Lorenzo switches to Alpinestar leathers

yamaka46 said:

That was what I was meaning. I wasn't implying Lorenzo is a full on narcissist

though I'm sure he'd like "his" sea of fans to be bigger than Rossi's



Disagree with the second para, though. Look at Spies - hardly using the "Rossi model" and yet manages to take Rossi's seat after just one year. That's because he's a fast peddler and that is always marketable. As you say, Stoner doesn't follow the approach either and yet has landed a top seat at Honda - could that be because he is arguably the fastest rider out there and that of his lack of celebrations etc is irrelevant?

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Of course you're absolutely right, being marketable alone is not enough, you have to be fast. And yes, Stoner is with HRC now. But he first had to do a stint at LCR, followed by being second or third choice at Ducati for the factory seat. Lorenzo, on the other hand, had a top factory level bike from to go. Like Rossi when he entered.



Even dominating WSBK in his first season couldn't get Spies a factory ride in his first year. Like Stoner, Spies had to demonstrate beyond any doubt that he has what it takes to be at pointy end first. Moreover, do you think Spies would have a Honda or Yamaha factory seat this year if it wouldn't have been for the fact that Rossi moved to Ducati? And it's not just the gear, it's the behind the scene influence as well.



I'd say that Lorenzo and Rossi are both full on narcissists, that's why they're so successful at playing the crowd. But I strongly suspect they are also very much aware of the good it does them as far as their competitive position is concerned. Still, the act must get tiring to them personally, no matter how warped their minds are. Kind of like Jimi Hendrix feeling pressured to keep on smashing guitars because that's what the crowd called for.



What I find very interesting in this respect, is how much popularity Stoner has gained in recent times. I've lurked on this board for some time, and after being vilified in 2007 and 2008, he seems to have become the other great Motogp rider in many minds. Same thing with many of the news sites. Of course Kropotkin was always pretty fond of him, I think, but many sure were not.

In the Crash.net poll, Stoner was placed second for rider of the decade last week.



I think this change partially (with emphasis on partially) came about because many people hate the bloody theatrics as much as I do, and Stoner never went down that road.

stiefel said:

What I find very interesting in this respect, is how much popularity Stoner has gained in recent times. I've lurked on this board for some time, and after being vilified in 2007 and 2008, he seems to have become the other great Motogp rider in many minds. Same thing with many of the news sites. Of course Kropotkin was always pretty fond of him, I think, but many sure were not.

In the Crash.net poll, Stoner was placed second for rider of the decade last week.



I think this change partially (with emphasis on partially) came about because many people hate the bloody theatrics as much as I do, and Stoner never went down that road.

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Or it could be that people are sick of talking to people like Pinky & Barry, so it's easier to not say anything.



The very fact that any of these boys throw a leg over a bike proves their narcissism, they have all pushed themselves forward to get where they are because they thought they deserved it; It's only the means of expression that differ.

stiefel said:

What I find very interesting in this respect, is how much popularity Stoner has gained in recent times. I've lurked on this board for some time, and after being vilified in 2007 and 2008, he seems to have become the other great Motogp rider in many minds. Same thing with many of the news sites. Of course Kropotkin was always pretty fond of him, I think, but many sure were not.

In the Crash.net poll, Stoner was placed second for rider of the decade last week.



I think this change partially (with emphasis on partially) came about because many people hate the bloody theatrics as much as I do, and Stoner never went down that road.

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I've only been watching for a year and I'm probably a perfect example of this. The only rider I knew of before I started watching races was Rossi. Mostly because of Faster and youtube. So naturaly I gravitaed towards him, the fact that he is damn exciting to watch helped. But as I've read more (Rossi's Autobiography, here, elsewhere), watched more (this season, older seasons, classis races), I've started to lean towards the more easy going riders. I really liked watching Hayden at PI this year go with Rossi, Stoner is so ....... fast (that guy should be "the doctor"!! clinical) and watching Spies get faster/more comfortable every race.



I'm not a fan of the thatrics, Rossi's or Lorenzo's. I respect the crap out their riding, but the pre-planned celebrations are so lame, and all the drama.

stiefel said:

Of course you're absolutely right, being marketable alone is not enough, you have to be fast. And yes, Stoner is with HRC now. But he first had to do a stint at LCR, followed by being second or third choice at Ducati for the factory seat. Lorenzo, on the other hand, had a top factory level bike from to go. Like Rossi when he entered.



Even dominating WSBK in his first season couldn't get Spies a factory ride in his first year. Like Stoner, Spies had to demonstrate beyond any doubt that he has what it takes to be at pointy end first. Moreover, do you think Spies would have a Honda or Yamaha factory seat this year if it wouldn't have been for the fact that Rossi moved to Ducati? And it's not just the gear, it's the behind the scene influence as well.



I'd say that Lorenzo and Rossi are both full on narcissists, that's why they're so successful at playing the crowd. But I strongly suspect they are also very much aware of the good it does them as far as their competitive position is concerned. Still, the act must get tiring to them personally, no matter how warped their minds are. Kind of like Jimi Hendrix feeling pressured to keep on smashing guitars because that's what the crowd called for.



What I find very interesting in this respect, is how much popularity Stoner has gained in recent times. I've lurked on this board for some time, and after being vilified in 2007 and 2008, he seems to have become the other great Motogp rider in many minds. Same thing with many of the news sites. Of course Kropotkin was always pretty fond of him, I think, but many sure were not.

In the Crash.net poll, Stoner was placed second for rider of the decade last week.



I think this change partially (with emphasis on partially) came about because many people hate the bloody theatrics as much as I do, and Stoner never went down that road.

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Spies went to a satellite bike because this is what the rules dictated he must do - the rookie rule.



Lorenzo went to a factory bike because at the time there was no rookie rule, he had won 2 x 250cc championships and he was most importantly SPANISH!



Stoner went to a Satellite bike because he is Australian and he came second in the 250cc championship against the alleged second coming who also just happened to be Spanish.



I would also suggest that Rossi did not move to Ducati he was forced out of Yamaha by Lorenzo winning the WC and the fact that they had Spies that they had to give a factory seat to or risk losing. If Spies was not on the Tech3 and they had another seat filler like Edwards, then the politics behind Rossi moving and Spies stepping up would have been significantly different. It is my opinion Spies contributed almost equally with Lorenzo in Rossi's 'move' to Ducati.



I agree with you though about the theatrics. I can't stand them from either Rossi or Lorenzo. When the race finishes and either of them win I turn off so I am not forced to view it. I then watch the interviews later on motogp.com.

Mental Anarchist said:

Spies went to a satellite bike because this is what the rules dictated he must do - the rookie rule.



Lorenzo went to a factory bike because at the time there was no rookie rule, he had won 2 x 250cc championships and he was most importantly SPANISH!



Stoner went to a Satellite bike because he is Australian and he came second in the 250cc championship against the alleged second coming who also just happened to be Spanish.



I would also suggest that Rossi did not move to Ducati he was forced out of Yamaha by Lorenzo winning the WC and the fact that they had Spies that they had to give a factory seat to or risk losing. If Spies was not on the Tech3 and they had another seat filler like Edwards, then the politics behind Rossi moving and Spies stepping up would have been significantly different. It is my opinion Spies contributed almost equally with Lorenzo in Rossi's 'move' to Ducati.



I agree with you though about the theatrics. I can't stand them from either Rossi or Lorenzo. When the race finishes and either of them win I turn off so I am not forced to view it. I then watch the interviews later on motogp.com.

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Whilst your comment about Spies being unable to gain a factory ride last year were technically correct, the rule in his case was virtually irrelevant.

Yamaha would not have unseated Rossi or Lorenzo for him even if they were allowed to last year.

I also rmember Jarvis continually hoping that they would still have both Rossi & Lorenzo again in 2011. If he succeeded then Ben would still be on a Tech3 bike.



Point 2 - Yamaha did not Vale out, he chose to leave because he did not beleive the team could keep two number 1 riders.

Vale up & leaving made a handy vacancy for Ben at the factory team.

Frizzle said:

Whilst your comment about Spies being unable to gain a factory ride last year were technically correct, the rule in his case was virtually irrelevant.

Yamaha would not have unseated Rossi or Lorenzo for him even if they were allowed to last year.

I also rmember Jarvis continually hoping that they would still have both Rossi & Lorenzo again in 2011. If he succeeded then Ben would still be on a Tech3 bike.



Point 2 - Yamaha did not Vale out, he chose to leave because he did not beleive the team could keep two number 1 riders.

Vale up & leaving made a handy vacancy for Ben at the factory team.

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True but Yamaha is not the only Factory bike on the grid. I know he had a Yamaha contract but contracts mean little in MotoGP. Of course everything is always speculation because no factory team was allowed to bid for Spies because the Rookie rule meant that regardless of what anyone wanted to do Spies was not allowed a factory ride in 2010. If the rookie rule didn't exist I would suggest that competition for Spies would have been hot.

Mental Anarchist said:

True but Yamaha is not the only Factory bike on the grid. I know he had a Yamaha contract but contracts mean little in MotoGP. Of course everything is always speculation because no factory team was allowed to bid for Spies because the Rookie rule meant that regardless of what anyone wanted to do Spies was not allowed a factory ride in 2010. If the rookie rule didn't exist I would suggest that competition for Spies would have been hot.

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Good point. I hadn't considered that.

Mental Anarchist said:

True but Yamaha is not the only Factory bike on the grid.

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Yes but he wasn't gonna get on a Honda as they have 2 established factory riders and made their choice to bid for Simoncelli and put him on factory equipment anyway, so Spies is at best 4th in line to them. suzuki is no better than Satellite Yamaha so Spies only realistic chance of being on a better bike than he was in 2010, rookie rule or not is if you believe that Ducati would have hired him over Nicky Hayden, and that Ben would have gone for it. I don't buy it, at all.

Of course you're right about the rookie rule, Mental, I had forgotten about that. Don't take my remarks as badmouthing Spies either, I have great faith in his abilities to get in among the best in this class, maybe even get a title (or more). But...I was thinking of a competitive factory ride, and there have only been between 4 and 6 (depending on whether you would include Ducati) of those in recent years, none of which had an opening for Spies last year I think. If Rossi would have remained at Yamaha, it would probably been a choice between staying at Tech3, a white Honda (possibly with "full factory support") and factory Ducati. None of these options would guarantee a consistently winning bike.



EDIT



beat me to it Tom

Mental Anarchist said:

True but Yamaha is not the only Factory bike on the grid. I know he had a Yamaha contract but contracts mean little in MotoGP. Of course everything is always speculation because no factory team was allowed to bid for Spies because the Rookie rule meant that regardless of what anyone wanted to do Spies was not allowed a factory ride in 2010. If the rookie rule didn't exist I would suggest that competition for Spies would have been hot.

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Whilst I agree that contracts can be broken, Spies had a Yamaha contract in WSBK. It was only because he did so well in WSBK in 2009 and that JT did so poorly in MotoGP in the same year that Yamaha offered him the Tech Trois seat in 2010 IMO. Not sure anyone else in MotoGP with a sufficiently competitive bike would have been looking at him for 2010 even without the rookie rule, and those without a sufficiently competitive bike would not have been looked at by Spies in as a sensible alternative to another year in WSBK IMO.

yamaka46 said:

Whilst I agree that contracts can be broken, Spies had a Yamaha contract in WSBK. It was only because he did so well in WSBK in 2009 and that JT did so poorly in MotoGP in the same year that Yamaha offered him the Tech Trois seat in 2010 IMO. Not sure anyone else in MotoGP with a sufficiently competitive bike would have been looking at him for 2010 even without the rookie rule, and those without a sufficiently competitive bike would not have been looked at by Spies in as a sensible alternative to another year in WSBK IMO.

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Absolutely. He signed a mutiyear contract with yamaha when he went to wsbk, and my understanding was that they planned for him to go to motogp after 2 years in wsbk, hopefully after winning the championship in the second year. After he won the wsbk title at his first attempt they fast-tracked him. It seems highly likely he could have gone straight to motogp with suzuki to whom the rookie rule does not apply but wisely chose not to do so.

Frizzle said:

Point 2 - Yamaha did not Vale out, he chose to leave because he did not beleive the team could keep two number 1 riders.

Vale up & leaving made a handy vacancy for Ben at the factory team.

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Sometimes I really wonder though. Honda is fielding a 3 rider full factory backed team. Why couldn't Yamaha? The argument that Rossi thinks Yamaha can't keep two No.1 Riders is reasonable...but Spies going to Yamaha I don't see any number 1 or 2 rider. I'm SURE Yamaha thinks Spies can win the title this year, look at how he rode c'mon! ...so in that sense, it's still fielding two No.1 riders. Layman will say Lorenzo is number one cause he won the title, but in my mind (and perhaps others...), Spies has more talent and riding capabilities than Lorenzo. I can see Spies outpace Lorenzo and I don't see Yamaha favouring Lorenzo as that's what dictates who is No.1 and No.2. Yamaha will support both riders equally especially since it's evident the new comer can run for the title.



So that leads me to.... Rossi maybe left because he didn't think the team could keep two riders, but also, he left because Yamaha didn't want to run a three rider factory team...amongst other things.

SBPilot said:

Sometimes I really wonder though. Honda is fielding a 3 rider full factory backed team. Why couldn't Yamaha? The argument that Rossi thinks Yamaha can't keep two No.1 Riders is reasonable...but Spies going to Yamaha I don't see any number 1 or 2 rider. I'm SURE Yamaha thinks Spies can win the title this year, look at how he rode c'mon!

...so in that sense, it's still fielding two No.1 riders. Layman will say Lorenzo is number one cause he won the title, but in my mind (and perhaps others...), Spies has more talent and riding capabilities than Lorenzo. I can see Spies outpace Lorenzo and I don't see Yamaha favouring Lorenzo as that's what dictates who is No.1 and No.2. Yamaha will support both riders equally especially since it's evident the new comer can run for the title.



So that leads me to.... Rossi maybe left because he didn't think the team could keep two riders, but also, he left because Yamaha didn't want to run a three rider factory team...amongst other things.

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First of all - Welcome.

Okay I'll be more direct.

Vale didn't want two number 1 riders at Yamaha.

I was trying to be diplomatic & not get the yellow brigades knickers in a twist.

It is my opinion that you could put Stoner or Rossi on any bike on the grid and they would run top 4. Yes that includes the Suzuki. Stoner would probably go straight to the top 4 and Rossi would inch his way there within 5 - 10 rides.



This opinion extends to probably all the riders in the manner that a riders talent will put him in the vicinity that he deserves and the bike can swing a place or 2 or 3 either way depending on its quality.



This being the case I don't think it would have mattered which bike Spies thru his leg over be it the Suzuki, a satellite Honda or the Yamaha I don't think it would have varied his season placing too significantly.



Regarding the factory Honda availability at the beginning of 2010, I don't believe that Dovi was entrenched enough to suggest that if Spies had of been available to be contracted by a Factory Team (i.e no rookie rule) Honda would not have been interested. In fact I think they would have been very interested for 2 reasons: 1. he would not have been expected to challenge Pedrosa in his first year which keeps Puig and Repsol happy and 2. there was a growing dis-satisfaction with Pedrosa's lack of delivery of the title. As a result Honda were surely looking for a title contender to replace Pedrosa if he failed again in 2010 and if we, the outside observers, were able to identify Spies obvious talent then I am sure that those on the inside were very aware of it.



As it turns out the way the cards have fallen have worked out well for Spies as have they for Stoner and Hayden. Hypothetically if Spies had gone to Honda then the door would probably not have been open for Stoner as the title contender that Honda need in 2011. This would have left Hayden as the most likely victim at Ducati if they were still to pursue Rossi. Rossi would have had to choose between staying at Yamaha and being #2 to Lorenzo or challenge Stoner head to head at Ducati. Neither proposition would be ideal for Rossi as in my opinion he would not have been able to taste victory against either team mate. It is my view that in either of these scenario's Rossi would have retired.

The 'Rookie Rule' is soooooo stupid. I mean seriously, why the fucc was it implemented anyways? Most stupid rule of all in motorsports !!!

SBPilot said:

but in my mind (and perhaps others...), Spies has more talent and riding capabilities than Lorenzo.

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Clearly not through any objective eyes. I don't think anyone, even Yamaha are realistically expecting a title challenge from Spies when he has never won a race before and his team mate is the reigning champion.

Mental Anarchist said:

It is my opinion that you could put Stoner or Rossi on any bike on the grid and they would run top 4. Yes that includes the Suzuki. Stoner would probably go straight to the top 4 and Rossi would inch his way there within 5 - 10 rides.

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Provided that team has plenty of money to redesign the bike for Rossi

Tom said:

Clearly not through any objective eyes.





Provided that team has plenty of money to redesign the bike for Rossi

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Ha.

Goatboy said:

Ha.

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Yes, apart from the chassis, the engine, the current control tyre apparently being unsuitable, and a complete lack of will in the suzuki factory there was not much wrong with the 2010 suzuki. I think bautista is quite talented and did rather well all things considered. Hopkins did finish 3rd or 4th in the championship on a suzuki fairly recently though (?2007).

Tom said:

Clearly not through any objective eyes. I don't think anyone, even Yamaha are realistically expecting a title challenge from Spies when he has never won a race before and his team mate is the reigning champion.

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I seriously doubt ANYONE will run away and hide at the front in '11. I also believe Spies will be competitive in the hunt for the championship well into the season... Through my objective eyes Ben not having yet won a race and Lorenzo being reigning champion have little if any bearing on their relative competitiveness for this coming season.

michaelm said:

Yes, apart from the chassis, the engine, the current control tyre apparently being unsuitable, and a complete lack of will in the suzuki factory there was not much wrong with the 2010 suzuki. I think bautista is quite talented and did rather well all things considered. Hopkins did finish 3rd or 4th in the championship on a suzuki fairly recently though (?2007).

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So he wasn't implying they wouldn't have to re-design it for Stoner? Oh.



& There was me thinking you were an island of sanity in sea of madness, but if you are propagating the double think that goes on here I must be wrong.