Mat Oxley on the Michelin tires

JPSLotus · Sep 30, 2016

JohnnyKnockdown said:
By this woe is me logic, every rider on the grid should just quit because of Rossi. This is what motivates most athletes
This is a boner driven narrative anyway. Stoner went out with one of the biggest contracts, on the best bike and still beating Rossi. You would have to be delusional to think he left because the series was skued against him.

Who said anything about woe is me?

Everything isn't all it's cracked up to be when you get to the top. He didn't hang around when he realized that it wasn't as great as it appeared looking from the outside in. He was ready to leave at the end of the 2011 season and got roped into one more year. A weaker person would have stuck it out. Look at the guys that cycle around at the back of the grid who are just happy to be in the show. They think riding a bike, no matter how godawful (RCV1000R, RCV-RS) is worth it.

Why should he be like other athletes? You have a preoccupation with this. He was never like the others, which is exactly why he left of his own choice. That to me sums up who Casey is.

michaelm · Sep 30, 2016

JohnnyKnockdown said:
The elephant in the room is invisible. This is my exact point. I was referring to Marquez and you didnt even adnowledge him. Jp is rushing to post photos of Stoner with his elbow down because god forbid we give MM credit for evolving styles.

He has already far surpassed what Stoner was able to do on the Honda. Why is Stoners second year on the Honda dismissed as not being a failure. It was his mental error that forced him to miss 5 races due to injury.
You know my thoughts on the Duc. He won in a transition year when Honda produced its least successful bike in the last 15-20 yrs.

Sure MM may end up the very greatest, if there is such a thing, he needs a little more longevity, which is what Stoner doesn't have and will never have. MM will have proved himself, by the end of this season, at least fairly definitively greater than Stoner I strongly suspect.

Again your whole argument is nonsensical. Stoner rode 2 near perfect seasons and 38 great races to win 2 titles and 38 races. He was a fantastic rider, end of story. Who the .... are you to call that failure?
If he didn't have his act together in 2012, he didn't have his act together in 2012. So what, he very definitely did in 2007 and 2011, which was enough for him to prove whatever he wanted to prove to or about himself to his personal satisfaction. I am sure he doesn't give a flying .... that he doesn't meet your more exacting standards, and neither do I particularly, I just enjoy picking apart weak arguments which would seem to some extent to be motivated by petty malice.

By your argument as I think I have said to you before Joe Montana is a horrible failure because he only won the title in 4 seasons out of 16, and yes he is more akin to Marc Marquez or Valentino Rossi than he is to Casey Stoner.

michaelm · Sep 30, 2016

JPSLotus said:
Who said anything about woe is me?

Everything isn't all it's cracked up to be when you get to the top. He didn't hang around when he realized that it wasn't as great as it appeared looking from the outside in. He was ready to leave at the end of the 2011 season and got roped into one more year. A weaker person would have stuck it out. Look at the guys that cycle around at the back of the grid who are just happy to be in the show. They think riding a bike, no matter how godawful (RCV1000R, RCV-RS) is worth it.

Why should he be like other athletes? You have a preoccupation with this. He was never like the others, which is exactly why he left of his own choice. That to me sums up who Casey is.

Freddie Spencer, similar to Casey imo when they were both at their respective peaks (except that he managed the unbelievable in the modern era feat of winning a 250 title as well as one of his premier class titles in the same year) chose the opposite course, which did not exactly prove Stoner's choice to be incorrect.

Gaz · Oct 1, 2016

michaelm said:
Freddie Spencer, similar to Casey imo when they were both at their respective peaks (except that he managed the unbelievable in the modern era feat of winning a 250 title as well as one if his premier class titles in the same year) chose the opposite course, which did not exactly prove Stoner's choice to be incorrect.

Funny you mention Spencer Mike.

In one of the forums of which I am a member there was a general discussion surrounding riders and Spencer was mentioned for the very feat of achieving two titles in the same year and how difficult to achieve that was back in that day, never mind trying it today.

Yes, this opened the floodgates with some 'bias' fans suggesting that the DORNA are so against Rossi (you can see where this was going and from where it has come) that they changed the rules as otherwise Valentino would have won far more titles because (and this is a word for word) iif that guy Spencer who nobody has ever heard of could do it, imagine what a rider like Rossi could do'

It was a few weeks ago now where this occurred but it is interesting the levels of misinformation that is accepted as fact where some are concerned as (IMO) here the fact that Spencer achieved the feat itself and his subsequent issues and demise show how damn difficult that feat was.

A brilliant feat and one to often forgotten in the day and age of the super-personality

michaelm · Oct 1, 2016

Gaz said:
Funny you mention Spencer Mike.

In one of the forums of which I am a member there was a general discussion surrounding riders and Spencer was mentioned for the very feat of achieving two titles in the same year and how difficult to achieve that was back in that day, never mind trying it today.

Yes, this opened the floodgates with some 'bias' fans suggesting that the DORNA are so against Rossi (you can see where this was going and from where it has come) that they changed the rules as otherwise Valentino would have won far more titles because (and this is a word for word) iif that guy Spencer who nobody has ever heard of could do it, imagine what a rider like Rossi could do'

It was a few weeks ago now where this occurred but it is interesting the levels of misinformation that is accepted as fact where some are concerned as (IMO) here the fact that Spencer achieved the feat itself and his subsequent issues and demise show how damn difficult that feat was.

A brilliant feat and one to often forgotten in the day and age of the super-personality

I admit it is a sign of age but I regard Fast Freddie as being "modern era", and I am actually not sure his feat would be much more difficult now than when Freddie managed it, as opposed to when Ago et al did it, although I regard Ago's 8th 500 title as modern era (ie Japanese factories involved) as well.

Arrabbiata1 · Oct 1, 2016

This is why I struggle with the 'nine times' ......... Recently Suzi Perry actually corrected herself when she initially committed the cardinal sin of referring to Valentino as a seven times WC. Ago was actually in the paddock at the time - a reminder that whatever narrative you choose to create, it will never fifteen.

Incidentally Mike, Gaz, remember Lawson also 'quit' - although arguably beyond his peak as a rider.

Goku · Oct 1, 2016

Imagine Marc wins this year's title and next four. Assuming Rossi still racing will Nick Harris call MM a seven time world champion and Rossi a nine time world champion. Hmmm

p4p1 · Oct 1, 2016

Goku said:
Imagine Marc wins this year's title and next four. Assuming Rossi still racing will Nick Harris call MM a seven time world champion and Rossi a nine time world champion. Hmmm

I agree 100% and I also think there's a serious chance at that. Next year could be a great year for him with Jorge at Ducati, Rossi older, Vinaeles an unknown on the yamaha(and I think slightly unknown as a rider due to the fact we don't have a gauge of just how good the Suzuki is), Rins in his first year, Iannone is another Unknown, he's a crasher but on the easier to ride Suzuki he could be much more consistent.

I'm just not convinced Vinaels and Rins are up to the same standard as Marquez and Honda will get it right as well. But do we really think Marquez at 19 or 20 has trouble beating Zarco or Rabat over a season?

Gaz · Oct 1, 2016

Arrabbiata1 said:
This is why I struggle with the 'nine times' ......... Recently Suzi Perry actually corrected herself when she initially committed the cardinal sin of referring to Valentino as a seven times WC. Ago was actually in the paddock at the time - a reminder that whatever narrative you choose to create, it will never fifteen.

It is one of the reasons why I always mention Nieto as well.

Some are so focused on Rossi equalling or beating Agostini they seem to forget the 'middle man' that he has to beat first (in terms of total championships)

Arrabbiata1 said:
Incidentally Mike, Gaz, remember Lawson also 'quit' - although arguably beyond his peak as a rider.

Lawson is one of my favourite riders (most of my all time faves are that era) and while some may try to diminish his achievements that ride and race win on the Cagiva sticks in the memory (as does that bike, gorgeous).

Thing is I guess Arrib, any athlete who can choose their time to leave their chosen sport is better off than an athlete who is chosen by others or by accident to leave their sport.

michaelm · Oct 1, 2016

Arrabbiata1 said:
This is why I struggle with the 'nine times' ......... Recently Suzi Perry actually corrected herself when she initially committed the cardinal sin of referring to Valentino as a seven times WC. Ago was actually in the paddock at the time - a reminder that whatever narrative you choose to create, it will never fifteen.

Incidentally Mike, Gaz, remember Lawson also 'quit' - although arguably beyond his peak as a rider.

Then on the other hand there is also Rossi's own statement in relation to Dovi, to the effect that he had won nothing.

JohnnyKnockdown · Oct 2, 2016

michaelm said:
Sure MM may end up the very greatest, if there is such a thing, he needs a little more longevity, which is what Stoner doesn't have and will never have. MM will have proved himself, by the end of this season, at least fairly definitively greater than Stoner I strongly suspect.

Again your whole argument is nonsensical. Stoner rode 2 near perfect seasons and 38 great races to win 2 titles and 38 races. He was a fantastic rider, end of story. Who the .... are you to call that failure?
If he didn't have his act together in 2012, he didn't have his act together in 2012. So what, he very definitely did in 2007 and 2011, which was enough for him to prove whatever he wanted to prove to or about himself to his personal satisfaction. I am sure he doesn't give a flying .... that he doesn't meet your more exacting standards, and neither do I particularly, I just enjoy picking apart weak arguments which would seem to some extent to be motivated by petty malice.

By your argument as I think I have said to you before Joe Montana is a horrible failure because he only won the title in 4 seasons out of 16, and yes he is more akin to Marc Marquez or Valentino Rossi than he is to Casey Stoner.

I was fortunate enough to see Matt Mladin many times, in the latter half of his career.
The Daytona AMA paddock was as fan friendly as could be and you are able to see these guys up close and personal. Mladin was one of the fiercest competitors I have ever seen.
What you fail to understand about my thoughts on Stoner is that it's not "petty malice" I have a complete lack of respect for Stoner as an athlete. I share the same sentiment about Eric Bostrom as well. I don't watch sports for "hot wives, beautiful children" are anything personal. I don't care about the human aspect of athletes lives any more than they do mine. They are there to do a job and nothing else.
If they are going to half ... their job and piss away their talent then I'm happy to see them .... off. I want to see athletes like Mladin, or Tom Brady,who would eat their own children to win a competition.
Maybe were just wired different Mike. When the NFL plays its human interest pieces on players every sunday, I change the channel. I could give zero ..... about who they are. All I know if Stoner had Mladin's drive and competitiveness, we would be having conversations about Stoner being the GOAT. Instead, here we are 4 years later talking about how big his house is. It's a shame really, but you will never see it that way

p4p1 · Oct 2, 2016

JohnnyKnockdown said:
I was fortunate enough to see Matt Mladin many times, in the latter half of his career.
The Daytona AMA paddock was as fan friendly as could be and you are able to see these guys up close and personal. Mladin was one of the fiercest competitors I have ever seen.
What you fail to understand about my thoughts on Stoner is that it's not "petty malice" I have a complete lack of respect for Stoner as an athlete. I share the same sentiment about Eric Bostrom as well. I don't watch sports for "hot wives, beautiful children" are anything personal. I don't care about the human aspect of athletes lives any more than they do mine. They are there to do a job and nothing else.
If they are going to half ... their job and piss away their talent then I'm happy to see them .... off. I want to see athletes like Mladin, or Tom Brady,who would eat their own children to win a competition.
Maybe were just wired different Mike. When the NFL plays its human interest pieces on players every sunday, I change the channel. I could give zero ..... about who they are. All I know if Stoner had Mladin's drive and competitiveness, we would be having conversations about Stoner being the GOAT. Instead, here we are 4 years later talking about how big his house is. It's a shame really, but you will never see it that way

Mladins drive and compeitivesness that never saw him leave AMA for superbikes or compete against the best in the GP?

birdman · Oct 2, 2016

Mladin quit MotoGP (500cc) after one year on the equivalent of a Ducati (Cagiva) because it as all just too hard and wasted his talent in 'safe' AMA where he could get paid more. I have nothing against him but to say you respect what he achieved more than Stoner? Good wind up. I respect Goubert more too he was really dedicated to achieving that next high.

JohnnyKnockdown · Oct 2, 2016

p4p1 said:
Mladins drive and compeitivesness that never saw him leave AMA for superbikes or compete against the best in the GP?

Mladin never went to WSBK because he believed the talent was no better than AMA.
After Spies beat him and won WSBK Mladin felt his beliefs were vindicated.
He called GP out for the ........ it is. He learned from his Cagiva tenure that if you weren't on a factory bike you were ....... He said he wasnt going to GP to drive around midpack, restrained by the limits of his bike
This is all besides the point anyways. My statement was about Mladins mentality as a competitor, which is as fierce and relentless as you will ever see

JohnnyKnockdown · Oct 2, 2016

birdman said:
Mladin quit MotoGP (500cc) after one year on the equivalent of a Ducati (Cagiva) because it as all just too hard and wasted his talent in 'safe' AMA where he could get paid more. I have nothing against him but to say you respect what he achieved more than Stoner? Good wind up. I respect Goubert more too he was really dedicated to achieving that next high.

Not his achievements Birdy. His mentality.

danski · Oct 2, 2016

JohnnyKnockdown said:
Mladin never went to WSBK because he believed the talent was no better than AMA.
After Spies beat him and won WSBK Mladin felt his beliefs were vindicated.
He called GP out for the ........ it is. He learned from his Cagiva tenure that if you weren't on a factory bike you were ....... He said he wasnt going to GP to drive around midpack, restrained by the limits of his bike
This is all besides the point anyways. My statement was about Mladins mentality as a competitor, which is as fierce and relentless as you will ever see

So he should really have put that 'fierce and relentless' competitiveness against the best riders in the world. Stick with it and earn your way to a better ride if you have the capabilities, if not disappear into a series with no real competition.

JohnnyKnockdown · Oct 2, 2016

Daniboy said:
So he should really have put that 'fierce and relentless' competitiveness against the best riders in the world. Stick with it and earn your way to a better ride if you have the capabilities, if not disappear into a series with no real competition.

Since when are alien bike seats chosen by meritocracy?

danski · Oct 2, 2016

JohnnyKnockdown said:
Since when are alien bike seats chosen by meritocracy?

Ben Spies?

Gaz · Oct 2, 2016

p4p1 said:
Mladins drive and compeitivesness that never saw him leave AMA for superbikes or compete against the best in the GP?

Mladin left AMA and went to Cagiva ............ had a poor season as did near all on the Cagiva (success was to follow) at the time and he then returned to AMA where it has been said, he earnt more per season than many MotoGP riders

JohnnyKnockdown said:
They are there to do a job and nothing else.

And that is what Stoner (and Schwantz etc) did ........... their job and when then lost the enjoyment of it, they left just as you or I or any other chump who has to work can do should we so choose.

The difference being that these guys got paid more so could leave at a far younger age than you or I with that younger age and financial situation (together with their successes) opening doors that you or I can only dream of (lest I win lotto and you some US lottery).

Tell me one person that would not like to leave their work if they are not enjoying it (which can be that it is no longer providing challenges, their work environment may have changed etc)

JohnnyKnockdown said:
Mladin never went to WSBK because he believed the talent was no better than AMA.
After Spies beat him and won WSBK Mladin felt his beliefs were vindicated.
He called GP out for the ........ it is. He learned from his Cagiva tenure that if you weren't on a factory bike you were ....... He said he wasnt going to GP to drive around midpack, restrained by the limits of his bike
This is all besides the point anyways. My statement was about Mladins mentality as a competitor, which is as fierce and relentless as you will ever see

Mladin was and remains a total prick but yes, it is this being a total prick that gave him the drive to succeed in his chosen sport within AMA.

I have met him a few times and know many that have had dealings with him, all (and I have said this before) call him the only full body ....... they have ever met.

But, in terms of fierceness of competitor he was brutal.

Gaz · Oct 2, 2016

Daniboy said:
So he should really have put that 'fierce and relentless' competitiveness against the best riders in the world. Stick with it and earn your way to a better ride if you have the capabilities, if not disappear into a series with no real competition.

Good point Dani.

I mean, there is a person called a quitter who took on the best starting with a lowly graded bike and tyres who achieved that which he set out, leaves the sport but to some he quit.

Then we have another who went to a factory team immediately, achieved little, left the sport to be the big fish in the smaller pond but because that person appears to have a larger, fiercer mental drive he is somehow a better example.

I happily see the point about the drive of Mladin, but at the same time there is a limit to what many people will appreciate in a sportsman and to many in Australia, Mladin is not the shining example

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