Pedrosa's attitude

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Jan 10 2007, 11:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But god, I hate agreeing with Jumkie!!!!!!

Are you saying I'm god?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Jan 10 2007, 08:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Are you saying I'm god?

No, your names not Rossi

pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Jan 10 2007, 12:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No, your names not Rossi

pete

Ok lets get back on topic. Who else thinks Pedrosa's a jerk? Bring it...

No way, i think Pedrosa is getting about as many things right as a rookie could ever expect to. HIs attitude maybe questionablle at times, but i think it reflects a rider whos dedicated approach to winning the world title will not be interupted now will his charge be stopped untill he has achieved the title. Mentally speaking i thing hes one of hte toughest guys out there, along with Rossi (of course), Hayden, and Capirossi.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 10 2007, 01:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Mentally speaking i thing hes one of hte toughest guys out there, along with Rossi (of course), Hayden, and Capirossi.

You forgot Melandri. Or do you think he's soft?

I think hes one of the most hardcore guys out there, i mean the way he handles all the injuries he seems to get and the way he will battle anyone to the death. But on the weekends when he doesnt find a great setup or things dont work out ok, i thought his performances were a little disapointing, something i put down to a mental issue. Nicly would grit his teath, bare it and end up on the podium.

Melandri to me comes accross like the new Kevin Schwantz, SERIOUSLY fast, slightly prone to crashing and hurting himself, massively entertaining and a hardcore fighter, but just isnt quite stong enough on his "bad days"

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 10 2007, 01:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think hes one of the most hardcore guys out there

Melandri to me comes accross like the new Kevin Schwantz, SERIOUSLY fast,

Certainly. He is a bright spot in MotoGP. A very decent human been. My best friend is a fan of his and he thinks he's a little soft, but I totally disagree. He couldn't be soft and dice it up with Rossi and Pedrosa as I saw this year. And the way he battled back from those injuries is really commendable. I think since he is usually a smiling guy, my friend mistakes this for softness. We had the pleasure of meeting him at Laguna when he came in third. A genuine and down to Earth person.

Melandri is one of the guys that have improved every year from the lower classes to the premier class. As I recall, his last three years in 250s he went 5,3,then won the title (in 125 he went 3,2 and would have won the title but opted to try his luck on 250s). But the same trend has followed in the premier class. His first year he was 15th, the 12th, and in 05 was runner up to the great Rossi.) He would have been on pace to contend for the championship had the Catalunya disaster not happened. Yet despite that managed a great 4th in overall points.

I like Marco a great deal. I’m not so sure I’m a fan, but maybe I am. After all, I painted my bike as a MotoGP replica of his Spiderman bike he rode in Portugal in 04. So this may make me a fan. Though I like him alot, I would never compare him to Kevin Schwantz.

As far as Pedrosa, I agree, he deserved rookie of the year. But I still don't like the fella.

I think a lot of people have found ot very easy to dislike Pedrosa, even without the Portugal thing, and mostly i think he is misunderstood.

I mean he gets this rep for being a robot, but he has clearly shown he is human, making a few mistakes and all. But mostly i think he is misunderstood about his expression of emossion, i mean i believe that his mannor in the estoril gravel trap was not him blaming Hayden, but him hugely disapointed/angry that he was no longer able ot win the title, even though his chances previously had been slim. But a true champion would never give up or accept that he couldnt do it. Plus he probably felt he could have won that race.

Another overlooked quality about pedrosa has been his incredible aggressive riding and huge ability to go head to head with other riders and battle, something which was seen in his 250cc years and lost alittle this year(hes busy learning remember), and then there is the emotions he showed when he won his 125cc title, being reduced to tears of joy. None of this seems to be the actions of a "robot" to me.

Anyway i'm not here to Force you into liking my chosen riders, but at least we can agree that Melandri is awesome. And i still feel his riding and attitude has many parallels to Schwantz', but i also feel he is one of the most overrated, and one of the least complete of all the legendary riders out there, despite the fact that he was blindingly fast and untouchable on his better days (not unlike Marco).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 10 2007, 10:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think a lot of people have found ot very easy to dislike Pedrosa, even without the Portugal thing, and mostly i think he is misunderstood.

I mean he gets this rep for being a robot, but he has clearly shown he is human, making a few mistakes and all. But mostly i think he is misunderstood about his expression of emossion, i mean i believe that his mannor in the estoril gravel trap was not him blaming Hayden, but him hugely disapointed/angry that he was no longer able ot win the title, even though his chances previously had been slim. But a true champion would never give up or accept that he couldnt do it. Plus he probably felt he could have won that race.

Another overlooked quality about pedrosa has been his incredible aggressive riding and huge ability to go head to head with other riders and battle, something which was seen in his 250cc years and lost alittle this year(hes busy learning remember), and then there is the emotions he showed when he won his 125cc title, being reduced to tears of joy. None of this seems to be the actions of a "robot" to me.

Anyway i'm not here to Force you into liking my chosen riders, but at least we can agree that Melandri is awesome. And i still feel his riding and attitude has many parallels to Schwantz', but i also feel he is one of the most overrated, and one of the least complete of all the legendary riders out there, despite the fact that he was blindingly fast and untouchable on his better days (not unlike Marco).

Pedrosa has the personality of a car battery, but the little bugger can ride. Period.

Hayden fans are always gonna have a pop at the guy for "that" incident, but, he's not the first guy to do it and wont be the last. As I said at the time, if Hayden hadn't won the title, it wouldnt because of Pedrosa, it would be because he didnt have enough points. But as we all know he did get enough points and he did win the title.

I know it's hard to swallow, but Pedrosa will be the chosen one because of his track record, because it's more impressive (more wins etc) than Haydens.

Honda know that to beat Rossi more than one season is going to take a guy who will take the fight to him, and it looks a lot more like Pedrosa than Hayden that will do that.

If I was a huge Hayden fan, I'd be annoyed at him, and probably think he was a jerk too. But, I'm not so I'm looking from the outside.

Damon Hill and Jaque Villenauve both won the F1 title when the Ferrari was ...., as did Mika Hakkinen. However, Schumacher was the one who racked up the most titles, and kicked these guys arses on occasion, even when the Ferrari was .....

That is the difference between Rossi and Schumi and the other guys.

Pete

I dont think Dani is quite that dull, but he clearly isnt as charismatic as plenty of other riders. He isnt quite the same PR star and generally entertaining personality of Rossi, who is one of the best there has ever been at it. It is near impossible not to love him.

Perhaps Dani wont become a mega star bike racer with thousands of fans waiting for his next witty remark. But he is still a racer and a brilliant rider, and i appreciate that above all else, afterall i turn on the tv to see a bike race, not a popularity contest.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 10 2007, 10:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>he is still a racer and a brilliant rider, and i appreciate that above all else, afterall i turn on the tv to see a bike race, not a popularity contest.

me too

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 10 2007, 02:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i still feel his riding and attitude has many parallels to Schwantz', but i also feel he is one of the most overrated, and one of the least complete of all the legendary riders

Wow. Tom, I humbly and respectfully, but completely disagree. I can’t imagine anybody with substantial knowledge of his long and illustrious career saying Kevin Schwantz is “overrated”. If ever there was a word to describe Schwantz, I think “underrated” would be appropriate. I don’t think I have enough space to express why I think saying he’s “overrated” is a mistake. But I’ll be brief.

Kevin Schwantz is the top 6 all-time ever GP winner (one more than the great multiple champ Wayne Rainey). His illustrious career span two decades (80s & 90s) during a time that I could easily argue that was the most competitive field ever. Between 1988 to 1994, he only once was out of the top 4! In all those years, he was always the top Suzuki (which is significant as I’ll explain later) one of those years (1989) he had more wins (6) than the champ (Eddie Lawson) and the runner up spot (Wayne Rainey), incidentally both of which are multiple title winners. Between 1989 to 91, he scored no less than 5 wins a season. During every full season he had, he scored multiple wins! Now think about that for a moment; (except injured in 92, where he still scored a win). Moreover, he did all this on a Suzuki! (While Lawson on the mighty Honda and Rainey on the equally powerful Yamaha!) Oh did I mention Schwantz raced against these riders (maybe you may recognize a few of them): Mick Doohan, Wayne Gardner, Freddie Spencer, John Kocinski, Randy Mamola, and Alex Criville (by the way, only one person in that list didn’t win a world title, Mamola, however has the most wins of any non-champ). So much is made about machinery and equipment, and I agree; so when Schwantz won the title in 1993, he did so on a Suzuki; however, the interesting fact is that it had not been for 10 years that Suzuki had won a title and it wasn’t for another 6 years that Suzuki would win a title again until Kenny Roberts Jr. did it at the turn of the millennium in 2000! Honda and Yamaha traded championship titles for 16 years while Suzuki was a serious liability of equipment in Schwantz era.

Believe me, I could go on and on, but these are just a few things that stand out. I could get into all the behind-the-scene stuff regarding equipment, management, development, and funding, that were also disadvantages, but we would be here all day. When somebody says a rider is “overrated” you are saying that he was hyped up, undeserving of his accomplishments, perhaps over glorified. The suggestion is that his accomplishments were not in par with his contemporaries. That is to say, compared to the guys he raced with, he lacked parity. But as you can see, and considering his performance record and equipment, nothing could be farther from the truth. He is absolutely not “overrated”. You cut me deep when you said that, but if you still think so, I’m all ears to hear the reasons why…..

Brilliant pos dude, love to see how other people see things!!

My thing is, the term "overrated" is not suggesting that Kevin was not a great rider, its just that he is always mentioned in the list that contains the names Rainey doohan and lawson. and i feel that all of those riders were better than he was.

I think lawsons 89 title riding an awful handling honda, changing the chassis constantly and developing the bike as he went was hugely impressive, and although Schwantz often won more races than the guys he was riding with, he also laked their consistency (perhaps he was just taking more risks) and i feel that makes him a less complete rider, a point indicated by his single world championship, compared to 5, 4 and 3 titles of the guys i mentioed earlier (not trying to suggest that number of championships alone make a rider great).

I also think that its worth looking at how u mentioned Kevin being both on an inferior bike and way ahead of his teamates, i could point out that doohan was partnered in the earlier years by Gardner, yet another world champ, and Rainey by Lawson and then Kocinski, a multiple 250 champ and mentor of king kenny, a higher calibre of rider to the seond suzuki riders. And perhaps if kevin could have kept himself out of the gravel traps a little more, he would have been fit enough to develop a superior bike. I know what ifs are a waste of time, thats justmy way of illustrating my point about his potential shortcomings.

Dont get me wrong, i do think Kevin is one of the best riders there has been, and i love to watch him ride. I just feel like his name gets thrown around a lot as a great above the others because he was spectacular and exciting. But i consider steady eddy and the rest to actually be better.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Jan 11 2007, 08:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Honda know that to beat Rossi more than one season is going to take a guy who will take the fight to him, and it looks a lot more like Pedrosa than Hayden that will do that.

I'm not sure I agree. Maybe it was just because Pedrosa was in his rookie season, but Hayden seemed much more capable of mixing it with Rossi than Pedrosa did. I think Pedrosa is an extremely talented rider and I think the Pig could be a reason he appears so introverted ("Don't trust the world, Dani, just listen to me") If I recall there was only one Pedrosa vs. Rossi battle this season, I think at Brno. (Alcahol is erasing my memories of the season) And quite Franky, Pedrosa's teeth didn't seem sharp enough to cut it with Rossi. Sure Hayden didn't win one on ones with Rossi, but who did? My point is Hayden seems more capable of fighting Rossi on the track. If Pedrosa can avoid these battles, he stands a better chance, but not only is that impossible, it's weak. Dani's gotta toughen up if the wants to take it to Rossi. The 800s and a year of experience should work in his favour, but if I was HRC, I wouldn't ignore Hayden like they did so much this year.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 10 2007, 04:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>its just that he is always mentioned in the list that contains the names Rainey doohan and lawson. and i feel that all of those riders were better than he was.

although Schwantz often won more races than the guys he was riding with, he also laked their consistency (perhaps he was just taking more risks)

and i feel that makes him a less complete rider, a point indicated by his single world championship, compared to 5, 4 and 3 titles of the guys i mentioed earlier

I just feel like his name gets thrown around a lot as a great above the others because he was spectacular and exciting. But i consider steady eddy and the rest to actually be better.
Thanks for the well thought out response. I’m glad you didn’t limit it to a one liner.

Well I guess we just totally disagree.

Schwantz is mentioned among these riders because he was their equal if not more. (Let me ask you something, if there were two Rossi’s equally good, but one is on the Honda/Yamaha, and the other clone is on the Suzuki, how many championships would the Rossi on the Suzuki win?)

Let me ask you to analyze this: Who really did Doohan beat? Make a list for me. Are any of those on the same list as those that challenged Schwantz during his string of 5 plus wins and in the prime of their racing career?

Lacked consistency? Uhm, I think he was the posterchild of consistency. But he was doing it on an inferior machine. Did you not notice the fact that within a 16 year span, only once did a Suzuki win, and it was ridden by Schwantz.

You said that perhaps he was taking more risks and so perhaps he was less of a complete rider; interesting, it seems to be the consensus that that’s why Hayden wasn’t very much accepted after winning the championship this year. (may not be your opinion though since you seem lto be such a level headed person)

Schwantz rode in the shadow of Rainey and Lawson, both of which were on superior bikes. So I ask you again to ponder the thought, if we had two cloned Rossi’s which one would have won more championships?; the one on the Yamaha/Honda combo or the one on the Suzuki? If they are cloned, which one is better??? Rossi-1 or Rossi-2? That’s how I see it with the comparisons to Rainey/Lawson vs. Schwantz. (Do you get my point?)

His name is thrown around because I think it’s recognized that he is worthly of mention as one of the greats that ever lived, which is what I was saying about his career. But hey, that’s just little old me, giving my humble and respectful opinion.

Having read (and enjoyed) your posts i have come to one conclusion. Neither of us will be convinced by the other, and i dont feel like i have much more to say about the matter.

But i would like to question your suggestion that he was the posterchild of consistency. Kevin had way too many crashes, and poor results, a point strengthened by being able to finish below rainey in a championship having won less races.

the place i think we truly wont see eye to eye is how much difference is made to these riders achievements by the bikes ridden at the time. and we could talk about that for hours, either here in this Dani Pedrosa thread or some other time, no doubt it will come up again. but i just feel like The yamaha particularly was not massively superior, all manufacturers ha their troubles, and relied on the development skills of their riders to move foreward.

As side notes;

- dont get me started on Rossi fans pretending to be bike racing fans and calling Hayden a lesser chamion, enough has been said and i dont have time for those people anymore.

- Are you one of the people who considers doohan to be less of a great then the numbers suggest due to his weaker competition? Maybe we can talk about that some time. I'm guessing you'd puthis early 92 season dominance mostly down to the big bang motor, and tell me that Rainey woulda had him beat if he was able to continue racing?

For me, discussing the old riders never gets boring, there can be no right answer, and no, lets just wait and see resolution. It makes for great discussions.

My 2 cents......
Basically most people here thinks that Dani is a very talented rider but many doesn't like his attitute. But like Tom, I care more about the rider's riding skill rather than his personality. To me, Dani is a quiet person who lacks the skill of expressing himself well, and thus became the victim of misinterpretation by most people. I find Dani such a joy to watch, unlike Hayden who bores me most of the time (except the time when Colin and him were fighting for the first place, resulting in Colin's crashing). I wouldn't say Nicky is not worthy of the Championship because that term seems ridiculous to me. I find it exciting when the riders, namely Loris, Marco and that one-off Elias, had the guts to challenge Rossi at the front.
About Puig, I think that Dani had to respect the man who get him to where he is today. Puig is like a father figure to him, guiding him all through his career. About the Estoril incident, Dani didn't seem to think like Puig. He went to Hayden's garage to apologize when the latter had cooled down. He even rendered his help on their final race. So I don't think Puig had an influence on Dani's character. He just respected the man who gave him the chance to ride professionally.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Jan 10 2007, 01:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>it was were the clutch was located on hayden's bike that caused the problem. unlike pedders who was on the standard rcv, hayden's evo bike had the clutch located internaly which caused the problems. to much heat. if my memory serves me correct.

That is true, but also according to the book MotoGP Technology and another GP book I read.. Hayden's style of entering into the corner, plays a role to the lifespan of the clutch during the race.. the thing you talked about starts the wear during the fast start of the race, which burns the clutch..

HRC is thinking that the clutch is more Hayden than HRC (duh!) and they are sticking to that plan and they are bringing most of the evo parts towards the new RC212V... Their philosophy that the new 800 rides like a 250 so they are designing the bike to fit 250 style riders... Hayden's style while amazing and cool is now considered old school racing style by many ppl on the paddock.. So I really don't know how HRC is going to develop two bikes in the new 800... one for Hayden and the other for Pedrosa, Melandri, Elias, Nakano, and future HRC riders from the 250s

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChemiKaze @ Jan 11 2007, 06:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So I really don't know how HRC is going to develop two bikes in the new 800... one for Hayden and the other for Pedrosa, Melandri, Elias, Nakano, and future HRC riders from the 250s

They just won't - Hayden WILL have to change his riding style.

Honda is never wrong