Joined Aug 2008
6K Posts | 748+
Thailand
Your 'clout-detector' is about as real and effective as Pov's ability to define interest in Moto2 based on PS posts. I really expect better from you.
So Rossi beating Lorenzo 4-1 this season is what? Luck. Have a word. Lorenzo has choked and Rossi has upped his game and is now the only rider in with a shout at beating MM.
Where as Lorenzo was on a factory and he got beaten by satellite bikes, several.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
No, I'm not saying that, read it what I said slowly. You asked to :Correct you if you’re wrong, no problem. You can look up Lorenzo’s comments for yourself. I didn’t put these words in his mouth, and obviously some of you “informed” here must have missed them. Perhaps you should go back to watching the video Povol posted of some propaganda goon Fox-esk producer trying to manipulate the viewer by painting Lorenzo in a bad light to form your opinions, as some here seem rather shallow and easily influenced. I’m saying Jlo’s confidence in his own status is what might have led him to express these comments. He thinks his clout has diminished perhaps, as he was basically saying, one or two mistakes and suddenly people around me are losing confidence, which I interpret as possibly playing into his mindset. That’s why I say something has happened with his clout, either real or perceived. Words, horse, mouth, etc.
Regarding Dorna’s roll in my comments and your erroneous conclusion, I said it “reminded me of…” how the eventual ‘bad guy vs hero’ narrative played out. Dorna wasn’t putting words in their mouths; but they sure capitalized on it, highlighting videos of their clashes to enhance the development of soap opera. Got it? Here, let me type slower for the benefit of others who have piggy backed on your reply: Dorna are not influencing Jlo’s team principals (I didn’t say that in this case did I) what I am saying is I expect Dorna to capitalize on it to produced a familiar and effective narrative. Though…(I’m almost tempted not to add this part as it seems separate and distinct points are hard too keep track around here, being lost with a few of you)… I don’t for a minute put it past Dorna to actively influence teams and their riders, as they have done some in direct and indirect ways. After all, isn’t it here where Kropo mentioned Dorna essentially orchestrated VR’s return to Yamaha? Even subsidizing VR’s salary. So I don’t know what sheltered world you live in to question the audacity of sophisticated executives to manipulate their organizations for consumption, but newsflash buddy, it happens.
(Pov, Migs, etal, get somebody to explain this post to you)
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Wow slow down. I know the Rossi fans are feeling good, but Pedrosa is still closer to Marquez than Rossi is
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Oh you make it too easy. Backed himself into a corner...like you declaring "I'm going to boycott the sport", not once but twice, then hanging around for everybody to see what a fool you've made of your unwavering stand?
Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
Dont Know
Mick Doohan debuted on a Rothmons Honda in 1989 and regularly got his ... kicked by those customer 500 riders you talk of. One of which happened to win the championship. Eddie Lawson formed a private based cunstomer Honda team with legendary tuner Erv Kanemoto in 1989. Not finding the factory Honda chasis much to their liking, Kanemoto made custom changes to the frame to suit Lawson, who went on to win the title. The factory Honda's went on to finished 9th and 10th. Goes down in the history of 500cc.
Lawson descibes it on a program we have showing before motogp called 500cc The Unrideables. Interesting stuff to see where the sport was and where it has come to. My arguement is they have done .... all to improve what was once a mind blowing sport. If you and Pov are happy with crtGP good for you, dont try and sell the ........ to me its always been the same as it is now because I'm not buying it.
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Dude, im as anti CRT as anyone on the planet, but i am not a history revisionist. I have followed this sport for a long time, and there were not 15 bikes on the grid that were anywhere near what you would call equal. I was very careful to say "works" bikes because they were not all " factory efforts" per se.
Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
Dont Know
They all entered under the same set of rules, they did not lock engines in vaults or try to save the planet by using 1L less fuel or any other stupid sabotage of the sport. There were 3 podium finishers and thats it, no podium almost good enough second class finishers. If a team boss and rider were motivated enough ala Kenny Roberts and Wayne Rainey, they could get the funding without having to own an oil refinery and run against the might of a factory team and be highly competitive. Sure many teams sucked and riders sucked, that was their problem, nothing to do with the rules or governance of the sport. Never in the history of gp's have the rules been as bad as they are now. Kawasaki, Suzuki, Michelin, then Casey Stoner all cried ........ and walked out on the sport.
Marquez, great as he is to watch ride a bike, is not a solution to this. But Ezy will do everything in his power to sell Marquez as the saviour, and Krop follow along and not write any more "how to save motogp" or "why motogp would be better without Honda" pieces, even though the rules now are even worse than in the dreaded 800cc era.
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
I agree with most of what you say, i am not a fan of fuel limits, engine limits, or spec tires. i just called ........ on your assertion that bikes 10-14 were just as good as bikes 1-5 in the 80's. Yea, life was simpler in the 80's and lot less expensive, but GP is just a microcosm of life in the 21st century.
Well I think they've realized what a big part of the problem is, the electronics, even the future ecu had to be dumbed down because the non factory teams simply didn't have the ability to work with it. I also don't think things are as ...... as you guys make them out to be, the sport is clearly in a period of transition and going to one set of rules. I also don't understand all the hatred for the crt bikes, so far all the predictions from the naysayers have been wrong.
Joined Apr 2011
636 Posts | 26+
Gold Coast
agreed, there were far slower bikes in the late 80's. i actually watched 89 phillip island yesterday and the back markers were fuggin insanely slow. one of em actually got cleaned up at honda hp cause he was so far off pace and on the racing line.
Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
Dont Know
According to interviews with the riders and team managers from to 80's the bikes in 10-14 were typically the factory bikes from the year before sold off to private teams. They were not RG/RZ500's off the street, or a CRT equivalent. Whether they were as good is open to debate sure enough, though Wayne Rainey was saying he actually wanted last years bike back because he thought it was better.
I believe you are ignoring that it was mostly a case of the few riders who were able to firstly set up then actually ride a 500cc which made the difference, so the bike finishing 10th if set up and ridden by Rainey does not still finish 10th imo, and visa versa. I do not believe that is the case today with say Hayden and Marquez both on a Honda but one a CRTHonda, which again imo degrades the sport below what it used to be.
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Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Im not ignoring it at all , Its the same scenario today. You have 4-5 truly elite riders who deservedly get the top rides, the rest are interchangeable with dozens of riders across the globe. The glory days are always remembered for more than what they really were for some reason. My memories of GP from the 80's were a handful of riders who dominated the series, runaway victories and half the field being lapped.There was one season where Lawson and Schwantz dueled toe to toe for most of the season, but for the most part, races were much more spread out than today Didnt bother me then, doesnt bother me now except the lappers. If you are consistently being lapped in races, you, your machine, or both have no business being there
I agree that it still doesnt finish 10th, but it doesnt win championships
Joined Aug 2008
6K Posts | 748+
Thailand
Now you've found the right answer bird. You only had to have a friend at the local tobacco conglomerate who was looking for a way to spend 10s of millions he could no longer spend on conventional advertising, buy the best engineers and rider and off ya go - it was a simpler time. My recollection is more like digger's where the last half dozen bike were getting lapped - TWICE!!
IMO opinion tyres were the main thing which made the earlier racing seem closer. Riders had to ride at 85-90% of their potential for three quarters of the race to conserve tyres, then in the last 5 laps, drop the hammer. There were 10-12 riders in the field that could maintain that 90% which gave a false impression of the evenness of the riders & bikes, but come the last 5 laps, it was nearly always the factory guys pulling away.
Nowadays, the best don't have to conserve tyres, they just go flat out from the 1st lap until the finish.
Nowadays, the best don't have to conserve tyres, they just go flat out from the 1st lap until the finish.
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
You would think if that was the case, the margin of victory would have been closer than it was. The average margin of victory in those days was 6-7 seconds, so far this year, it is under 2 seconds and last year was under 3 for the entire season. Thats why im saying the bikes are closer in performance today, than they were then . Now 10th place finishes on the average of around 30 seconds down, then, it was a minute and a half all the way to being lapped. The racing is considerably closer today than it was then, but if you listen to some people, those were the golden years of GP. I thin k whats happened, is people see a compilation tape of an era where they show the best races of an era in 10 minutes and some get the impression that every race was decided by 3/10ths of a second, when in fact, a huge majority of them would have todays fans pulling their hair out and being fitted for straight jackets
I agree with you that the bikes are closer today. The lack of durability of the tyre in the 80 & 90's gave an impression of equality for the first 20 laps as riders conserved tyres. But when the pressure came on for the final 5 laps, then the factory guys could check out when needed.
Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
Dont Know
You are the master of running off on to tangents. When were we debating how close the racing was, or whether there were run-away vistory's? Whats next, who posts in Moto2?
Thats the kiddies debate your having, oh boo hoo the racing is boring. I'm not into that. If Marquez is good enough to beat Haydens ... on the same bike by 50 seconds so be it. I like watching that ..... But Pov, Marquez is not even racing the same class as Hayden. Show me were in the 80's that was the case. Yeah yeah throw out another tangent on some irrelevet .... about backmarkers or tobacco sponsors etc etc. Not debating the same topic. Show me where in the 80's 4 bikes pulled into park ferme. I want to see Hayden, Dovi and co race Marquez in the same class. Unlike you I dont threaten boycott if that class happens to be dumbed down Superbikes, I dont give a .... as long as its the same class. I would prefer to see Marquez kick Haydens ... on the same production Honda. Imo Marquez is undoubtedly the best rider out there. Who's next best? Is it Rossi? Well back in the Ducati days Hayden often matched, sometimes even bettered Rossi. Would it be possible Hayden, or Dovi could do the same on an M1? Who knows. Who cares you say? I bet he does. In the 80's, he would be in the same class, thats my arguement, so we would know.
To debate the tangents:
Many sports once relied on tobabcco sponsorship. Many sports got over the loss of those sponsors, found even better ones, raised even more revenue, made their sport even more competitive and more professional. Because they were not lazy ... dim-wits out to milk the sport ala Dorna.
The backmarkers you talk about were .... riders wobbling all over the track. They sucked, but they raced in the same class, quickly found out they didint have what it takes and pissed off back to where-ever they came from. Todays level of riders are far more professional, brings me to the same point the sport should be much better than it is. Did you notice Brock Parks, not what I would call the greatest rider but decent, sitting in the pits because his CrapRT bike wouldnt start? Yes thats progress I suppose, at least he wasnt lapped.
Yes 500cc races were often more spread out, for some more boring. Not for me. To watch a rider master that bike was great to watch. You know some races were so spread out, some riders were simply that good, they would beat there own team-mate, on the same bike no less, into 10th place! Think about that Pov. Is it the same now?
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