MotoGP: Aragón RACE

hawkdriver · Sep 29, 2013

michaelm

3620651380507773

I actually said there was not much in the incident in isolation, and I agree the result was freakish and bad luck as you say, and I am sure was in no way intended by MM.

MM does, imo anyway, continue to exhibit something of a pattern of disregard for others, both riders and on one occasion this year marshalls. To many this is perhaps the mark of greatness, but I always thought Proust was better than Senna.

I disagree with hawkdriver that it could just as easily been MM who was put out. of the race. That is true as far as the incident itself goes, but it was MM who caused the incident, not Dani (other than by looking like he was going to check out in the race), who had in fact already made a clean pass. If Dani was pissed off, which he apparently was, I am sure he would not be alone in being so in the same circumstances.

The mark of greatness is his flat out style, the kid has to fly, it's his way. He isn't a methodical racer like the ones we've had to endure for the past few seasons, maybe that will come later, who knows the kid is a rookie. Having riders with different styles of racing is great for the sport, just like F1 exploded because of Senna and Prost and their different styles. I personally prefer watching the flat out go fast than the methodical, Senna and Prost were both great and extremely talented. When is the last time we were able to watch a rider not have a perfect methodical lap after lap race and be able to come back twice in the same race to win, today pure speed, determination, and creativity(did you see some of his lines) won the race.

The bikes are going to touch and riders are going to crash, that's part of racing, there will be contact. That's why they wear protective gear and why the front brake lever has a guard. Pedro's bike should not have failed because of that contact, but it did and I'm sure Honda and hopefully Dorna will address wires protruding from the bike as a safety issue like they've done for the brake lever.

frizzle · Sep 29, 2013

Jumkie

3620681380509281

Always a pleasure to read ur takes, always level headed and succinct. A few thoughts, I dont think suddenly Marc is public enemy number one, I think u'll find those like myself whose opinion is that the kid has a disconnect with the potential consequences of his MO on the track are in the minority. Second, I dont think its entirety unjustified, as we shouldn't make the mistake of taking this incident as isolated. His reputation is not something that has suddenly been formulated without any basis. And thirdly, this point is, I believe, the crux of the matter, the unforseen consequences (even if its a propensity for "mistakes") can have serious repercussions! (Oddly Pov has argued he took the extra bonsai risk knowing the run off wouldn't ruin 'his' race as some kind of reasonable justification, accordingly a calculated risk. Though we can see how this ended for Pedro). Its this point of unforseen repercussions when taking excessive risk that is getting lost here! (Incidentally, for others reading, the operative word is "excessive".) I agree that other contacts between riders can be more 'blunt'; however im not sure this statement is relevant (with all due respect), though if it is then it serves to advance the point that "slight" contact can result in a serious crash just the same. Very few seem to see past what 'happens' and cant imagine what 'might have happened'. Earlier this year he came extremely close to Pedro's rear wheel and overshot. (Many argued his fine control was on display because he didn't actually torpedoed Pedro). U know it only takes "slight contact" from wheel to wheel to result in a spectacular crash. Keep in mind today's "slight contact" was perceivable on screen, so im not totally buying as Marc said "I touch him a little bit". Btw if guys keep coming in contact with Marc (2 this year, last couple of years many more incidents) we cant keep calling it "bad luck", as a pattern has developed. When Marc torpedoed Lorenzo, again the minority opinion was it was dangerous. Many argued: Nobody died so it must not have been dangerous, nobody crashed so it must have not been dangerous, it was the last lap for the win so it must not have been dangerous. All these being rationalization, as dangerous is in fact dangerous. And as we can see today, overshooting ur breaking and making slight contact resulted in one crash. Taking out another rider (irrelevant of how rare the reason) highlights the point that unforseen consequences can have serious repercussions. Lets for a moment imagine this had happened to Stoner, how might he have reacted? Ok, so Marc is a 'rookie', does this exonerate him from his ambition outweighing his talent? When VR was talking after the race, it appeared he mentioned the moment he had to avoid Pedros machine lying on the tarmac as perilous. Quite easily another rider could have smashed into it, or worse into Pedro. But like Jerez, because it didnt happen we cant be made to imagine it as a realistic possibility. I think this is a mistake on our part. It has been argued that nobody would tell Marc to be mindful on track as this might "steifel" his aggression. This doesn't give this kid enuf credit. I think he is smart enuf to harness his great talent while being mindful of fellow competitors. Its not unreasonable. Ive often said after press conferences, the kids seems likeable. And I believe Baturro whos opinion is he is down to earth. But as MikeM asserts, as nice as the kid may be, (I dont think he has ill will) the incidents he causes (lets not sugar coat it, there is cause and effect here) keep landing peeps in dire situations. Its not more than a couple of weeks he still expressed a disconnect between what he causes (Wilairot, despite Baturro trying to burry the incident as ancient history) and the consequences that result-fact. Is it unreasonable to point this out?

I agree there is a bit of form for MM as far as getting tangled up with other riders. The Wilairot incident at PI I remember thinking WTF was up with Marquez. Hopefully the kid matures a bit in that regard. As far as being a nice guy I'm not sure & as you say from the tv press conferences he seems to be. But boy he is good to watch ride & he is going to smash a lot of records before he is finished.

He is now racing against Lorenzo & Pedrosa. I don't see anyone in the lower classes that will challenge him, because none of them are as good as Pedrosa & lorenzo in my opinion.

Like it or not we have a Spanish championship basically in all classes. I certainly enjoy watching him ride before all the others.

michaelm · Sep 29, 2013

kiddyK

3620821380514164

I always thought Proust was better than Senna. I really enjoyed "Cities of the Plain (Sodome et Gomorrhe) but never got into anything Ayrton Senna has written. Maybe I should brush up on my Brazilian?

Portuguese actually if we are being picky.

Alain and Marcel are or were both Frenchmen, and French is supposed to be a more logical language than English, they bloody well should spell their names the same way.

I must perforce admit that Senna is not the most apposite comparison for your actual Marcel Proust, Seneca might be more apt.

michaelm · Sep 29, 2013

Frizzle

3620931380521489

I agree there is a bit of form for MM as far as getting tangled up with other riders. The Wilairot incident at PI I remember thinking WTF was up with Marquez. Hopefully the kid matures a bit in that regard. As far as being a nice guy I'm not sure & as you say from the tv press conferences he seems to be. But boy he is good to watch ride & he is going to smash a lot of records before he is finished.

He is now racing against Lorenzo & Pedrosa. I don't see anyone in the lower classes that will challenge him, because none of them are as good as Pedrosa & lorenzo in my opinion.

Like it or not we have a Spanish championship basically in all classes. I certainly enjoy watching him ride before all the others.

The guy is without the slightest shadow of doubt a fantastic rider.

My objection is to moves, particularly championship deciding moves, that are not feasible. However unlucky and unlikely the chain of occurrences, if MM was unlikely to be able to hold his line at the speed he was doing, he is at fault and Pedrosa entitled to be pissed off imo. I think the onus is greater at more dangerous/high speed sections of a track as well.

Keshav · Sep 30, 2013

Jumkie

3619511380472962

Well, MurderMac supporters of his antics have been saying all along when almost torpedoing his teammate, "He meant to be that close." Hahaha, Yeah fuckers, until he causes his teammate to crash.

Breaking mistake causing contact. No contact, no crash. Period.

Commence rationalizations in 3-2-1

Anyway, Happy Birthday Dani.

(I think we can official say Karma has come full circle.)

So... in your estimate, do you think his Karmic dept is paid?

Will he move on and be re-born as a higher lifeform

and no longer be a cockroach? Or does he just finally

get off the wheel of birth and re-birth?

Geonerd · Sep 30, 2013

Keshav

3621001380524583

So... in your estimate, do you think his Karmic dept is paid?

Will he move on and be re-born as a higher lifeform

and no longer be a cockroach? Or does he just finally

get off the wheel of birth and re-birth?

So long as Darth Puig (who can only dream of ascending to cockroach level) is driving Dani's cab, the Bad Karma meter will continue to run....

Sloth_27 · Sep 30, 2013

I can't believe we are discussing this 'dangerous' move. Guys bump into each other through all the classes a lot harder and with more regularity than Marquez and Pedrosa. If the sensor didn't fail or Pedrosa didn't highside nobody would even mention it.

Slamming into a guy on a cooldown lap is dangerous. Rubbing your shoulder against the other guys swingarm is racing, something everyone on here ....... about being missing for the past few years.

If Marquez was a Brit or USA'n, you would be loving it.

kiddyK · Sep 30, 2013

michaelm

3620961380523693

Portuguese actually if we are being picky.

Alain and Marcel are or were both Frenchmen, and French is supposed to be a more logical language than English, they bloody well should spell their names the same way.

I must perforce admit that Senna is not the most apposite comparison for your actual Marcel Proust, Seneca might be more apt.

Pick yourself out! It was a deliberate geo-fail

And that Seneca was far too stoic for my liking. I prefer the cut and thrust of the first-person narrative from 18th Century Parisians.

As to the spelling, I have given up on anyone outside of Blighty being the least bit competent when it comes to spelling. They all seem to think that the correct spelling is a bloody option!

Arrabbiata1 · Sep 30, 2013

Sloth_27

3621041380526212

I can't believe we are discussing this 'dangerous' move. Guys bump into each other through all the classes a lot harder and with more regularity than Marquez and Pedrosa. If the sensor didn't fail or Pedrosa didn't highside nobody would even mention it.

Slamming into a guy on a cooldown lap is dangerous. Rubbing your shoulder against the other guys swingarm is racing, something everyone on here ....... about being missing for the past few years.

If Marquez was a Brit or USA'n, you would be loving it.

Agree.

Sachsenring 2006 - remember the rubber down the left hand side of Nicky's leathers from leaning on Pedrosa's front tyre around Omega?

I find the MM lynch mob mentality on here hilarious given the hagiography and veneration surrounding Marco Simoncelli, by many who never so much as saw him race a 125 or 250 in anger.

Sic was much more of a liability on track than MM - and one reason for that is the fact that he wasn't in any sense approaching the extraordinary level of talent of Marquez.

Agree with Curve. With the demise of the dreadful 800cc formula, the greater torque of the 1 litre machines and the proposed lowering of the rev ceiling - ban traction control.

michaelm · Sep 30, 2013

Sloth_27

3621041380526212

I can't believe we are discussing this 'dangerous' move. Guys bump into each other through all the classes a lot harder and with more regularity than Marquez and Pedrosa. If the sensor didn't fail or Pedrosa didn't highside nobody would even mention it.

Slamming into a guy on a cooldown lap is dangerous. Rubbing your shoulder against the other guys swingarm is racing, something everyone on here ....... about being missing for the past few years.

If Marquez was a Brit or USA'n, you would be loving it.

I actually took Simoncelli's part in his incident with Pedrosa for which he was imo wrongly blamed and sanctioned, and criticised Stoner for the incident with Bautista (mainly for hypocrisy in the latter case, given his previous sanctimony including in reference to Petrucci in practice the same week-end), even though the Stoner incident did not materially affect either rider.

DP's last chance (imo) to win the championship is gone through no fault of his own because his team-mate's ambition exceeded his (admittedly great) talent is the bottom line. They sunk the Bismarck through the merest chance as well, a torpedo launched by an obsolete WW1 plane hitting its rudder when the warships were powerless against it, but sink it they did.

I am fine with all this "let me through or I will crash into you" stuff if it is allowable equally for all, which we all know it isn't; ask Alvaro Bautista for one.

bluegreen · Sep 30, 2013

Sloth_27

3621041380526212

I can't believe we are discussing this 'dangerous' move. Guys bump into each other through all the classes a lot harder and with more regularity than Marquez and Pedrosa. If the sensor didn't fail or Pedrosa didn't highside nobody would even mention it.

Slamming into a guy on a cooldown lap is dangerous. Rubbing your shoulder against the other guys swingarm is racing, something everyone on here ....... about being missing for the past few years.

If Marquez was a Brit or USA'n, you would be loving it.

This.

Sloth_27 · Sep 30, 2013

I don't think Marquez has ever had an in race move that is anything like what Simoncelli, Bautista, Barbera, etc used to get up to. Those guys were mental.

Lorenzo is going to have to remember how he did it in the 250s, because I know he had it in him back then. The top 3 mutual admiration society of 2009-2012 is dead.

michaelm · Sep 30, 2013

Sloth_27

3621111380528102

I don't think Marquez has ever had an in race move that is anything like what Simoncelli, Bautista, Barbera, etc used to get up to. Those guys were mental.

Lorenzo is going to have to remember how he did it in the 250s, because I know he had it in him back then. The top 3 mutual admiration society of 2009-2012 is dead.

Of course Jorge did it in the 250s. Not an option for him now, unless as has been suggested he switches to riding for HRC. I think he is getting everything that can be got out of that Yamaha, ask Valentino, no stranger to aggressive riding.

J4rn0 · Sep 30, 2013

Pedrosa's bad luck is almost unbelievable, but penalizing Marquez for that would be hilarious indeed.

michaelm · Sep 30, 2013

J4rn0

3621171380535819

Pedrosa's bad luck is almost unbelievable, but penalizing Marquez for that would be hilarious indeed.

MM shouldn't be penalised, but nor does the incident or this particular race merit further hagiography imo, and I can understand why Pedrosa might be annoyed.

stiefel · Sep 30, 2013

stiefel

3619561380477491

Overshot his breaking point, took out another rider. Bet you Kropo is going to argue it was the cables fault.

The good man never fails to deliver.

http://www.motomatters.com/analysis/2013/09/30/2013_aragon_motogp_sunday_round_up_part_.html

You've got to love his effort. Deliberately selective quotes:

"What is clear is that Marquez made a mistake, and that he touched the rear of Pedrosa's bike"

"did Marquez' contact damage Pedrosa's bike such that it crashed? It would appear so."

"Did the contact cause the crash? It is true that the contact caused the damage which caused the crash"

"Did Marquez trigger that sequence of events? Certainly. Did Marquez cause Pedrosa to crash? That is a much, much more difficult question to answer, and one to which I would answer no."

Don't get mad at me Krops. While it is certainly true that my fingers touched the keys which led to appearance of the words now appearing on your screen, rest assured that I am wholly innocent regarding this post. The fault lies entirely with my laptop, my internet provider, and Ben.

xx CURVE xx · Sep 30, 2013

Youre surprised namblamatters would be on MMs side?

Its the cable's fault, it wasn't sufficiently protected :lol:

What a load of ..... They should run every cable, wire, and hose through titanium conduit I guess :lol:

Jumkie · Sep 30, 2013

baturro

3620701380510381

So far he's learned not to do it again. Doing it again would get him in trouble. Keep in mind he's still a young kid. You must have never apologized for something but didn't fully mean it??

So he thinks he wasn't fully responsible, it definitely takes two parties to cause an accident. When I lived in Japan, I learned of this the hard way. I was hit while on a motorcycle, and by western insurance standards it would have been 100% the car drivers fault. In Japan, for being part of the accident, it was deemed that I was 5% responsible for the accident. For being there and being hit. Maybe MM talked to Nakamoto about this!!

Baturro, first of all, I enjoy the fact you are one of the more level headed guys here when discussing Marc, but a few times now you have said something inconsistent. Btw, I'm laughing at you saying "he has learned not to do it again". Did you type this with a straight face, because it really is honestly funny. Haha. Ok, so he has learned not to make contact into the back of another rider (uhm, why are we even having this discussion then?) Are we going to argue magnitude of contact now (as it has become a way to deflect from simple cause and effect)? He rammed into Wilorait vs he barley touched Pedro, both with similar effect. What exactly has he "learned" that you are wanting to defend? Is it perhaps that he has learned not to ram people after the flag vs during the race its ok? Let me ask you, how much contact pressure is necessary on the rear wheel of a rider to cause a crash? The answer is not much. But you guys are trying to argue because the contact was so slight it was ok?

Actually, this wasn't even the point I wanted to make. The inconsistency is you defending his torpedo of the Thai rider by saying: "it definitely takes two parties to cause an accident." That is what Marc is arguing too (which I and Mike are pointing out). And you, like him are completely wrong. But then you go on to use a personal example where you felt you were 0% at fault. How in the heck can you agree with Marc that "it takes two parties to cause and accident, while conceding that not both are at fault? Are you splitting hairs here and saying the only way an accident cannot be caused is if the other non-fault party did not exist in that space and time? That would seem rather obvious, so your point must be something else. What?

baturro

3620901380515421

No. What I said. There is and should be contact in motorcycle racing, but it would be stupid to INTENTIONALLY hit anything or anyone while riding on a motorcycle, especially at high speed.

There is no way MM intentionally hit DP the way they made contact with the purpose of MM gaining any advantage.

Did MM imagine the possibility of bumping JL on the final corner at Jerez? Probably yes. I think it was a stupid, gutsy move, but there was precedence on that corner on an extremely similar move.

As I said, you are usually very level headed, unemotional, and I really like the way you handle discussions surrounding Marc, but I must tell you, your inconsistency in reasoning and logic is a bit confusing. No offense to you personally, but how can you say there "should be contact" in motorcycle racing and in the very same sentence say "but it would be stupid to intentionally hit anything"? How does this make sense? There is no other way to read this is there? Should there be or shouldn't there be contact? We already know know contact happens, but this isn't the question.

We actually don't know for sure if Marc's contact was intentional or not! Its unlikely he meant to make contact with Pedro, but given his willingess to make contact on other occassions, we don't know for sure. I also doubt he meant to hit/rub (whatever makes you feel better how to describe it) Pedros at Aragon. But lets not pretend he didn't try and make up some advantage, as this was the point in trying to stay on the rear wheel perhaps setting up a pass on the next corner. He made a mistake (though I bet even this is up for contention, as with the Jerez incident Kropo wouldn't even admit Marc had actually made a "mistake"). If it wasn't a mistake when he rammed Lorenzo then it was in "intentional". Once a person is willful in making contact, how can you ever declare he was not trying to make contact in other incidents? Maybe he did want to "rub"/"brush" Pedro to unnerve him. Its not beyond the scope of believeability, as intimidation has been a tactic with precedence (though you would be hard pressed for a rider to ever admit it, like VR). As you said, there was "precedence" on that last corner at Jerez. Which also has me laughing, because that "precedence you speak of was equally criminal. That is awesome, we can now point to another criminal move and declare he was just trying to do the same thing to exonerate him.

lil red rocket pilot · Sep 30, 2013

stiefel

3621261380552845

The good man never fails to deliver.

http://www.motomatters.com/analysis/2013/09/30/2013_aragon_motogp_sunday_round_up_part_.html

You've got to love his effort. Deliberately selective quotes:

"What is clear is that Marquez made a mistake, and that he touched the rear of Pedrosa's bike"

"did Marquez' contact damage Pedrosa's bike such that it crashed? It would appear so."

"Did the contact cause the crash? It is true that the contact caused the damage which caused the crash"

"Did Marquez trigger that sequence of events? Certainly. Did Marquez cause Pedrosa to crash? That is a much, much more difficult question to answer, and one to which I would answer no."

Don't get mad at me Krops. While it is certainly true that my fingers touched the keys which led to appearance of the words now appearing on your screen, rest assured that I am wholly innocent regarding this post. The fault lies entirely with my laptop, my internet provider, and Ben.

Well my take on that is it is the bike design at fault.

MM is been a rascal and Kroppo is offering to give him a gentle spanking, tell him not to do it again, then join Cox n Parish sucking his .....

Jumkie · Sep 30, 2013

[quote name="stiefel" post="362126" timestamp="1380552845"]
stiefel, on 30 Sept 2013 - 08:01, said:
The good man never fails to deliver.

http://www.motomatters.com/analysis/2013/09/30/2013_aragon_motogp_sunday_round_up_part_.html

You've got to love his effort. Deliberately selective quotes:

"What is clear is that Marquez made a mistake, and that he touched the rear of Pedrosa's bike"

"did Marquez' contact damage Pedrosa's bike such that it crashed? It would appear so."

"Did the contact cause the crash? It is true that the contact caused the damage which caused the crash"

"Did Marquez trigger that sequence of events? Certainly. Did Marquez cause Pedrosa to crash? That is a much, much more difficult question to answer, and one to which I would answer no."

Don't get mad at me Krops. While it is certainly true that my fingers touched the keys which led to appearance of the words now appearing on your screen, rest assured that I am wholly innocent regarding this post. The fault lies entirely with my laptop, my internet provider, and Ben.[/quote]

Hilarious! I had appreciated Kropos for having the balls to exchange tough discussions here, being one of a very few good journalist of MotoGP, and genuinely a nice guy in real life...however, this article for me represents a worrisome turn toward unfettered and complete loss of balance and objectivity. This round up was baffling, I couldn't believe somebody seemingly so smart and knowledgeable could argue such illogical, irrelevant, and inconsistent statements. Its totally an attempt to rationalize culpability away from Marquez, and frankly not a very good attempt.

The world has gone completely mad.

The advancement of the fanatic's enthusiastic condition has become increasingly worse. Its now impossible to admire a rider for his talent and abilities while pointing out the unacceptable realities that surround them, demanding recourse is not to be given credence. Any lacking characteristics, regardless of its magnitude must be buffered at the expense of objectivity and fair-mindedness.

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MotoGP: Aragón RACE

hawkdriver

frizzle

michaelm

michaelm

Keshav

Geonerd

Sloth_27

kiddyK

Arrabbiata1

michaelm

bluegreen

Sloth_27

michaelm

J4rn0

michaelm

stiefel

xx CURVE xx

Jumkie

lil red rocket pilot

Jumkie

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