MotoGP: Aragón RACE

yamaka46

3621581380580951

I do blame Honda, partly for cable positioning and partly for the lack of proper FMEA anaysis. 


 


The system "design" that causes TC to be turned off when the wheel speed sensor is lost, the FMEA on that was done very poorly.  From my experience in Aerospace and Automotive, I'd have designed it to turn TC up ("TC"  without a rear wheel speed sensor would simply cut the power available, possibly quite dramatically.), then have a light on the dash to inform the rider, then have a rider override control to allow the rider to turn the TC off.  It's crazy for HRC to have not considered this failure mode, regardless of what causes the sensor input to fail.   Even Ducrapi have two sensors, one either side of the swing arm.


It does show (again) that TC allows the riders to open the throttle too hard/fast for the track conditions/corner angle without consequences.  Ban this level of TC IMHO, not Marques.

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I was waiting for someone to bring up FMEA.


I don't see anything particularly wrong with the cable positioning. There are brake cables to be snagged and gear levers that can be leaned on. It's a tiny target, but in this case, yes, it got crushed, so move or protect it.


Second, do we know what Ducati's twin sensors do? Are we sure it's redundancy?


 


Anyway, the real question concerns what is to be done. You suggest turning the TC up. But no sensor, no TC, so default to a base max torque level until the rider over-rides it? Sounds good, but here's a scenario, power is cut immediately in the middle of turn one. Five riders spud into the back of the poor ........ Better or worse than losing the rear?


 


I would guess they have - as you suggest - an over-ride of some sort, which is why I'm annoyed at him lobbing it (seemingly) before noticing an issue. It'd have been interesting to see the performance of the bike sans TC.

thedeal

3621381380570146

I just love all this, I have been pissing myself, yes MM has a history, but this was the smallest of contact, the same tiny contact that they all do and no one complains about or notices, but because this took out a sensor, and lets be honest even Ducati have two to be on the safe side, if that sensor wire had not been damaged Danny would have been fine, no one would have said a word, sometimes lessons get learnt the hard way and Honda have learnt that their system was flawed, the wire was vulnerable, they need two sensors, and if this happens again the system should switch to limp mode and not full power without traction control, not even a light comes on to tell the rider. even Ducati have changed their system after Ben got pitched a few weeks ago, but it is nice to see the murder mark squad out in force making complete fools of themselves , made me LOL.


 


EDIT,  As I am waiting for my esteemed and respected friend Jumkie, who is also president of the murder mark squad to come on and write a whole page on why I have brain damage for not seeing his way, I will add this, I have had a look back at some old vids with Jums hero in, Revvin Kevin, the moves he pulled make MM look like the cleanest guy in the world, Jum we have had follow my leader and don't overtake me unless I give you a mile wide gap for quite a few years now, MM is just a throw back to the golden days of 500s, he reminds me a lot of Kevin and I for one am happy he does, he pushes the bike to the absolute limit to try and win, sometimes he makes mistakes and sometimes it bites him in the ..., he is just a fast talented kid who wants to win, just like Kevin was.

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Ahem! all due respect but look at the ....... avi.


There is only one Prez and I am he!

thedeal

3621541380579343

I did not say he has a history of this, please show where I did, I was saying Jumkie is a hypocrite for lambasting MM for hitting Jorge in the side and not saying the same about Nicky when he did the same to Dovi.

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My points which Jumkie has already addressed were that you are cherry picking arguments and that I don't think your comparison with Hayden is a valid one.


 


As I think Jumkie has at least implied, there is a difference between bumping fairings one on one with both riders aware the fight is on, pretty much the essence of racing by  the likes of Schwantz  in the great years of the 500s (see my list of favourite riders) of hallowed memory, and making an unfeasible move from behind against someone on the racing line where they are entitled to be. Even leaving aside his moto2 antics, MM has unfairly done this twice this year imo, as demonstrated by him ending up off the track on this occasion, where there is little doubt he would also have gone in the incident with Lorenzo at Jerez had not Jorge's bike acted as a berm as someone put it. On both occasions the risks both in terms of the points for the season and a rider's bike being taken out were almost entirely for his opponent, and on both occasions he gained a significant advantage over one of his only two real opponents, on the second occasion basically eliminating Dani from the championship through absolutely no fault of Dani's. I also think there was an element of calculation on both occasions, not just simple rookie over-exuberance. His recent self justification regarding the Willairot incident also makes me wonder as I have previously said.. 


 


He will still obviously very much be a well deserved world champion, he has "ridden like a God" as Valentino might put it, and Jorge and DP will lose the championship because of all the races MM has fairly won and their crashes and injuries earlier in the season which this year as opposed to some others were quite likely imo due to the pressure  put on them by the championship winner's pace. 


 


I was never a subscriber to the "cheater moto2 bike" hypothesis btw and argued against it at some length last year.

14X

3621411380572340

One of the things I prefer in MotoGP is, unlike F1 when there's a little contact, the stewards don't go shitnuts ballistic with penalties, and it's somewhat accepted. ...and then I read comments here.


 


The only difference IMO between this contact and the move J-Lo pulled on Marky Mark at Silverstone was that a cable was accidently knocked out. It could've just as easily happened in Silverstone. Although if it had, there would've probably been the opposite response, as in the general viewing public and the commentators would hate Lorenzo for ruining Mark's race, and Powerslide would have no beef with it whatsoever.


 


Now I don't know Marquez's history, and to be honest, I don't personally find it relevant. I don't believe the kid's intentionally trying to take anyone out. Maybe getting that close to your own teammate might be a bad idea, but if nothing else it was ballsy and entertaining, same as the SIlverstone move. It just unfortunately resulted in Dani's race being ruined. Now I'll probably get equal hate from all sides as I don't think it's Marquez's fault. He was just pushing hard to overtake, I don't believe he yanked the cable. I also don't blame Honda, they weren't to know how precarious that cable is (although if they don't rethink and add a backup for future races I will blame them in future)


 


.... happens in racing.

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Sorry but in any case you study the MO of the person you want to get.


Studying the MO give insight to previous and patterns.


If patterns repeat you have reason to doubt.


When the top two riders both complain and others surly alarm bells should start ringing somewhere!?


 


Edit: sorry I didn't mean to quote anyone I was just ranting.


Bloody incoherent fingers

lil red rocket pilot said:

Edit: sorry I didn't mean to quote anyone I was just ranting.
Bloody incoherent fingers

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Its not your fingers to blame, as they are merely controlled by your brain, but rather the fault of the flawed device used to transmit your thoughts. If we have learned anything from this event given the general opinion of spectators, pundits, experts, jounalists, and paddock members is that actions controlled by your brain are the subject of faulty inanimate objects. Its not the rapist fault it was the mini skirt that induced what should have been a forseen occurrence.

lil red rocket pilot

3621781380588782

When the top two riders both complain and others surly alarm bells should start ringing somewhere!?

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If we gave a .... about what Lorenzo, Stoner and Pedrosa wanted, MotoGP races would just be a one at a time qualifying session between those three riders. They are only complaining because they are getting their arses handed to them by a kid who thinks it's funny to put on hard passes when he could really just ride around the outside of them all.


 


If Lorenzo and Pedrosa don't like it, I'm sure Redding and Espargaro will be happy to make use of their factory bikes in the next year or two.

Jumkie

3621291380557005

Baturro, first of all, I enjoy the fact you are one of the more level headed guys here when discussing Marc, but a few times now you have said something inconsistent.  Btw, I'm laughing at you saying "he has learned not to do it again".  Did you type this with a straight face, because it really is honestly funny.  Haha.  


 


Thanks Jum, I always have a smile on my face.  Especially with motor racing,  When I don't I'll stop watching.  Think of it this way,  the criminal bank robber...  He robs a bank, gets caught and goes to jail and after his punishment he gets out.  Has he learned about morals and being a normal citizen, or learned not to do it again because of the punishment?  Not saying MM is a "serial Torpedo, but more like a kid with a couple  things in mind, speed and winning and having fun at it.  


 


Actually, this wasn't even the point I wanted to make.  The inconsistency is you defending his torpedo of the Thai rider by saying: "it definitely takes two parties to cause an accident."  That is what Marc is arguing too (which I and Mike are pointing out).  And you, like him are completely wrong.  But then you go on to use a personal example where you felt you were 0% at fault.  How in the heck can you agree with Marc that "it takes two parties to cause and accident, while conceding that not both are at fault? 


 


I don't agree with MM, I think he was an ..... in the Wilairot incident.  I am just trying to explain a possible frame of mind/way of thinking for why he has explained his the incident the way he has.  

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Jumkie

3621291380557005

As I said, you are usually very level headed, unemotional, and I really like the way you handle discussions surrounding Marc, but I must tell you, your inconsistency in reasoning and logic is a bit confusing.  No offense to you personally, but how can you say there  "should be contact" in motorcycle racing and in the very same sentence say "but it would be stupid to intentionally hit anything"?  How does this make sense?  There is no other way to read this is there?  Should there be or shouldn't there be contact?  We already know know contact happens, but this isn't the question.


 


Motorcycle racing should not be a sterile go around in circles competition, but it's also not called bumper bike or demolition derby on 2 wheels.  I, such as you, have been around motorcycle racing and could not imagine or believe anyone would ever try to hit anyone on purpose.  

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Jumkie

3621291380557005

We actually don't know for sure if Marc's contact was intentional or not!  Its unlikely he meant to make contact with Pedro, but given his willingess to make contact on other occassions, we don't know for sure.  I also doubt he meant to hit/rub (whatever makes you feel better how to describe it) Pedros at Aragon.  But lets not pretend he didn't try and make up some advantage, as this was the point in trying to stay on the rear wheel perhaps setting up a pass on the next corner.  He made a mistake (though I bet even this is up for contention, as with the Jerez incident Kropo wouldn't even admit Marc had actually made a "mistake").  If it wasn't a mistake when he rammed Lorenzo then it was in "intentional".  Once a person is willful in making contact, how can you ever declare he was not trying to make contact in other incidents?  Maybe he did want to "rub"/"brush" Pedro to unnerve him.  Its not beyond the scope of believeability, as intimidation has been a tactic with precedence (though you would be hard pressed for a rider to ever admit it, like VR).  As you said, there was "precedence" on that last corner at Jerez.  Which also has me laughing, because that "precedence you speak of was equally criminal.  That is awesome, we can now point to another criminal move and declare he was just trying to do the same thing to exonerate him.  Again, I don't think there was anything preplanned in that MM/DP incident.  Don't give MM that much credit. He came in too hot and got too close, as happens many time with many riders in many races, they are just not on camera to see it.  There are obviously many more eyes on MM and the front of the pack.  I doubt there will be another wire cutting incident again.

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There!  I hope I answered some things for you!  

Sloth_27

3621831380595272

If we gave a .... about what Lorenzo, Stoner and Pedrosa wanted, MotoGP races would just be a one at a time qualifying session between those three riders. They are only complaining because they are getting their arses handed to them by a kid who thinks it's funny to put on hard passes when he could really just ride around the outside of them all.


 


If Lorenzo and Pedrosa don't like it, I'm sure Redding and Espargaro will be happy to make use of their factory bikes in the next year or two.

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I actually agree that Lorenzo and Pedrosa complaining per se is not necessarily indicative of any fault in MM. The issue is what they have complained about, and neither has complained about hard feasible passes to my knowledge.


 


Pedrosa has complained about being taken out by an unfeasible pass attempt in the recent race and iirc nearly being taken out by the one mistake which has affected MM himself this year, hardly unreasonable. In the recent incident Pedrosa had actually caught and cleanly passed him, and looked likely to disappear into the distance given he was already faster and on the hard tyres, although MM has done remarkable things late in races this year on presumably worn tyres.


 


The Lorenzo thing was the first race of the year before it was evident that he could pass Jorge  on the outside any time he wanted if this is the case ( in fact he had not passed Jorge in any fashion until then), and without the agency of Jorge /Jorge's bike would have placed him out on the dirt. What do you think the result of the move would have been  if the other party was Bautista for instance? If it is acceptable to punt an opponent on the racing line ahead of you off track midcorner then you are correct that Jorge and DP have no defence against MM, and there is a rather low rent car racing series in Australia called V8 supercars that you would likely enjoy.           

michaelm

3621851380598318

Pedrosa has complained about being taken out by an unfeasible pass attempt in the recent race and iirc nearly being taken out by the one mistake which has affected MM himself this year, hardly unreasonable. In the recent incident Pedrosa had actually caught and cleanly passed him, and looked likely to disappear into the distance given he was already faster and on the hard tyres, although MM has done remarkable things late in races this year on presumably worn tyres.

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And a lighter fuel load

michaelm

3621851380598318

I actually agree that Lorenzo and Pedrosa complaining per se is not necessarily indicative of any fault in MM. The issue is what they have complained about, and neither has complained about hard feasible passes to my knowledge.

 

Pedrosa has complained about being taken out by an unfeasible pass attempt in the recent race and iirc nearly being taken out by the one mistake which has affected MM himself this year, hardly unreasonable. In the recent incident Pedrosa had actually caught and cleanly passed him, and looked likely to disappear into the distance given he was already faster and on the hard tyres, although MM has done remarkable things late in races this year on presumably worn tyres.

 Top

The Lorenzo thing was the first race of the year before it was evident that he could pass Jorge  on the outside any time he wanted if this is the case ( in fact he had not passed Jorge in any fashion until then), and without the agency of Jorge /Jorge's bike would have placed him out on the dirt. What do you think the result of the move would have been  if the other party was Bautista for instance? If it is acceptable to punt an opponent on the racing line ahead of you off track midcorner then you are correct that Jorge and DP have no defence against MM, and there is a rather low rent car racing series in Australia called V8 supercars that you would likely enjoy.           

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Quoted because it is worth repeating.

michaelm

3621851380598318

I actually agree that Lorenzo and Pedrosa complaining per se is not necessarily indicative of any fault in MM. The issue is what they have complained about, and neither has complained about hard feasible passes to my knowledge.


 


The Lorenzo thing was the first race of the year before it was evident that he could pass Jorge  on the outside any time he wanted if this is the case ( in fact he had not passed Jorge in any fashion until then), and without the agency of Jorge /Jorge's bike would have placed him out on the dirt. What do you think the result of the move would have been  if the other party was Bautista for instance? If it is acceptable to punt an opponent on the racing line ahead of you off track midcorner then you are correct that Jorge and DP have no defence against MM, and there is a rather low rent car racing series in Australia called V8 supercars that you would likely enjoy.           

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As I said at the time, I'm not a fan of the 'punt the guy on the outside' style of move that he put on Lorenzo. The only reason he got away with that was because of the precedent. I don't want to see that move made by anyone.


 


But this incident is nothing like that. He braked too late, and brushed against Pedrosa's bike with his shoulder. It didn't even cause Pedrosa to flinch at all.


 


This is why we need grass/gravel to the edge of the track - so there are consequences for braking so late. Marquez is just making the most of the situation.

What  pack of nancies!!! you guys are like a bunch of NYC bikers!!


 


 


Jumkie and the NYbikers there's a pretty good argument on some sewing forum somewhere, go and bait a granny ..... though I think they'd whoop your arses like a mum with her two year old in a range rover too.


 


 


 


On the Aragon race ........ Marquez won ....... with great honour.

You heading PI, Baz?

Dr No

3622201380620897

You heading PI, Baz?

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Is there a mob there ??


 


:lol: ;lol: :lol:

Sloth_27

3622091380617739

But this incident is nothing like that. He braked too late, and brushed against Pedrosa's bike with his shoulder. It didn't even cause Pedrosa to flinch at all.


 


This is why we need grass/gravel to the edge of the track - so there are consequences for braking so late. Marquez is just making the most of the situation.

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Agree with the second.


 


Many interpretations can be put on the latest Pedrosa incident according to your/one's prejudices. I largely refrained from saying it was a last desperate lunge by MM in a place where it was relatively safe (for him at least) to take a risk because I have seen the remarkable things he has done late in many races this year. I defy anyone in Dani's position, be they Valentino Rossi in his prime or anyone else, not to be annoyed by being taken out by the error of a following rider in those circumstances though, particularly with the result being the effective end of his championship hopes, whilst MM's were not on the line. It was not feasible to pass Dani there, and Dani did absolutely nothing wrong or even interpretable as lacking in fight, and I can see nothing he could have done differently in retrospect. 


 


Decry Stoner for being pusillanimous all you like, but he managed 2 years as dominant as MM's year this year without taking anyone out. 

BarryMachine

3622241380621410

 

Is there a mob there ??

 

:lol: ;lol: :lol:

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No idea. Heading down with 3 generations of a mate's family. No pets, though.

Are you heading down?

michaelm

3622261380622785

Agree with the second.


 


Many interpretations can be put on the latest Pedrosa incident according to your/one's prejudices. I largely refrained from saying it was a last desperate lunge by MM in a place where it was relatively safe (for him at least) to take a risk because I have seen the remarkable things he has done late in many races this year. I defy anyone in Dani's position, be they Valentino Rossi in his prime or anyone else, not to be annoyed by being taken out by the error of a following rider in those circumstances though, particularly with the result being the effective end of his championship hopes, whilst MM's were not on the line. It was not feasible to pass Dani there, and Dani did absolutely nothing wrong or even interpretable as lacking in fight, and I can see nothing he could have done differently in retrospect. 


 


Decry Stoner for being pusillanimous all you like, but he managed 2 years as dominant as MM's year this year without taking anyone out. 

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Michaelm, firstly MM did not take Danny out as you state, the contact was very slight as Danny says, it was the lack of TC that took Danny out, this was because of a small mistake from MM, and if you want to compare him with Stoner, go back and look at the mistakes made by him in his rookie year.

Barry doesn't do race weekends unless he is participating and/or instructing on backing-in techniques... "To much traffic", he doth say!

Dr No

3622271380623288

No idea. Heading down with 3 generations of a mate's family. No pets, though.

Are you heading down?

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No ..... I don't do large crowds.

thedeal

3622301380623493

Michaelm, firstly MM did not take Danny out as you state, the contact was very slight as Danny says, it was the lack of TC that took Danny out, this was because of a small mistake from MM, and if you want to compare him with Stoner, go back and look at the mistakes made by him in his rookie year.

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Which wouldn't have happened without the contact though.


 


I make no claim to be unbiased myself . I do think Stoner took what happened as a result of his mistake in 2006 very much to heart and tried very hard not to repeat it, and was immediately very apologetic if you re-watch the footage; it also wasn't the result of an overambitious passing attempt whilst comfortably leading the championship on a factory Honda.