elbows, any body paraphernalia ... out......







these guys who come into MGP from other series don't seem to have that angle yet:


The elbows out and knees out style is a thing disappearing at the top of MGP on many a corner.

Its not enough to say they don't do knees out elbows out, bike upright when needed. MGP riders have the skills of WSBK riders etc:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (two-stroke @ Oct 19 2009, 12:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'><object width="425" height="350<param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/F34pZnbpOu0</param><param name="wmode" value="transparent</param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/F34pZnbpOu0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350</embed></object>
but, its just that modern MGP bikes lean ( and stick ) these days ( could be tyres could be 800's could be they just are amazing machines). You don't see it in many other formulas where the lea angle is so great ( insane as it is often described these days ). So is it getting more difficult for riders from other series to come in and dominate?

Are you saying 990's leaned to the extent of the 800's Jumkie?

Are you saying WSBK machines do?

what are you saying? ....... apart from click clack click clack

Great pics Barry! I know their not yours but they're nice to see.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (levigarrett @ Oct 22 2009, 01:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Great pics Barry! I know their not yours but they're nice to see.


I know they are great, don't really care that they aren't mine they are all public domain ( I'd be proud of them too ) ..... I enjoyed putting that post together

Barry all your post should be like that. Less words and more awesome pics

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Oct 22 2009, 05:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I know they are great, don't really care that they aren't mine they are all public domain ( I'd be proud of them too ) ..... I enjoyed putting that post together
nice pics barry, awesome spectacle...

But.

you post pics of 800s cranked over at extreme angles and then say that "these guys who come into MGP from other series don't seem to have that angle yet:" and back this up by showing a pic of Spies leant over, knee and elbow out, on a GSX-R1000! show him riding an 800 and then see just if hes got the angle yet or not. never mind the difference in tyre performance between proto b'stones and control dunlops....