yamaka46
The same concept was used on both bikes, both behave in the same way, very flawed design.
3621601380581440
So Spies to ride the Piganale, What a bugger - will it be worse than the Pramac? - Checa doesn't seem keen
The same concept was used on both bikes, both behave in the same way, very flawed design.
The S1000RR was a POS in Supers for several years. Even now, it's a reasonable machine but largely behind the Kawi and Aprillia. BMW took several seasons to place the 1KRR on the podium. Ducati will sort this effort out in time. They've dominated WSBK almost since it's inception. They have a much better chance at becoming relative in Supers than GP and I think Spies is better off leaving now.
Joined Apr 2011
900 Posts | 4+
somewhere else
levigarrett
They've had a number of performance/capacity/weight advantages during that time, haven't they? From the outside it looks like someone Italian was in charge and wanted them to be considered competitive, so gave them a lot of breaks to make sure they were at the front.
The rules were there, then they weren't competitive, so they gave them 200cc and they became competitive. Now they have a V4, but don't race it preferring to stick with their 200cc advantage on the V-twin.
To me, that says the 200cc is worth more to them than an equal playing field and 4 cylinders. They've removed the restrictors now, haven't they? And I won't be surprised if the 7kg weight penalty goes away too.
That they have a V4 that would be suitable to race in SBK but choose not to indicates that the rules need to be levelled and they are racing the 1199 because it gives them an advantage over the 1000cc bikes.
They've had a number of performance/capacity/weight advantages during that time, haven't they? From the outside it looks like someone Italian was in charge and wanted them to be considered competitive, so gave them a lot of breaks to make sure they were at the front.
The rules were there, then they weren't competitive, so they gave them 200cc and they became competitive. Now they have a V4, but don't race it preferring to stick with their 200cc advantage on the V-twin.
To me, that says the 200cc is worth more to them than an equal playing field and 4 cylinders. They've removed the restrictors now, haven't they? And I won't be surprised if the 7kg weight penalty goes away too.
That they have a V4 that would be suitable to race in SBK but choose not to indicates that the rules need to be levelled and they are racing the 1199 because it gives them an advantage over the 1000cc bikes.
kiddyK
So lemme get this straight. You think Ducati races a twin only because it advantages them in SBK? What V4 production engine do they place in their proddy line up? Which current bike can I purchase "new" with a V4 in it? The D16 was a one off. A bike produced for 1 year with a limited run.
SBK is a production series. Ducati produces twins. Their current top tier bike is a twin so that's what they race in SBK. Ducati were making twin cylinder bikes before SBK came around. As for the whole CC advantage thing......call Pov, you're right up his alley with that ..... I've moved on. I've spent enough time in the saddle of twins and 4's to know why one needs extra CC's to make comparable power.
So lemme get this straight. You think Ducati races a twin only because it advantages them in SBK? What V4 production engine do they place in their proddy line up? Which current bike can I purchase "new" with a V4 in it? The D16 was a one off. A bike produced for 1 year with a limited run.
SBK is a production series. Ducati produces twins. Their current top tier bike is a twin so that's what they race in SBK. Ducati were making twin cylinder bikes before SBK came around. As for the whole CC advantage thing......call Pov, you're right up his alley with that ..... I've moved on. I've spent enough time in the saddle of twins and 4's to know why one needs extra CC's to make comparable power.
Spies and Haystack on Duc's in WSBK? Double American marketing power! Spies has the personality of cardboard though.
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
Spies has a 2-years contract in MotoGP with Ducati, but if he doesn't accept the SBK offer he could end up on the Ducati production racer next year (i.e. this year's bike with more fuel and more engines...). In SBK, he'd probably be with Chaz Davies in a new team racing the factory 2014 Panigales.
Joined Apr 2011
900 Posts | 4+
somewhere else
Joined Oct 2006
3K Posts | 34+
Tar Heel State
Google translate buggar's it pretty good, but I got enough to understand Aspar are looking at the Honda proddy as an option....
http://www.gpone.com/en/2013100311689/Aspar-Martinez-parla-con-la-Honda.html
edit 2 Thanks Krops
http://www.motomatters.com/news/2013/10/03/stoner_impressed_with_honda_production_r.html
http://www.gpone.com/en/2013100311689/Aspar-Martinez-parla-con-la-Honda.html
edit 2 Thanks Krops
http://www.motomatters.com/news/2013/10/03/stoner_impressed_with_honda_production_r.html
levigarrett
Yes
The Desmosedici - that they made it for one year is irrelevant - they had a competitive 1000cc V4 that they decided, for whatever reason, not to race in a series full of 1000cc 4s. Why do you think that is?
I don't know a) why you are so het up about some questions I asked 2) why you seem to think I actually give one single flying .... that Ducati have decided to not play to the same rules as everyone else and III) Ducati can't make it on a level playing field, which is what started the discussion in the first place. They had a competitive engine that they don't race. The reason is obvious - they stand more chance of winning on a twin with a 200cc capacity advantage.
You don't like that, take it up with them. Personally I don't care for their products or the attitude of their delusional fan base.
Yes
The Desmosedici - that they made it for one year is irrelevant - they had a competitive 1000cc V4 that they decided, for whatever reason, not to race in a series full of 1000cc 4s. Why do you think that is?
I don't know a) why you are so het up about some questions I asked 2) why you seem to think I actually give one single flying .... that Ducati have decided to not play to the same rules as everyone else and III) Ducati can't make it on a level playing field, which is what started the discussion in the first place. They had a competitive engine that they don't race. The reason is obvious - they stand more chance of winning on a twin with a 200cc capacity advantage.
You don't like that, take it up with them. Personally I don't care for their products or the attitude of their delusional fan base.
kiddyK
Not necessarily in disagreement with all your points, but when the Ducati motogp bike looked all conquering and the Desmosedici came out they changed the WSBK rules to require a much higher number of bikes to be manufactured to qualify for homologation.
I think there is justice to the accusation that under the previous ownership/management there was to some extent a view that what was good for Ducati was good for WSBK. There was however nothing to stop other manufacturers running a V -twin which Honda did successfully for a time.
Not necessarily in disagreement with all your points, but when the Ducati motogp bike looked all conquering and the Desmosedici came out they changed the WSBK rules to require a much higher number of bikes to be manufactured to qualify for homologation.
I think there is justice to the accusation that under the previous ownership/management there was to some extent a view that what was good for Ducati was good for WSBK. There was however nothing to stop other manufacturers running a V -twin which Honda did successfully for a time.
The homologation. rules have been static for a long time, Ducati announced that the V4 would only be a limited run, as a limited run it could get around certain Euro legislation, they said the engine would not be suitable for mass production, it would just be a rich mans toy, they use a twin as it has been their identity for decades, the Superbike championship gave twins a cc advantage from its conception in 1988, and as for the 200cc advantage in the early days the japs were 750 and Ducati 851, Ducati themselves welcomed the fours being raised to 1000cc, and stayed competitive for a few years, only when the fours really developed did they get a 200cc allowance.
thedeal
Both our memories can be faulty it would seem. They definitely changed the homologation requirement from 1000 to 3000 in 2010 (WIKI, but in accordance with my memory).
I agree with what you say about the Desmosedici though. Ducati fans were wont to speculate at the time, but I don't think there was ever any intention or chance that Ducati would run the thing in WSBK, it was a very expensive by Japanese standards toy for the likes of Tom Cruise (who bought one) to cash in on the 2007 championship win.
Both our memories can be faulty it would seem. They definitely changed the homologation requirement from 1000 to 3000 in 2010 (WIKI, but in accordance with my memory).
I agree with what you say about the Desmosedici though. Ducati fans were wont to speculate at the time, but I don't think there was ever any intention or chance that Ducati would run the thing in WSBK, it was a very expensive by Japanese standards toy for the likes of Tom Cruise (who bought one) to cash in on the 2007 championship win.
You are correct they did raise the amount required, however this was to stop any more embarrassing situations, brought about by small builders like Bimota, Foggy Petronas and Benelli, who had got around the rules by making the initial batch to be allowed to race and then not complying over the next two years.
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
<span style="font-size:14px;I think Ducati always raced twins in SBK for the simple reason that they sell twins; there would be no point in racing a bike unrecognizable by Ducati owners <span style="font-size:14px;in a stock-derived series<span style="font-size:14px;.
<span style="font-size:14px;Same applies to the Japanese, they race IL4s because those are the bikes they sell. They could race twins (as Honda did for some time) but that's not their typical product so it doesn't stick.
<span style="font-size:14px;We have had close racing and hardly fought championships with Ducati twins pitted against the 4 cylinders, and looking at results one can only conclude the formula worked reasonably well. <span style="font-size:14px;There were also balancing provisions to prevent any excess of supremacy. <span style="font-size:14px;At the end of the day there was s<span style="font-size:14px;ome advantage for twins at some track, some advantage for 4 cyl. at others. <span style="font-size:14px;At tracks like Monza for instance the twins didn't stand a chance against the 4 cylinders. Riders could make the difference.
But all this is the past already: read the new EVO regulations, effective from 2015:
http://motomatters.com/press_release/2013/08/09/fim_superbike_world_championship_2014_ru.html
<span style="font-size:14px;Same applies to the Japanese, they race IL4s because those are the bikes they sell. They could race twins (as Honda did for some time) but that's not their typical product so it doesn't stick.
<span style="font-size:14px;We have had close racing and hardly fought championships with Ducati twins pitted against the 4 cylinders, and looking at results one can only conclude the formula worked reasonably well. <span style="font-size:14px;There were also balancing provisions to prevent any excess of supremacy. <span style="font-size:14px;At the end of the day there was s<span style="font-size:14px;ome advantage for twins at some track, some advantage for 4 cyl. at others. <span style="font-size:14px;At tracks like Monza for instance the twins didn't stand a chance against the 4 cylinders. Riders could make the difference.
But all this is the past already: read the new EVO regulations, effective from 2015:
http://motomatters.com/press_release/2013/08/09/fim_superbike_world_championship_2014_ru.html
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
Aprilia is not giving Dall'Igna the budget he has requested to build a competitive MotoGP bike. He however wants to be in MotoGP, and the Ducati offer is still on his desk. If he chooses to go to Borgo Panigale, Aspar could decide to follow him. So Nicky Hayden (who has already signed a contract with Aspar) could end up on a Ducati again!
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