Rossi's Legacy Tainted

MigsAngel · Sep 21, 2012

bill88 said:
the only way to become better at chess for example, is to play with better and more experienced players than you. and then one day surpass them

i believe eventually the young boys in moto2 will get even better than dani/casey/jorge that have become faster than valentino... its just natural

And so arrives Mark Marquez!

cliche guevara · Sep 21, 2012

bill88 said:
well he beat stoner and even lorenzo with same equipment, and he was older too..

1.he didn't beat stoner on the same equipment.unless we're talking a few select races in 2007 and the podium in le mans this year. the whole reason for this stoner vs rossi worm can is precisely that

2. even now hes not old. in my opinion a 30 year old is just as in good shape if he takes care of himself (which these top level atheletes surely do) as a 25 year old. i'll let the age excuse count when he's in his late 30s but definately not next year.rossi vs lorenzo 2013 will be epic

michaelm · Sep 21, 2012

cliché guevara said:
1.he didn't beat stoner on the same equipment.unless we're talking a few select races in 2007 and the podium in le mans this year. the whole reason for this stoner vs rossi worm can is precisely that

2. even now hes not old. in my opinion a 30 year old is just as in good shape if he takes care of himself (which these top level atheletes surely do) as a 25 year old. i'll let the age excuse count when he's in his late 30s but definately not next year.rossi vs lorenzo 2013 will be epic

Lots of km on the odometer though. Stoner is done already at 26 or whatever. Listen to what mick doohan said. Staying at the absolute pinnacle of gp bike racing for more than a decade is the trick, one mick didn't manage himself.

How many times do we have to have this conversation? Rossi's legacy can't be tainted, end of story. Doesn't mean the achievements of other are negligible though. Logically, I would have thought stoner's and lorenzo's achievements are actually the greater for being in competition against valentino.

cliche guevara · Sep 21, 2012

difference is though that doohan was severly injured before 1999 and didn't seem to fullfill himself as a person in motogp whereas i can imagine that if he would stay fit valentino would ride and race for the rest of his life

you don't need to argue with me over this whole tainted legacy thing, i totally agree with you

it was just a thought that popped up as to why many think his legacy would be tainted,and thats as i explained only because of a certain hype that surrounded him until 2011

Mick D · Sep 21, 2012

Jumkie said:
Thats what happens when you have to keep up the pace, as opposed to when your only worry is staying ahead of the first CRTs, which is the normal circumstance for VR. Ah, what a difference of 'having the benefit of set up while others did not' and actually trying makes.

So Jumkie's dropping the line in the water... Since Vale has had the benefit of best teams, set ups and sns's since his infancy he has never actually had to try or demonstrate an actual ability to ride - literally you or I coulda done it, all it takes is the right set up! Any bites?

J4rn0 · Sep 21, 2012

Stoner is not only faster than Rossi, he is (so far) consistently faster than anybody else on two wheels. And he can be fast even on less-than-perfect bikes, just like Hailwood once was. This is it.

Then as we can see, being the fastest (for a certain period as all these things are time-related and pass pretty quick) doesn't automatically mean you win a string of titles. Beyond the riding skills also motivation, health, hunger, luck, business all play a role in the formation of an Ago or Doohan or Rossi.

But I am glad to have seen Stoner racing with my own eyes.

I think those who doubted Stoner in 2007 had never seen him physically, from the track side. The first time I saw him he was still riding a 125 at Mugello and he was already noticeable. He was barely beaten by a certain Simoncelli at the checkered flag -- not for a podium though, I think they both arrived way behind the top ten in a race won by Lucio Cecchinello.

Think that at that same time Rossi was dominating MotoGP -- third title in a row, and preparing his Yamaha switch. That gives one a sense of generational perspective when speaking about these riders.

povol · Sep 21, 2012

michaelm said:
Lots of km on the odometer though. Stoner is done already at 26 or whatever. Listen to what mick doohan said. Staying at the absolute pinnacle of gp bike racing for more than a decade is the trick, one mick didn't manage himself.

How many times do we have to have this conversation? Rossi's legacy can't be tainted, end of story. Doesn't mean the achievements of other are negligible though. Logically, I would have thought stoner's and lorenzo's achievements are actually the greater for being in competition against valentino.

Michael, all you have to do is look around and listen, to know that statement is incorrect. Maybe his legacy will never be tainted to the cult type members of his fan club, BUT, there are many many GP fans, like me, who now question the accolades and title of GOAT. Instead of seeing him as the GOAT, many recognize him now as one of the greatest. After he had won 5 straight, i was in the camp that he was the best i had seen, then, after an infusion of talent in the mid 2000's, it was obvious that he had racked up gaudy numbers against mediocre competition. Back in the day, how many times did you hear, " You could put Rossi on a Vespa and he would win the title" . Of course that was said jokingly, but the message was, Rossi would win on any bike on the grid. Thats how good we thought he was, that has been debunked, which has tainted his legacy.

michaelm · Sep 21, 2012

povol said:
Michael, all you have to do is look around and listen, to know that statement is incorrect. Maybe his legacy will never be tainted to the cult type members of his fan club, BUT, there are many many GP fans, like me, who now question the accolades and title of GOAT. Instead of seeing him as the GOAT, many recognize him now as one of the greatest. After he had won 5 straight, i was in the camp that he was the best i had seen, then, after an infusion of talent in the mid 2000's, it was obvious that he had racked up gaudy numbers against mediocre competition. Back in the day, how many times did you hear, " You could put Rossi on a Vespa and he would win the title" . Of course that was said jokingly, but the message was, Rossi would win on any bike on the grid. Thats how good we thought he was, that has been debunked, which has tainted his legacy.

I have never been into all the GOAT stuff anyway. My perspective is rather the opposite, there are other riders who are also great, lawson, rainey and doohan in particular since I have been following the sport, but rossi was and remains great.

bill88 · Sep 21, 2012

cliché guevara said:
1.he didn't beat stoner on the same equipment.unless we're talking a few select races in 2007 and the podium in le mans this year. the whole reason for this stoner vs rossi worm can is precisely that

2. even now hes not old. in my opinion a 30 year old is just as in good shape if he takes care of himself (which these top level atheletes surely do) as a 25 year old. i'll let the age excuse count when he's in his late 30s but definately not next year.rossi vs lorenzo 2013 will be epic

1.i was talking about lorenzo

2.its not about age only. yes at 34 years you re not old. but having already lots of money, one-two injuries, and some championships, you re not as motivated as you were 8 years before. a wolf can lead a pack until a younger and stronger shows up.

thedeal · Sep 21, 2012

J4rn0 said:
Stoner is not only faster than Rossi, he is (so far) consistently faster than anybody else on two wheels. And he can be fast even on less-than-perfect bikes, just like Hailwood once was. This is it.

Then as we can see, being the fastest (for a certain period as all these things are time-related and pass pretty quick) doesn't automatically mean you win a string of titles. Beyond the riding skills also motivation, health, hunger, luck, business all play a role in the formation of an Ago or Doohan or Rossi.

But I am glad to have seen Stoner racing with my own eyes.

I think those who doubted Stoner in 2007 had never seen him physically, from the track side. The first time I saw him he was still riding a 125 at Mugello and he was already noticeable. He was barely beaten by a certain Simoncelli at the checkered flag -- not for a podium though, I think they both arrived way behind the top ten in a race won by Lucio Cecchinello.

Think that at that same time Rossi was dominating MotoGP -- third title in a row, and preparing his Yamaha switch. That gives one a sense of generational perspective when speaking about these riders.

Now you are talking about the real GOAT when you mention Mike,i honestly think Stoner is cut from the same cloth,Rossi has skills and records to die for but when Casey is on it he is the fastest on the planet very much like Hailwood.

thedeal · Sep 21, 2012

bill88 said:
1.i was talking about lorenzo

2.its not about age only. yes at 34 years you re not old. but having already lots of money, one-two injuries, and some championships, you re not as motivated as you were 8 years before. a wolf can lead a pack until a younger and stronger shows up.

100% true.

povol · Sep 21, 2012

michaelm said:
I have never been into all the GOAT stuff anyway. My perspective is rather the opposite, there are other riders who are also great, lawson, rainey and doohan in particular since I have been following the sport, but rossi was and remains great.

But GOAT is, or was his legacy. I too think he is great, just not the greatest.

Ngads · Sep 21, 2012

povol said:
But GOAT is, or was his legacy. I too think he is great, just not the greatest.

IMO: If he can win another title before he retires, his "goat legacy" will be back, at least in most peoples minds. Another title win will have people forgetting about his time ducati

povol · Sep 21, 2012

Ngads said:
IMO: If he can win another title before he retires, his "goat legacy" will be back, at least in most peoples minds. Another title win will have people forgetting about his time ducati

Since Stoner is leaving the game, he is just one Lorenzo injury away from winning a title.

thedeal · Sep 21, 2012

povol said:
Since Stoner is leaving the game, he is just one Lorenzo injury away from winning a title.

Agreed.

Bunyip · Sep 21, 2012

michaelm said:
Lots of km on the odometer though. Stoner is done already at 26 or whatever. Listen to what mick doohan said. Staying at the absolute pinnacle of gp bike racing for more than a decade is the trick, one mick didn't manage himself.

How many times do we have to have this conversation? Rossi's legacy can't be tainted, end of story. Doesn't mean the achievements of other are negligible though. Logically, I would have thought stoner's and lorenzo's achievements are actually the greater for being in competition against valentino.

Very dismissive. There,s that arrogance creeping back Michael. And you are essentially criticising me by saying that.

Bunyip · Sep 21, 2012

povol said:
Michael, all you have to do is look around and listen, to know that statement is incorrect. Maybe his legacy will never be tainted to the cult type members of his fan club, BUT, there are many many GP fans, like me, who now question the accolades and title of GOAT. Instead of seeing him as the GOAT, many recognize him now as one of the greatest. After he had won 5 straight, i was in the camp that he was the best i had seen, then, after an infusion of talent in the mid 2000's, it was obvious that he had racked up gaudy numbers against mediocre competition. Back in the day, how many times did you hear, " You could put Rossi on a Vespa and he would win the title" . Of course that was said jokingly, but the message was, Rossi would win on any bike on the grid. Thats how good we thought he was, that has been debunked, which has tainted his legacy.

Thanks Pov. At least some of us get it.

Yep, a brilliant rider and career, but his stint at Ducati has definately lowered his colours to some degree.

Bunyip · Sep 21, 2012

Ngads said:
IMO: If he can win another title before he retires, his "goat legacy" will be back, at least in most peoples minds. Another title win will have people forgetting about his time ducati

No , it won,t

No, we won,t forget. His total career will be assessed by historians.

J4rn0 · Sep 21, 2012

povol said:
Since Stoner is leaving the game, he is just one Lorenzo injury away from winning a title.

With the same logic, Lorenzo was just one Stoner injury away from winning this year's title.

And was just one Rossi injury away from securing his first title in 2010.

Now again he's but one Pedrosa injury away from securing his second title.

It seems that the famous asterisks are forbidden in some cases but mandatory in others.

digger · Sep 21, 2012

J4rn0 said:
With the same logic, Lorenzo was just one Stoner injury away from winning this year's title.

And was just one Rossi injury away from securing his first title in 2010.

Now again he's but one Pedrosa injury away from securing his second title.

It seems that the famous asterisks are forbidden in some cases but mandatory in others.

Thanks j4rno, I was going to say that.

If stoner is considered the best by most round here, why isn't HIS title on the Honda, arguably the best bike on the grid, discounted the same as rossi's when he was riding the best bikes on the grid?

Slap that same logic on Lorenzo's title? Why not, it was the same " best equipment" that Rossi won his last title on?

If VR can only beat mediocre competition whilst riding only the best bikes, what does this say about Hayden, Lorenzo and Stoner, not too mention Pedrobot? That they could only SOMETIMES beat an overhyped not quite so talented DORNA prima Donna? That's a ....... insult to their talent if you ask me.

A lot of you blokes forget to apply the same logic to riders other than VR whilst trying to increase stoners status.

Rossi's Legacy Tainted

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