Hayden

Make the most of it, boys, you won't get a typo like that outta Jumkie too often

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Jan 30 2007, 12:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That's more information than I needed.


Why, did you have to google "bladder" straight after "Hailwood"?

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (richo @ Jan 30 2007, 12:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Make the most of it, boys, you won't get a typo like that outta Jumkie too often
didn't no he spoke french

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jan 30 2007, 12:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>very strange posting coments you dont believe in but im narrow minded in your oppinion so i guess it figures.
i dont think he was gifted the race, rossi was out due to dnf (all part of the game)
colin and nick pushed eachother to 110% both made loads of hot headed mistakes, one was lucky was was not so lucky, 2 facts, ! they ...... assen 2 it was a fantastic race to watch.
when i say hayden was lucky does not mean he was gifted the win.

I was only Putting in that comment to make a point. And it wasn't actualy aimed at you, it was Pete who said something about Nicky's win, buthe has since made further comments which would suggest i "miss read" his post as usual. But the Nicky being gifted is an opinion which many seem to hold.

As for Rossi being out, he was never really a factor was he, suffering with his injury (lets make no mistake that it was his fault and his own doing, not "bad luck"), so that point isnt actualy relevant.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 30 2007, 12:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As for Rossi being out, he was never really a factor was he, suffering with his injury (lets make no mistake that it was his fault and his own doing, not "bad luck"), so that point isnt actualy relevant.
its relevent ,because ,when the term "hayden being gifted a win"is used it normaly goes hand in hand with the world being divided into rossi and hayden fans, i mentioned rossis dnf because it struck me as unusual for this term to be used when talking about hayden vs edwards battle.
im interested to hear why you think it was rossis oun fault and doing ?

Simle, Rossi pushed too hard on his cold tire and fell off his bike. There was no mechanical problem to try and blame, and i don't recall seeing Nicky reaching over and Twisting Rossis throttle.

I am further interested what you consider the reason for rossis accident to be, and how you could possibly place responsibility for it elsewhere............................

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 30 2007, 12:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Simle, Rossi pushed too hard on his cold tire and fell off his bike. There was no mechanical problem to try and blame, and i don't recall seeing Nicky reaching over and Twisting Rossis throttle.

I am further interested what you consider the reason for rossis accident to be, and how you could possibly place responsibility for it elsewhere............................
im no tyre expert so cant really coment what caused it to fail,i was also unaware that mich or camal yamaha had made and statments as to what cause the failer.
please post a link or something with this information as im very interested,you oviously have more info on this than ive heard.


or am i thinking of the wrong dnf,Its hart to keep track as he unluckly had so many that season. i will review tomorow.

I am amused by how Rossi fans like to blame evry single one of Rossi's problems on tyre faliure. I havn't got a link, but i remember seeing interviews in tv coverage where it was mentioned that the accident was a rossi mistake. And have not heard any one person ever try to suggest it was a tyre faliure, well untill now. Where did u get this idea i might ask

Also worth mentioning that he didn't actually dnf the race, he finished 8th.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 30 2007, 12:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I am amused by how Rossi fans like to blame evry single one of Rossi's problems on tyre faliure. I havn't got a link, but i remember seeing interviews in tv coverage where it was mentioned that the accident was a rossi mistake. And have not heard any one person ever try to suggest it was a tyre faliure, well untill now. Where did u get this idea i might ask

Also worth mentioning that he didn't actually dnf the race, he finished 8th.
as i said, i may be thinking of the wrong dnf or as you said he finished 8th, i was thinking of the front tyre chunk,differnt race.der.(or maybe that was just in rossi fans minds) he had so many problems this season he did well to finish second, or did i amagine them all, and its not as if your to spesific in your facts only your opinions

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ooost @ Jan 29 2007, 01:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hayden will continue to improve as will the 212V, he will be a force at the front for another season.

When was he at the front last season?

After all he won by consistency, not by pushing the front end in most races. Laguna, yes. Assen also, second for 16 laps and first in the last two.

’03 (When Hayden came in the picture to MotoGP)
Capirrossi – Ducati – 4th place
Hayden –HRC – 5th place
Melandri – Yamaha (satellite) – 15th place

‘04
Hayden –HRC – 7th place
Capirrossi – Ducati – 8th place
Melandri – Yamaha (satellite) – 12th place

‘05
Melandri – Honda (satellite) – 2th place
Hayden –HRC – 3th place
Capirrossi – Ducati – 6th place

‘06
Hayden –HRC – 1th place
Capirrossi – Ducati – 3th place (Plus no Gibernau’s threat for ‘07!)
Melandri – Honda (satellite) – 4th place (Plus no Gibernau’s threat for ‘07!)

If Melandri and Capirossi become a bit (Hell Boring) more consistent, it becomes (Hell Boring) interesting… or at least the fact that the three of them are good riders.

I think Hayden will have a tough season this year. Name one ridder that won't.

I get sick of people bashing Valentino and now Nicky. Even though my rider didn't win the #1 plate, I enjoyed the 06 season from the start to end.

Nicky wouldn't have had a ride with Repsol Team if they didn't think he could do it again. If Vale was not in gp this year, my money would be on (gulp!) this team.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Jan 30 2007, 01:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>When was he at the front last season?

After all he won by consistency, not by pushing the front end in most races. Laguna, yes. Assen also, second for 16 laps and first in the last two.

Hayden was pushing near the front in a few races, where I would have said he was capapble of winning if things had gone his way/he had been a bit faster or whatever. The thing is he only won two of them.

Well ladies and gents, I've got a few replies so enjoy.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Jan 29 2007, 11:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>My answer to your question?

If Hayden regains the title this year, I will say the same as I said last year, Hayden did deserve the title (Ive never denied that) All I have said is that the guy needs to start winning races. There is no arguement with that, outside of Laguna (apart from Colins muck up in Assen) the guy can niether lead or win races.

I'm sure all the Haydonettes will read into that that I hate him and curse him in hell, but hey, I'm used to it.

If Nicky goes out and kicks ... next year, then I will be very happy for him. Reading the form book however, I will be very surprised if he does.

Pete
First of all Pete, despite what Jumkie and some others may thinkg, you're a pretty balanced guy. Hayden had some good fortune and some bad fortune in 2006, all the best for 2007 in all camps involved, yeah?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Jan 29 2007, 11:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You and pete might want to check out that race on your crafty "VHS" again. Edwards got in front because he came in entirely too hot, which is called a "mistake". He crashed because as he was running wide to try and make the turn, he almost ran Hayden off the track. He went into the grass at that point and ate crap. This mistake was forced by himself because of the pressure that Hayden applied by taking away his lead in the final moments. No luck on Hayden's part. That's called racing aggression and poise. And despite Colin almost crashing into Hayden, he was able to ride through Colin’s mistake and win the race. Exactly were is there luck involved here?
Come one Jumkie. I'm a Hayden fan and I don't even buy into this. Nicky and Colin both went way too deep into the chicane. Edwards didn't push Nicky wide, they both tried to win a braking duel and both went wide. Nicky was luck to keep it up through the gravel, Edwards was unlucky to bin it in the grass. Doesn't mean either rider rode an undeserving race. End of story.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jan 30 2007, 12:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>very strange posting coments you dont believe in but im narrow minded in your oppinion so i guess it figures.
i dont think he was gifted the race, rossi was out due to dnf (all part of the game)
colin and nick pushed eachother to 110% both made loads of hot headed mistakes, one was lucky was was not so lucky, 2 facts, ! they ...... assen 2 it was a fantastic race to watch.
when i say hayden was lucky does not mean he was gifted the win.
+1 Rog

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Jan 30 2007, 03:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>When was he at the front last season?

After all he won by consistency, not by pushing the front end in most races. Laguna, yes. Assen also, second for 16 laps and first in the last two.
Well he did manage to win Assen and Laguna despite some members' selective memory, he also had a few laps led at various rounds and I do believe first place in rider World Championship standings does count as being at the front. Correct me if I'm wrong.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 30 2007, 12:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I was only Putting in that comment to make a point. And it wasn't actualy aimed at you, it was Pete who said something about Nicky's win, buthe has since made further comments which would suggest i "miss read" his post as usual. But the Nicky being gifted is an opinion which many seem to hold.

As for Rossi being out, he was never really a factor was he, suffering with his injury (lets make no mistake that it was his fault and his own doing, not "bad luck"), so that point isnt actualy relevant.


My point is that Nicky hasnt proved himself as a guy who can get out front and win a race. Sorry if I p##sed you off Tom, but Im fed up of folk putting their own spin on what I say, and some ... had just crashed into me when I was driving home last night and I was not in a good mood.

Edwards made a mistake at a time when Nicky was on the grass and out of contention, which looked to be down to pressure, coz if he had realised that Hayden was on the grass, I'm sure he would of let of the gas and stayed on.

Like we both agree, its racing, sometimes you get the breaks sometimes you dont.

Pete

Wow, an actual Rossi/Hayden thread without much of my input. Amazing. And here I though it was me fueling the fire. I'm trying to stay out of this one. You see Capirex, I'm not always the one.

(Hey new guys/gals, you may want to read some of the old threads, cuz eventually, somebody is gonna feel hurt, then the mods are gonna come out and say this is "beating a dead horse" thread. (no offense mods, just trying to help you guys out).

Hey pete, you're stuck in gear. Say something insightful. (If you can buddy.)

Its all very entertaining to see guys that come out here and throw there two cents in, as if they got it all figured out, saying something like "facts facts", but then shown to be wrong, and all of a sudden have faulty memory. Then revert to the, well my poor boy had so many bad days and dnfs and bla bla, that I just can't “remember”. But you claim to remember particular moments of a race with your VHS. (We call that backpedaling here). Oh, and the one who claims to have been watching GP for 142 years, wanting us all to go google something, as if he owns the market on GP knowledge is quite cute, especially when trying to debate, reverting to quoting himself. All very entertaining.

I didn't realize there were people that thought the winner of Assen was "lucky". But I shouldn’t be supervised. With all the "luck" he had this year, he may have been better suited for a Vegas trip than a racing career. We all know what is meant when people chalk it up to "luck", so trying to go back and saying, I didn't mean "gifted" is just backpedaling also.

Many of my postings have not been "mindless cheerleading" for my guys, but rather it has been responding to those trying to show that his championship was gained by unsavory means that so many continue to try and tarnish. But it’s the way you do it, that I characterize as the "mindless cheerleading". Because most of it is always characterized by "luck" or some variation; in relation to Rossi. In other words, you “cheer” for your boy by degrading Hayden. And the word "consistency" is thrown around as if that is a bad thing. I don't believe I have ever started a thread to “mindlessly” praise Hayden, but I have seen many that have been started to "mindlessly" belittle his accomplishments. (As thinly veiled attempts to bring up the issue). It’s all simply "sour grapes".

Whoever it was that said this was genius, somebody on this site said: we all are fans of somebody but it’s the Rossi fans that seem to be cultic about it. But it’s rebuffed by how Rossi actually is, a fairly gracious competitor. (Paraphrasing) It’s so true. And the new boots have again shown that this attitude is very much alive.

I already said what I wanted to say on a previous post, but I just felt compelled to add some more. In particular, that Rossi is a great rider; I have never said anything different. (I challenge anybody to show me where I have ever contradicted this, other than a joke to some mindless cheerleader.) Furthermore, Rossi, I think, not Pedrosa (as many say), will be the man to watch. Why, because he is a competitor that lost the title and is super motivated to get it back. He is young, talented, and motivated, and more mature. I think perhaps this maturity has got him thinking about his legacy. I believe he will want to regain the title and go out on top to pursue other interests. I’m not gonna count him out, unlike so many that have counted out Hayden, but I’m not gonna give him the title just yet, as so many have already. But I will say that Rossi will be again the man to beat. That’s called respect. The man is human, and though he made a mental mistake under duress at Valencia, I don’t expect him to do it again.

Since this thread is about Hayden. It seems no matter what he does or did; some people will still always chalk up this season to “luck” (either his good luck or Rossi’s poor luck). People bring up his Laguna wins as condescending, but never mention that this is due to experience on this track, exactly how Rossi and the other boys have had more experience on the European tracks. Of course Rossi etal will win on European track, after-all they are all their “home” tracks. So can we say, well yeah but Rossi hasn’t won a Laguna, as if to say he is not a good racer, as those imply about Hayden’s wins at Laguna? Like I said, it doesn’t matter, we will always have the mindless cheerleading and cult following for Rossi, no matter who wins the championship. Hayden has shown he has both the speed and mental character to be a World Champion, and he will be a force to be reckoned with this year.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Jan 29 2007, 11:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>but Im fed up of folk putting their own spin on what I say,
Its not spin, despite Ooost patting you on the back. You say what you say and stand by it. It’s just that you have been challenged, and then backpedal. You have been balanced sometimes, but other times way off balance. So what? You don't own the knowledge container buddy. If you got a point, and somebody like me disagrees, then debate it. But when it ends with you reverting to jokes because you don’t have the skill or tenacity to support your argument and go off contradicting yourself and shown the door, you get all flustered and say I'm spinning or misreading what you say, but its all in print for the world to see.

BTW, I hope your ok. If I said a “...” crashed into me, I think it would be perceived as a good thing over here.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ooost @ Jan 29 2007, 11:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Come one Jumkie. I'm a Hayden fan and I don't even buy into this. Nicky and Colin both went way too deep into the chicane. Edwards didn't push Nicky wide, they both tried to win a braking duel and both went wide. Nicky was luck to keep it up through the gravel, Edwards was unlucky to bin it in the grass. Doesn't mean either rider rode an undeserving race. End of story.
Ooost, I’m also a Hayden fan too (does this give more or less credibility to my perception of the events…), (or are you implying that I'm cheerleading?) ...respectfully, I don’t “buy” into your description of the last moments of the Assen race. It was exactly as I described it (do you have the race on tape or DVR?) Watch it again. What exactly don’t you “buy” about what I said? Did not Colin retake the lead in the final turn before the Chicane (as I described) (and this was after he had run off track, as Roger didn’t seem to remember) and caught back up to Hayden. If you listen to the commentator, he says well before the race is over that Hayden will win this race (thinking that Colin would not catch up). And he does ("throwing caution to the wind" is what the comentator says), and goes into the Chicane way too hot (this means too fast) (you call it a breaking duel?) He runs so wide that he goes into the line that Hayden was gonna take who was showing him a front wheel at that moment. And since you memorized the race, did you see Hadyen react by standing up the bike? That’s the reaction one has when another rider goes into their line. This was a mistake by Colin. This was not luck by Hayden. Then they both go off track. How could Colin manage to go off track without running wide forcing the adjacent riders of track too??? So you say Hayden was “lucky” and the other “unlucky”? Do you mean to tell me that Colin didn’t make a mistake? Or is this “unlucky”? Play your tape in super slow motion. Can you see Colin’s suspension load up then spring forward when he regains pavement? This is because he catches the edge of the pavement while off track. Hayden ran deeper into the gravel and was able to maintain a straighter line. So when he came out of it his suspension didn’t load up and rebound as Colin’s did. My opinion is that this happened because Colin, who was in the lead, came in too fast and ran wide, so much so that he clipped the edge of the pavement, and while breaking, he ran into what Hayden’s line would have been had Colin been able to negotiate the chicane. But since he didn’t, Hayden stood up his bike (as the video indicates) and rode straight through and onto the other side to win the race. Perhaps you mean that Hayden was “lucky” that Colin didn’t clip him, which I would agree, but to say Hayden was “lucky” to keep it up in the gravel is debatable. In my opinion, he rode the straightest line, which was the most stable. And this to me is rider input not “luck”.

sorry jumkie,i tryed to read you post all the way through honest but fell asleep with bordom, again you just try to put your spin on others comments,very clever,you could get a good paying job as a spin doctor in my country,getting prez blair out of the .....
butr if you go back and read what was said you will find it was colin and rossi who were getting bashed not you beloved haystack,
lucky to stay on and being gifted the race are 2 totaly different things you can put as much spin on that as you like but it doesnt change it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Jan 29 2007, 03:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>There is no arguement with that, outside of Laguna (apart from Colins muck up in Assen) the guy can niether lead or win races.
Roger, I'm quoting pete, is this spin??? I was responding to this characterization of Hayden’s win at Assen. To say it was Colin's "muck up" then to say "the guy" (he was referring to Hayden) "can neither lead or win races" to me is "spinning" (or maybe you don't know what "spin" is?

As usual roger, you don't read carefully and you go sticking your foot in your mouth as pete often does. And you call it "spin", please. This is "spinning": both implying, "Colin's muck up" to say Hayden was not there applying pressure to win, and explicitly "bashing" as you put it as he referred to Hayden not having the ability to "lead" or "win" which is both incorrect.

Now what ever you respond, well that can most probably be characterized as “spin”.





Obviously, I wasn't the only one that thought this was a mischaracterization of Hayden's win in Assen.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 29 2007, 03:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But i don't think its particularly fair to discredit hayden for that win just because Edwards fell off. I mean Hayden was there, applying the pressure as hard as he could. And Pushing rivals into mistakes is a usefull tactics if the the oponent is weak in the mind.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Jan 30 2007, 09:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Its not spin, despite Ooost patting you on the back. You say what you say and stand by it. It’s just that you have been challenged, and then backpedal. You have been balanced sometimes, but other times way off balance. So what? You don't own the knowledge container buddy. If you got a point, and somebody like me disagrees, then debate it. But when it ends with you reverting to jokes because you don’t have the skill or tenacity to support your argument and go off contradicting yourself and shown the door, you get all flustered and say I'm spinning or misreading what you say, but its all in print for the world to see.

BTW, I hope your ok. If I said a “...” crashed into me, I think it would be perceived as a good thing over here.
Ooost, I’m also a Hayden fan too (does this give more or less credibility to my perception of the events…), (or are you implying that I'm cheerleading?) ...respectfully, I don’t “buy” into your description of the last moments of the Assen race. It was exactly as I described it (do you have the race on tape or DVR?) Watch it again. What exactly don’t you “buy” about what I said? Did not Colin retake the lead in the final turn before the Chicane (as I described) (and this was after he had run off track, as Roger didn’t seem to remember) and caught back up to Hayden. If you listen to the commentator, he says well before the race is over that Hayden will win this race (thinking that Colin would not catch up). And he does ("throwing caution to the wind" is what the comentator says), and goes into the Chicane way too hot (this means too fast) (you call it a breaking duel?) He runs so wide that he goes into the line that Hayden was gonna take who was showing him a front wheel at that moment. And since you memorized the race, did you see Hadyen react by standing up the bike? That’s the reaction one has when another rider goes into their line. This was a mistake by Colin. This was not luck by Hayden. Then they both go off track. How could Colin manage to go off track without running wide forcing the adjacent riders of track too??? So you say Hayden was “lucky” and the other “unlucky”? Do you mean to tell me that Colin didn’t make a mistake? Or is this “unlucky”? Play your tape in super slow motion. Can you see Colin’s suspension load up then spring forward when he regains pavement? This is because he catches the edge of the pavement while off track. Hayden ran deeper into the gravel and was able to maintain a straighter line. So when he came out of it his suspension didn’t load up and rebound as Colin’s did. My opinion is that this happened because Colin, who was in the lead, came in too fast and ran wide, so much so that he clipped the edge of the pavement, and while breaking, he ran into what Hayden’s line would have been had Colin been able to negotiate the chicane. But since he didn’t, Hayden stood up his bike (as the video indicates) and rode straight through and onto the other side to win the race. Perhaps you mean that Hayden was “lucky” that Colin didn’t clip him, which I would agree, but to say Hayden was “lucky” to keep it up in the gravel is debatable. In my opinion, he rode the straightest line, which was the most stable. And this to me is rider input not “luck”.


I'm not in the habit of back pedalling! and I dont mind being challenged by intelligent arguement, but to say I'm well off balance, this (above) is the first time Ive read a post of yours that I have read as balanced. You are the one who got all excited in the Schwantz thread because you could not admit you had misread my post!

If I revert to jokes, it's because there is no point argueing with someone who cant answer a question properly, you might as well take the piss and have a laugh.

I dont claim to own the fountain of knowledge, but I dont like having my opinions dismissed as cheerleading by anyone. But, as Ive said before, Ive been following GP bike racing for a long time, and I do know a bit about it. If I post an arguement or a post, then it is from what I have learned over the years, not a quick surf to Google, and quickly glean some information, and scurry back.

Ive said it before, and I'll say it again, I do like Hayden, I do think he earned the championship, but I find him infuriating, as I found Alex Criville, that I think he is he's a "right place right time racer." I'm sure plenty folk remember the "Tow Truck " comments Doohan kept making at the time. Criville could run with Doohan if he got in behind him, but couldnt lead from the front.

My favourite racers over the years have always been the guys who could raise their game and make the others look secondhand. Some people dont like that, and find these guys boring. Rossi didnt make GP boring , other riders did by not running his pace! (obviously there are exceptions) ditto Schumacher and Doohan, and as aracing fan, thats what I want to see.

btw Jumkie, I'm ok, but when the ... is 17 years old, male, wearing a baseball cap and driving a VW, its not a good thing.

Makes you think tho, a bashed in door on the car and me and my girlfriend ok, but Ive Id been on my bike..........

Doesn't bear thinking about, fight the real enemy guys!!

Stupid twats cost lives.

Pete