Lorenzo

misfit said:

I recall JL having quite the battle with MM last year, I think in Austria, and it was JL that came out on top. When JL had that Ducati 'purring', he was doing better than Dovi.

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There's no such thing as Ducati "purring". You remind me of people who say Stoner won his 2007 title due to the Bridgestone tires.

Ducati spent millions and millions to make a bike for JL's needs while in the meantime he tried to adapt to the one he had. The two things collided in mid-2018 and JL started to win, which to be honest I was really glad to see happening.

But Austria last year was literally the only race where JL beat MM on the Duc on a proper dogfight. Dovi did it 7 times between 2017 and 2018 and won another 3 races (for a total of 10) without direct dogfights with MM.

In the exact same time span JL won 3 races in total on the Ducati.

10 to 3. Numbers are not debatable

Holypuck said:

I agree with the general concept but not with some things you say.

Rossi is racing because he enjoys it and on that I can't blame him. Of course he needs some "fire" to be competitive but he knows himself he most likely will not get that infamous 10th title.

I do think the Yamaha is holding him back a little but I also do think with a fully competitive bike he'd fight for podiums more often, prolly get a win here and there but that would be it.

While (referring also to some of your posts before this one) it is not debatable who's the best rider between Rossi and Dovizioso (9 titles against 1) I disagree about what you say about Dovi and the Ducati.

Dovizioso is basically the only rider who has been capable of beating Marquez in direct "combat" and/or to keep up with him on several occasions. The bike DID help him for sure but it wasn't the only reason.

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Not going to be a popular thought but I have to say that I respectfully disagree on some of this - here's why.

It is absolutely fair to say that Dovi has taken it to Marquez over the last few years, absolutely no doubt of that but twhen you look across the entire career trajectory it took until Cristian Gabbarini and the much maligned Jorge Lorenzo arrived at Ducati for things to turn in Dovi's favour.

Prior to that he had 2 premier class wins despite riding factory bikes for much of that time (2 wins in 7 years on factory bikes up until season end 2016).

I like Dovi as much as the next guy but if we are to say that Lorenzo needs things to be perfect (not you, speaking generically from threads), we cannot overlook the performances of Dovi which would seem to indicate much the same, just that the requirements of the two are (Dovi vs JL) are different.

Sorry, while I understand that Dovi is rather a flavour of the month facts indicate that he is no different from many who need the perfect bike, where we have seen some others ride bikes that are far from perfect to results.

IMO here, but for me the only year where Dovi really shone as possibly being 'special' was in his tech 3 years as what he was able to do there was quite good.

Flame suit on

Gaz said:

Not going to be a popular thought but I have to say that I respectfully disagree on some of this - here's why.

It is absolutely fair to say that Dovi has taken it to Marquez over the last few years, absolutely no doubt of that but twhen you look across the entire career trajectory it took until Cristian Gabbarini and the much maligned Jorge Lorenzo arrived at Ducati for things to turn in Dovi's favour.

Prior to that he had 2 premier class wins despite riding factory bikes for much of that time (2 wins in 7 years on factory bikes up until season end 2016).

I like Dovi as much as the next guy but if we are to say that Lorenzo needs things to be perfect (not you, speaking generically from threads), we cannot overlook the performances of Dovi which would seem to indicate much the same, just that the requirements of the two are (Dovi vs JL) are different.

Sorry, while I understand that Dovi is rather a flavour of the month facts indicate that he is no different from many who need the perfect bike, where we have seen some others ride bikes that are far from perfect to results.

IMO here, but for me the only year where Dovi really shone as possibly being 'special' was in his tech 3 years as what he was able to do there was quite good.

Flame suit on

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What flame suit man?
Forum threads are also called "discussions" as people exchange opinions. If we all had the same ones it would be a sect cult.

This being said: what I am saying is that IMHO Lorenzo has his one big minus in his little adaptability to a bike when the said bike is not set as he reckons it should be for his needs.

Dovi hopped on the Ducati back when no one even wanted to hear the word "Ducati" among top riders and, through struggling and of course with the help on Dall'Igna's arrival, helped it become the winning machine that it is today.

Lorenzo's 2 years in red certainly helped A LOT the bike development as well, there's no way I'd ever deny that, but at the end of the day on the very same bike in the very same time span Dovi has won over 3x times more races that JL did and, considering the level of the comptetition, that's remarkable to say the least.

Holypuck said:

What flame suit man?
Forum threads are also called "discussions" as people exchange opinions. If we all had the same ones it would be a sect cult.

This being said: what I am saying is that IMHO Lorenzo has his one big minus in his little adaptability to a bike when the said bike is not set as he reckons it should be for his needs.

Dovi hopped on the Ducati back when no one even wanted to hear the word "Ducati" among top riders and, through struggling and of course with the help on Dall'Igna's arrival, helped it become the winning machine that it is today.

Lorenzo's 2 years in red certainly helped A LOT the bike development as well, there's no way I'd ever deny that, but at the end of the day on the very same bike in the very same time span Dovi has won over 3x times more races that JL did and, considering the level of the comptetition, that's remarkable to say the least.

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Agreed. Ala ducati/dovi/Lorenzo. But big difference = Lorenzo destroyed the field when he got the balance to his liking. Dovi has never been able to do same iirc. If Lorenzo can get his mind around the RCV, well good luck to everyone. Like Lorenzo has often shown, can't fight a man you cannot catch.

Barbedwirebikerr said:

Agreed. Ala ducati/dovi/Lorenzo. But big difference = Lorenzo destroyed the field when he got the balance to his liking. Dovi has never been able to do same iirc. If Lorenzo can get his mind around the RCV, well good luck to everyone. Like Lorenzo has often shown, can't fight a man you cannot catch.

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100%.

What I forgot to point out in the post you quoted: every medal has 2 faces. JL's positive side to the negative of not being versatile on a bike not perfectly set is the fact that when the bike is as he needs it, well he can pretty much stop for beer during a race and still win it.

(the stop-for-beer thing actually happened in a WC motocross race a few decades ago, I believe the rider was Hakan Carlqvist )

I think it’s worth mentioning that in races where Dovi beat Marquez in a fight he had bike advantages due to the tracks that favoured him and/or the Ducati and didn’t favour Marquez and/or Honda.
It doesn’t take away from it being a massive accomplishment to beat Marquez in a straight fight but of the 7, 2 of them have been at Qatar which is a good track for the Duc and Dovi seems to enjoy while it’s one of Marquez’s least favourite. Another was at the Red Bull Ring which Ducati could have designed themselves and another in Japan in the wet which was at the time a track that clearly favoured the Ducati. But my god that overtake he made in Japan 2017 was ....... phenomenal though. When the track favours Marquez and Honda, Dovi is nowhere near Marquez to fight him for the win.

I just think it’s a statistic that doesn’t tell the whole story.

p4p1 said:

I think it’s worth mentioning that in races where Dovi beat Marquez in a fight he had bike advantages due to the tracks that favoured him and/or the Ducati and didn’t favour Marquez and/or Honda.
It doesn’t take away from it being a massive accomplishment to beat Marquez in a straight fight but of the 7, 2 of them have been at Qatar which is a good track for the Duc and Dovi seems to enjoy while it’s one of Marquez’s least favourite. Another was at the Red Bull Ring which Ducati could have designed themselves and another in Japan in the wet which was at the time a track that clearly favoured the Ducati. But my god that overtake he made in Japan 2017 was ....... phenomenal though. When the track favours Marquez and Honda, Dovi is nowhere near Marquez to fight him for the win.

I just think it’s a statistic that doesn’t tell the whole story.

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Undeniable. But wins are wins.

I ain't saying that Dovi is better than Marquez, obviously. Only that it was impressive how we was able to beat him several times, which I myself (a Dovi fan since forever) would have never expected until I saw it happen.

misfit said:

I think he's past his peak and likely knows this. Despite this, I still think he's still the better rider than Dovi. Dovi challenged for the title because of the bike he's riding. The Yamaha hasn't been up to the snuff for the last couple seasons. Like Dovi, Rossi would need a dominant bike to have a chance at taking the title home

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I really dislike this line of thinking. This is the same thing all the Rossi fans were pushing when Stoner was kicking ...; the old, the bike is winning the races. If the Ducati was THAT good, why aren't other Ducati riders consistently challenging Marquez???

Prior to getting with Ducati - Dovi was never promoted as #1 Rider and shuttled around from team-to-team yearly, never able to be with the same crew and bike long enough to realize his potential. Why people have this need to pidgeonhole him as a lesser rider is beyond me.

Keshav said:

I really dislike this line of thinking. This is the same thing all the Rossi fans were pushing when Stoner was kicking ...; the old, the bike is winning the races. If the Ducati was THAT good, why aren't other Ducati riders consistently challenging Marquez???

Prior to getting with Ducati - Dovi was never promoted as #1 Rider and shuttled around from team-to-team yearly, never able to be with the same crew and bike long enough to realize his potential. Why people have this need to pidgeonhole him as a lesser rider is beyond me.

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You can't finish 10th because that is your pace when a track doesn't suit you if in late season contention for the title (EDIT 13th actually PI 2017). Not something you saw with Rossi, Marquez, Stoner, or Lorenzo in his years at Yamaha.

Hypotheticals are always just that of course, but what do you reckon Stoner would be doing on this Ducati?.

Holypuck said:

Undeniable. But wins are wins.

I ain't saying that Dovi is better than Marquez, obviously. Only that it was impressive how we was able to beat him several times, which I myself (a Dovi fan since forever) would have never expected until I saw it happen.

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I know you weren’t saying that, just that IMO that he has beaten Marquez in duels is a bit overplayed. He’s obviously the only one who has been able to do it on any sort of consistent basis but he does need the stars to align so to speak.

michaelm said:

You can't finish 10th because that is your pace when a track doesn't suit you if in late season contention for the title (EDIT 13th actually PI 2017). Not something you saw with Rossi, Marquez, Stoner, or Lorenzo in his years at Yamaha.

Hypotheticals are always just that of course, but what do you reckon Stoner would be doing on this Ducati?.

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That's based on the certainty that he finished 13th simply because the track didn't suit him. I don't know that anyone can say that was the situation. You've been following the sport as long as any of us and know that a bad tire, a defective clutch, a loose seat etc etc can cause and anomalous bad finish.

I'd suggest that the Ducati development has been in a state of dramatic flux and when the techs are looking to pull a rabbit out of the hat on Sunday morning, they sometimes take big risks - you get a few instances where it's a dead rabbit.

That 13th was actually in 2015 and 2017

At PI:
Dovi took a 3rd in 2011 (on the Honda)
a 4th in 2012
a 4th in 2014
a 4th in 2016
Which suggests to me that while PI may not be his favorite track - it's not a bogey track for him either.

It's easy enough to speculate that Stoner having overcome all the handling idiosyncracies of the early Ducati and then going on to kick ... overnight on the Honda, could have stayed at Ducati (using the current iteration Ducati) and won just as much as he did on the Honda.

Keshav said:

Prior to getting with Ducati - Dovi was never promoted as #1 Rider and shuttled around from team-to-team yearly, never able to be with the same crew and bike long enough to realize his potential. Why people have this need to pidgeonhole him as a lesser rider is beyond me.

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Respectfully disagree, he did a year on a customer Honda before getting 2 full years on a factory Repsol Honda, I didn't include his 3rd season as although he was on a factory bike, he was not cared for by Honda (the only season you saw 3 Repsol Honda's on the grid!)

He had 2 seasons on a bike with the same crew and was solidly outperformed by Pedrosa, and destroyed by Stoner in 2011 who was in his first year on the Honda.

He isn't a lesser rider, they are all great riders. However I think his performances over the last few years have simply been him adapting to using the strengths of the Ducati. If he was to be classed in the same level as Lorenz, Rossi, Stoner, Marquez, then he would have had to have won at least one GP championship in that time.

#22 said:

Respectfully disagree, he did a year on a customer Honda before getting 2 full years on a factory Repsol Honda, I didn't include his 3rd season as although he was on a factory bike, he was not cared for by Honda (the only season you saw 3 Repsol Honda's on the grid!)

He had 2 seasons on a bike with the same crew and was solidly outperformed by Pedrosa, and destroyed by Stoner in 2011 who was in his first year on the Honda.

He isn't a lesser rider, they are all great riders. However I think his performances over the last few years have simply been him adapting to using the strengths of the Ducati. If he was to be classed in the same level as Lorenz, Rossi, Stoner, Marquez, then he would have had to have won at least one GP championship in that time.

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There's no way Dovi was getting the same backing and attention to detail as Pedrosa or Stoner. It just doesn't work that way. HRC clearly did not assign equal value to Dovi - nor quite apparently - were they willing to devote equal resources to him - as evidenced by the way they weaseled out of their contractual obligation to him going into the following season despite the fact that he met their stated goals.

I'm not one to give credence to conspiracies - but empirically - it seemed pretty clear that Dovi's HRC bikes were notably, magically faster whenever Pedrosa was away having another surgery.

I for one have never opined that Dovi was as good as Stoner; merely that his potential to shine was not realized because he always suffered from lesser teammate status.

The customer Honda was . . . just that. Not as bad as when Stoner was on one with zero ability to choose tires that were mismatched, but customer Honda nonetheless. And again - it was not the HRC crew.

He was always the #2 or fallback guy or the parts donkey. Confidence-wise, the repeated seasons of that are not an easy thing to rise above. It took time, at Ducati for him to adjust mentally to being Top Dog and time to work out the kinks in the Ducati and realize his potential. Not "Alien" Stoner grade talent, but still, the guy who's taken Phenom Marquez to task more than any other rider and he's done it on the Ducati, the "bike that doesn't want to turn".

Holypuck said:

What flame suit man?
Forum threads are also called "discussions" as people exchange opinions. If we all had the same ones it would be a sect cult.

This being said: what I am saying is that IMHO Lorenzo has his one big minus in his little adaptability to a bike when the said bike is not set as he reckons it should be for his needs.

Dovi hopped on the Ducati back when no one even wanted to hear the word "Ducati" among top riders and, through struggling and of course with the help on Dall'Igna's arrival, helped it become the winning machine that it is today.

Lorenzo's 2 years in red certainly helped A LOT the bike development as well, there's no way I'd ever deny that, but at the end of the day on the very same bike in the very same time span Dovi has won over 3x times more races that JL did and, considering the level of the comptetition, that's remarkable to say the least.

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You are right when you say across the same time space ............. but is that a fair comparison given Dovi had a number of years experience (4 years prior to Lorenzo's arrival) with Ducati and many of the very same technicians head start?

To me, once the bike was sorted in a manner that suited or was close to suiting Dovi and given his longevity on the bike, then he SHOULD have produced results better than Lorenzo up until Lorenzo has gotten to speed on the bike which I readily agree should have been quicker but as history shows us, he is not the quickest adapter.

Do I see the results in 2017/2018 as remarkable, well to be honest only in how slow JL was to acclimatise rather than any results for Dovi.

Gaz said:

You are right when you say across the same time space ............. but is that a fair comparison given Dovi had a number of years experience (4 years prior to Lorenzo's arrival) with Ducati and many of the very same technicians head start?

To me, once the bike was sorted in a manner that suited or was close to suiting Dovi and given his longevity on the bike, then he SHOULD have produced results better than Lorenzo up until Lorenzo has gotten to speed on the bike which I readily agree should have been quicker but as history shows us, he is not the quickest adapter.

Do I see the results in 2017/2018 as remarkable, well to be honest only in how slow JL was to acclimatise rather than any results for Dovi.

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The yardstick by which I measure Dovi’s performance in those seasons is his ability to repeatedly take the fight to Marquez who I believe will shortly outstrip Rossi and Ago and Doohan as the greatest talent of our time.

Keshav said:

There's no way Dovi was getting the same backing and attention to detail as Pedrosa or Stoner. It just doesn't work that way. HRC clearly did not assign equal value to Dovi - nor quite apparently - were they willing to devote equal resources to him - as evidenced by the way they weaseled out of their contractual obligation to him going into the following season despite the fact that he met their stated goals.

I'm not one to give credence to conspiracies - but empirically - it seemed pretty clear that Dovi's HRC bikes were notably, magically faster whenever Pedrosa was away having another surgery.

I for one have never opined that Dovi was as good as Stoner; merely that his potential to shine was not realized because he always suffered from lesser teammate status.

The customer Honda was . . . just that. Not as bad as when Stoner was on one with zero ability to choose tires that were mismatched, but customer Honda nonetheless. And again - it was not the HRC crew.

He was always the #2 or fallback guy or the parts donkey. Confidence-wise, the repeated seasons of that are not an easy thing to rise above. It took time, at Ducati for him to adjust mentally to being Top Dog and time to work out the kinks in the Ducati and realize his potential. Not "Alien" Stoner grade talent, but still, the guy who's taken Phenom Marquez to task more than any other rider and he's done it on the Ducati, the "bike that doesn't want to turn".

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As a corollary are HRC giving Lorenzo a dud bike now?.

Not much doubt that probably because of the Repsol sponsorship Pedrosa was given preference over Hayden. By Dovi’s time they would have taken a title any way they could get one imo hence chasing Stoner and I don’t see why they wouldn’t have given Dovi every chance prior to Stoner’s advent. If you want to argue peak Stoner was the greatest rider ever you won’t offend me, but Dovi should have been able to race Pedrosa closer. Beating MM in last corner moves is highly impressive of course, but the 2017 Honda was fairly diabolical as shown by every other Honda rider’s results, and not necessarily up for a last corner stoush, with MM also no longer in win or crash mode.

He may deserve to be ranked at Randy Mamola level imo which you would doubtless agree would make him no slouch.
(EDITED for syntax).

michaelm said:

As a corollary are HRC giving Lorenzo a dud bike now?.

Not much doubt that probably because of the Repsol sponsorship Pedrosa was given preference over Hayden. By Dovi’s time there they would take a title any way they could get one imo hence chasing Stoner and I don’t see why they wouldn’t have given Dovi every chance prior to Stoner’s advent. If you want to argue peak Stoner was the greatest rider ever you won’t offend me of course, but he should have been able to race Pedrosa closer. Beating MM in last corner moves is highly impressive of course, but the 2017 Honda was
fairly diabolical as shown by every other Honda rider’s results, and not necessarily up for a last corner stoush and MM was no longer in win or crash mode.

He may deserve to be ranked at Randy Mamola level imo which you would agree would make him no slouch.

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I'd never go so far as to say Dovi had a "dud" bike. It did seem tho - that there was an appearance or perception that HRC were dialing back his power on the days Dani was on the track. Certainly not saying that it's just equally possible Dani was the better rider on those days.

Supposing that were the case, one could say that Dovi's performance on the Honda was still impressive - given what we now know (or believe we know) about the Honda's handling issues, given his relative consistency, in view of the fact that Pedrosa had been getting carte blanch, red carpet treatment from Repsol since 2006, without benefit of ever having won a championship. And as I have (beating a dead horse?) said, there's no way Second-Bananna Dovizioso was getting support equal to that of his teammate. And when I say support - I mean not only equipment, but all the things great and small that express the team's belief in the rider as the one on which they pin their hopes for a championship. It can't be easy to rise above the ranks of #2 son when every team you ride for has you pegged as the competent support rider, which doesn't do much for one's confidence, nor I would say does it pump up your motivation, despite the natural impulse to beat your teammate. I do think however, that motivation to smash his teammate, is - conversely - exactly what motivates Lorenzo, because the guy is clearly just wired that way, and that IMHO is a big part of what sets the two riders apart.

ratdeal said:

There is no doubt in my mind that he will be on the pace by seasons end.

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I want some of the drugs you are taking....

RossiSucchia said:

I want some of the drugs you are taking....

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No you don't want that, it would counteract the drug you are already taking, the one that is, that makes you forget you are taking the drug that makes you want to take other people's drugs.

So.....

Where my drugs at?

Maybe Lorenzo could do with some drugs....