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MotoGP: Aragón RACE

baturro
3620241380495615

Again, that is old news. I believe he's learned from that. Does your mom still bring up that time you were naughty, or does she believe your grown up?


 


NO!  The little .... didn't learn a ....... thing!


It was just a few weeks ago that he made the statement in which he actually attempted to blame (WTF!???) Rathapark for the crash.


Lack or remorse + lack of empathy + blaming of others for the negative consequences of his actions = textbook sociopath.


 


When confronted with the discrepancy, Marquez was at pains to point out

that he believed the two incidents were not the same. 'I think it was a

little bit different,' Marquez said. 'On the lap in Australia, yes I was

fast, but also Wilairot was so slow on the line, was with first gear.

So it was my mistake, but it was also his mistake, because OK, it is the

finish lap, but you cannot go with first gear round all the circuit.

And Dani Rivas was completely different. You know that there they

practice the start, and he was talking with another rider, so that is

dangerous. In the end, Race Direction take that decision, maybe one race

was enough, but it was a dangerous moment for all the riders, because

in the end he touched just two or three riders, but there were many

riders there.'


 


 


I can't rationally blame MarcMurder for Honda's dodgy engineering and firmware, and Dani's subsequent Moon Shot, but I will remarq that "This sort of .... always seems to involve #93."
 
Frizzle
3620571380504739

Michael is was pure bad luck. They hardly brushed each other. The rubbing in moto2 between Redding & Espargaro was far worse.


If the cable didn't break it wouldn't even be worth talking about. He missed his brake point. .... happens.


I actually said there was not much in the incident in isolation, and I agree the result was freakish and bad luck as you say, and I am  sure  was in no way intended by MM. 


 


MM does, imo anyway,  continue to exhibit something of a pattern of disregard for others, both riders and on one occasion this year marshalls. To many this is perhaps the mark of greatness, but I always thought Proust was better than Senna.


 


I disagree with hawkdriver that it could just as easily been MM who was put out. of the race. That is true as far as the incident itself goes, but it was MM who caused the incident, not Dani (other than by looking like he was going to check out in the race), who had in fact already made a clean pass. If Dani was pissed off, which he apparently was, I am sure he would not be alone in being so in  the same circumstances. 
 
michaelm
3620651380507773

I actually said there was not much in the incident in isolation, and I agree the result was freakish and bad luck as you say, and I am  sure  was in no way intended by MM. 


 


MM does, imo anyway,  continue to exhibit something of a pattern of disregard for others, both riders and on one occasion this year marshalls. To many this is perhaps the mark of greatness, but I always thought Proust was better than Senna.


 


I disagree with hawkdriver that it could just as easily been MM who was put out. of the race. That is true as far as the incident itself goes, but it was MM who caused the incident, not Dani (other than by looking like he was going to check out in the race), who had in fact already made a clean pass. If Dani was pissed off, which he apparently was, I am sure he would not be alone in being so in  the same circumstances. 


 


You are the most delusional Powerslide member EVER.  And it's "Prost".... not Proust.  Turd.
 
I wish the field was full of guys who could ride like Marquez.


 


Actually watch how he rides that Honda - the kid is in another league. There is no point bringing Stoner back to challenge him, he would be beaten into submission within a couple of rounds. Lorenzo is too polite, Pedrosa doesn't want it bad enough and Rossi is too slow. Welcome to the Marquez era.
 
Michael is was pure bad luck. They hardly brushed each other. The rubbing in moto2 between Redding & Espargaro was far worse.
If the cable didn't break it wouldn't even be worth talking about. He missed his brake point. .... happens.

Always a pleasure to read ur takes, always level headed and succinct. A few thoughts, I dont think suddenly Marc is public enemy number one, I think u'll find those like myself whose opinion is that the kid has a disconnect with the potential consequences of his MO on the track are in the minority. Second, I dont think its entirety unjustified, as we shouldn't make the mistake of taking this incident as isolated. His reputation is not something that has suddenly been formulated without any basis. And thirdly, this point is, I believe, the crux of the matter, the unforseen consequences (even if its a propensity for "mistakes") can have serious repercussions! (Oddly Pov has argued he took the extra bonsai risk knowing the run off wouldn't ruin 'his' race as some kind of reasonable justification, accordingly a calculated risk. Though we can see how this ended for Pedro). Its this point of unforseen repercussions when taking excessive risk that is getting lost here! (Incidentally, for others reading, the operative word is "excessive".)

I agree that other contacts between riders can be more 'blunt'; however im not sure this statement is relevant (with all due respect), though if it is then it serves to advance the point that "slight" contact can result in a serious crash just the same. Very few seem to see past what 'happens' and cant imagine what 'might have happened'. Earlier this year he came extremely close to Pedro's rear wheel and overshot. (Many argued his fine control was on display because he didn't actually torpedoed Pedro). U know it only takes "slight contact" from wheel to wheel to result in a spectacular crash. Keep in mind today's "slight contact" was perceivable on screen, so im not totally buying as Marc said "I touch him a little bit". Btw if guys keep coming in contact with Marc (2 this year, last couple of years many more incidents) we cant keep calling it "bad luck", as a pattern has developed.

When Marc torpedoed Lorenzo, again the minority opinion was it was dangerous. Many argued: Nobody died so it must not have been dangerous, nobody crashed so it must have not been dangerous, it was the last lap for the win so it must not have been dangerous. All these being rationalization, as dangerous is in fact dangerous. And as we can see today, overshooting ur breaking and making slight contact resulted in one crash. Taking out another rider (irrelevant of how rare the reason) highlights the point that unforseen consequences can have serious repercussions. Lets for a moment imagine this had happened to Stoner, how might he have reacted? Ok, so Marc is a 'rookie', does this exonerate him from his ambition outweighing his talent? When VR was talking after the race, it appeared he mentioned the moment he had to avoid Pedros machine lying on the tarmac as perilous. Quite easily another rider could have smashed into it, or worse into Pedro. But like Jerez, because it didnt happen we cant be made to imagine it as a realistic possibility. I think this is a mistake on our part.

It has been argued that nobody would tell Marc to be mindful on track as this might "steifel" his aggression. This doesn't give this kid enuf credit. I think he is smart enuf to harness his great talent while being mindful of fellow competitors. Its not unreasonable.

Ive often said after press conferences, the kids seems likeable. And I believe Baturro whos opinion is he is down to earth. But as MikeM asserts, as nice as the kid may be, (I dont think he has ill will) the incidents he causes (lets not sugar coat it, there is cause and effect here) keep landing peeps in dire situations. Its not more than a couple of weeks he still expressed a disconnect between what he causes (Wilairot, despite Baturro trying to burry the incident as ancient history) and the consequences that result-fact. Is it unreasonable to point this out?
 
Geonerd
3620641380507734

NO!  The little .... didn't learn a ....... thing!


It was just a few weeks ago that he made the statement in which he actually attempted to blame (WTF!???) Rathapark for the crash.


Lack or remorse + lack of empathy + blaming of others for the negative consequences of his actions = textbook sociopath.


 


 


 


 


I can't rationally blame MarcMurder for Honda's dodgy engineering and firmware, and Dani's subsequent Moon Shot, but I will remarq that "This sort of .... always seems to involve #93."


So far he's learned not to do it again.  Doing it again would get him in trouble.  Keep in mind he's still a young kid.  You must have never apologized for something but didn't fully mean it??  


 


So he thinks he wasn't fully responsible, it definitely takes two parties to cause an accident.  When I lived in Japan, I learned of this the hard way.  I was hit while on a motorcycle, and by western insurance standards it would have been 100% the car drivers fault.  In Japan, for being part of the accident, it was deemed that I was 5% responsible for the accident.  For being there and being hit.  Maybe MM talked to Nakamoto about this!!
 
Baturro, it is not just Japan. I was assigned partial responsibility for a bike accident in Canada for being hit by a car driving on the wrong side of the road approaching a blind hill... WTF?
 
Jumkie
3620681380509281

Always a pleasure to read ur takes, always level headed and succinct. A few thoughts, I dont think suddenly Marc is public enemy number one, I think u'll find those like myself whose opinion is that the kid has a disconnect with the potential consequences of his MO on the track are in the minority. Second, I dont think its entirety unjustified, as we shouldn't make the mistake of taking this incident as isolated. His reputation is not something that has suddenly been formulated without any basis. And thirdly, this point is, I believe, the crux of the matter, the unforseen consequences (even if its a propensity for "mistakes") can have serious repercussions! (Oddly Pov has argued he took the extra bonsai risk knowing the run off wouldn't ruin 'his' race as some kind of reasonable justification, accordingly a calculated risk. Though we can see how this ended for Pedro). Its this point of unforseen repercussions when taking excessive risk that is getting lost here! (Incidentally, for others reading, the operative word is "excessive".) I agree that other contacts between riders can be more 'blunt'; however im not sure this statement is relevant (with all due respect), though if it is then it serves to advance the point that "slight" contact can result in a serious crash just the same. Very few seem to see past what 'happens' and cant imagine what 'might have happened'. Earlier this year he came extremely close to Pedro's rear wheel and overshot. (Many argued his fine control was on display because he didn't actually torpedoed Pedro). U know it only takes "slight contact" from wheel to wheel to result in a spectacular crash. Keep in mind today's "slight contact" was perceivable on screen, so im not totally buying as Marc said "I touch him a little bit". Btw if guys keep coming in contact with Marc (2 this year, last couple of years many more incidents) we cant keep calling it "bad luck", as a pattern has developed. When Marc torpedoed Lorenzo, again the minority opinion was it was dangerous. Many argued: Nobody died so it must not have been dangerous, nobody crashed so it must have not been dangerous, it was the last lap for the win so it must not have been dangerous. All these being rationalization, as dangerous is in fact dangerous. And as we can see today, overshooting ur breaking and making slight contact resulted in one crash. Taking out another rider (irrelevant of how rare the reason) highlights the point that unforseen consequences can have serious repercussions. Lets for a moment imagine this had happened to Stoner, how might he have reacted? Ok, so Marc is a 'rookie', does this exonerate him from his ambition outweighing his talent? When VR was talking after the race, it appeared he mentioned the moment he had to avoid Pedros machine lying on the tarmac as perilous. Quite easily another rider could have smashed into it, or worse into Pedro. But like Jerez, because it didnt happen we cant be made to imagine it as a realistic possibility. I think this is a mistake on our part. It has been argued that nobody would tell Marc to be mindful on track as this might "steifel" his aggression. This doesn't give this kid enuf credit. I think he is smart enuf to harness his great talent while being mindful of fellow competitors. Its not unreasonable. Ive often said after press conferences, the kids seems likeable. And I believe Baturro whos opinion is he is down to earth. But as MikeM asserts, as nice as the kid may be, (I dont think he has ill will) the incidents he causes (lets not sugar coat it, there is cause and effect here) keep landing peeps in dire situations. Its not more thab a couple of weeks he still expressed a disconnect between what he causes and the consequences that result-fact. Is it unreasonable to point this out?


It was for second
 
Poll question: who here thinks motorcycle racing is a contact sport? This very basic question will draw the line whether you think simple contact is murder...


Me: Yes contact sport.
 
Mick D
3620751380511980

Poll question: who here thinks motorcycle racing is a contact sport? This very basic question will draw the line whether you think simple contact is murder...


Me: Yes contact sport.


Contact in   racing is inevitable.
 
Yes, contact sport.


 


Not contact like USA football or rugby, but contact like in thoroughbred racing.  Close jockeying, rubbing, bumping and unintentional contact.
 
Ask Casey and Bautista?


No seriously motogp is not a contact sport, there will be incidents though. Motorcross on the other hand, that's bare knuckle fighting
 
SuperShinya56
3620661380508507

You are the most delusional Powerslide member EVER.  And it's "Prost".... not Proust.  Turd.


 


I always thought Proust was better than Senna. I really enjoyed "Cities of the Plain (Sodome et Gomorrhe) but never got into anything Ayrton Senna has written. Maybe I should brush up on my Brazilian?
 
baturro
3620801380512801

Yes, contact sport.


 


Not contact like USA football or rugby, but contact like in thoroughbred racing.  Close jockeying, rubbing, bumping and unintentional contact.


Then not a contact sport.
 
I come from a background of dirt bike riding and that isn't a contact sport. Sure, a lot of contact happens, but that's not the definition of 'contact sport' and the wrong kind of <strike>leaves on the tracks</strike> contact will get you bounced on your arse and ridden over.


 


Incidental vs accidental vs deliberate.


 


Rubbing is incidental, t-boning can be accidental but is indicative of brain fade and deliberate is reaching across and hitting his kill switch (not that I was ever caught doing that... :) )
 
I've done some dirtbiking myself, there are lots of bar banging, clutch pulling, block passes etc. By definition


con·tact sport  


Noun: A sport in which the participants necessarily come into bodily contact with one another.


That's certainly in the spirit of motorcrossracing
 
Dr No
3620831380514473

Then not a contact sport.


No.  What I said.  There is and should be contact in motorcycle racing, but it would be stupid to INTENTIONALLY hit anything or anyone while riding on a motorcycle, especially at high speed.  


 


There is no way MM intentionally hit DP the way they made contact with the purpose of MM gaining any advantage.  


Did MM imagine the possibility of bumping JL on the final corner at Jerez?  Probably yes.  I think it was a stupid, gutsy move, but there was precedence on that corner on an extremely similar move.  
 
baturro
3620901380515421

No.  What I said.  There is and should be contact in motorcycle racing, but it would be stupid to INTENTIONALLY hit anything or anyone while riding on a motorcycle, especially at high speed.  


 


There is no way MM intentionally hit DP the way they made contact with the purpose of MM gaining any advantage.  


Did MM imagine the possibility of bumping JL on the final corner at Jerez?  Probably yes.  I think it was a stupid, gutsy move, but there was precedence on that corner on an extremely similar move.  


 


"Yes, contact sport"


 


But I agree with your examples and the greater definition.


Intentional contact is idiotic.


Block passes, etc work for the very reason that bike racing is not a contact sport.
 

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