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JohnnyKnockdown said:

Great post Dub, you summed up my thoughts.
Like I said before, I feel that Stoner fans are largely made up of Rossi haters and Australians. I dont buy this true riders love Stoner bullocks. True riders seem to gravitate toward Rossi, for whatever reason but I suspect they admire his grit and savvyness.

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You would be surprised actually JKD as Rossi would have more fans in Australia than Stoner did and remains to have, and that is for much the same reason that you and others seem to dislike/disrespect Stoner. Fact is, he (like a few actually) never garnered the Australian general public in the same way as Rossi has done, although many who have or had watched racing for years respected his ability, that by itself does not mean that they are or were fans.

Now, as for this 'true rider' ........, wtf is a 'true rider'?

I do readily admit however that a lot of a person's likes/dislikes when it comes to Stoner and/or others depends on the era where the heart may reside or long for.

MdubSTYLIE said:

Completely true. However he hasn't left. He chooses to "test" to prove to himself he is still fast. If he really despises Dorna then why do that? Why feel the need to prove something? And then after honda slighted him why feel the need to move back to another manufacturer? His decisions and words never align.

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He did actually leave for a year and was then bought/encouraged back by HRC and subsequently Ducati as it was getting close to their anniversary and Ducati wanted to have their most successful racer aligned. They approached him, not he approached them from memory and I suspect near any rider approached by a factory with the offers he had been and within the circumstances would accept.

As for why return to DORNA, that in itself is an interesting question but I am sure I have seen him asked somewhere and his response was quite blunt 'he is not racing and as a result does not have to put up with the associated circus surrounding the sport' (paraphrased from memory).

The other aspect is that some (not all) of his testing days are Ducati tests, not DORNA organised so his involvement with DORNA is quite minimal

MdubSTYLIE said:

If I quit a sport league because it was a sham I most certainly would not feel the need to test for it just because I like to go fast. I could do that someplace else. Thats my problem with his whole career. Not with what he says but his actions don't match his words.

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Fair point, but you can't get to test MotoGP machines away from the sport itself as unlike days past, these things are a lot harder to find in a private setting.

Many former bike racers will say that whilst they can jump in a car and go fast, it does not provide the same challenge or thrill as does a motorbike, and of course that also acquaints to the situation being that many could not enjoy a street bike in the same way that they can enjoy an MotoGP bike.

Personally I suspect that a rider such as Colin Edwards would rather ride an M1 over an R! for example

Little Walter said:

Would that be the same Rossi who said, "Stoner, he ride like a God!"?

Pissed away is your perspective. The other one being, he walked away from a money making circus that was sucking him dry. He didn't want to sell his soul for one more trophy on the mantlepiece.

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Anybody who can walk away from a confirmed by HRC offer of $20 million US for a single season is ok in my book and shows truth of conviction, integrity and that he (or she but in this case he) is leaving the sport for the right reasons and more power to them

MdubSTYLIE said:

Right because if it ain't Stoner then its not a hate crime. This thread was off the hinges making fun of Calbert in the beginning. But question Stoner and you start another world war.

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You continue to prove my sole point, which was that you are more obsessed with Stoner than I am.

Who has kept a several page discussion which now involves yet another round of discussion about his status in the sport, justification for his retirement etc, etc, going.? Certainly not me. I made a parenthetical reference in context to a poster who was not you which concerned his current role as a Ducati test rider.

Iamapony said:

What excuse am I making for what? The guy quit because he wanted to be a family man and stop racing. BIG ....... DEAL. Why can't he quit when he feels like it. Jeezus fvking-a Christ.There is no excuse, because there is nothing to excuse.

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This is actually something I find in a lot of sports and have discussed here previously on this very topic with a few posters ................ the fact that some people seem to think that an athlete owes them, or simply put, the fan owns the athlete.

No athlete is truly competing in a sport for fans, they are there to test themselves in the relevant pursuit and if fans happen to enjoy that participation, then all well and good, but no athlete is competing to win fans or because the fans drive them to compete. Yes, some may use the noise generated by fans as motivation, some may enjoy the adulation, some may respect the fans that follow them but none are competing for the fans.

All to often we see the butt hurt because an athlete retired and yet some seemingly 'involved' fans cannot accept that the athlete left for any number of reasons, many of which may not be obvious or even understandable to the observer but still the fan will say that the reason is wrong.

Of course the same can and does happen as an athlete moves from team A to team B and the once revered athlete now becomes a subject of ridicule and scorn by that fan who is owed so much by the athlete.

Stoner left the sport on his terms, at a time he chose to leave the sport and to me, irrespective of who the athlete is if they chose to leave, at a time they choose, under the circumstances they choose, then who the f*ck am I to question it. They know their minds, their body, their motivation and what they want to do in the years ahead and getting out on their terms is to me an admirable aspect.

Sadly with out sport a number of people never get to make that choice as it is made for them by any number of circumstances

Gaz said:

He did actually leave for a year and was then bought/encouraged back by HRC and subsequently Ducati as it was getting close to their anniversary and Ducati wanted to have their most successful racer aligned. They approached him, not he approached them from memory and I suspect near any rider approached by a factory with the offers he had been and within the circumstances would accept.

As for why return to DORNA, that in itself is an interesting question but I am sure I have seen him asked somewhere and his response was quite blunt 'he is not racing and as a result does not have to put up with the associated circus surrounding the sport' (paraphrased from memory).

The other aspect is that some (not all) of his testing days are Ducati tests, not DORNA organised so his involvement with DORNA is quite minimal





Fair point, but you can't get to test MotoGP machines away from the sport itself as unlike days past, these things are a lot harder to find in a private setting.

Many former bike racers will say that whilst they can jump in a car and go fast, it does not provide the same challenge or thrill as does a motorbike, and of course that also acquaints to the situation being that many could not enjoy a street bike in the same way that they can enjoy an MotoGP bike.

Personally I suspect that a rider such as Colin Edwards would rather ride an M1 over an R! for example

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Good points gaz. Still if something sucked the life out of me I'd stay away. Get to close to something that has that effect one you and it could happen again.

michaelm said:

You continue to prove my sole point, which was that you are more obsessed with Stoner than I am.

Who has kept a several page discussion which now involves yet another round of discussion about his status in the sport, justification for his retirement etc, etc, going.? Certainly not me. I made a parenthetical reference in context to a poster who was not you which concerned his current role as a Ducati test rider.

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Yup heard you the first time. Refer to my previous reply. Are you stuck on repeat. Do you need a reboot?

MdubSTYLIE said:

Good points gaz. Still if something sucked the life out of me I'd stay away. Get to close to something that has that effect one you and it could happen again.

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I think it all depends though Dubs.

If what sucked the life out of you is not at the same level, or even present as a test/social day then why not do them?

Why do top flight footballers retire but then still play socially or in 'lesser' leagues where the surrounding circus and subsequent stresses are more greater reduced?

Your last sentence is valid but at the same time I ask you this.

When you competed at a high MTB level, if you then returned to a simple club day, were the external pressures the same?

I suspect that the pressures you placed on yourself were likely the same, but those placed on you by organisers, other riders, fans, hangers on etc would have been greatly reduced (pressures as opposed to expectations).

Gaz said:

I think it all depends though Dubs.

If what sucked the life out of you is not at the same level, or even present as a test/social day then why not do them?

Why do top flight footballers retire but then still play socially or in 'lesser' leagues where the surrounding circus and subsequent stresses are more greater reduced?

Your last sentence is valid but at the same time I ask you this.

When you competed at a high MTB level, if you then returned to a simple club day, were the external pressures the same?

I suspect that the pressures you placed on yourself were likely the same, but those placed on you by organisers, other riders, fans, hangers on etc would have been greatly reduced (pressures as opposed to expectations).

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Interesting question for me gaz, I guess I'll answer. I didn't compete at a high level of mtb I was a professional in another discipline for nearly 15 years. I did take up mtb after going cold turkey from riding for about 4 years. Yes I did return because the fire to ride came back an instantly brought back the desire to race. The pressure part is the thing I'm struggling with. Exactly right, its the same. I tell myself not to take it to serious but it hard when you have done something on a higher level. I debate on not racing and just doing it for fun but I can't I enjoy the process to much.

I would imagine its the same for Casey but on a much higher level.

MdubSTYLIE said:

Interesting question for me gaz, I guess I'll answer. I didn't compete at a high level of mtb I was a professional in another discipline for nearly 15 years. I did take up mtb after going cold turkey from riding for about 4 years. Yes I did return because the fire to ride came back an instantly brought back the desire to race. The pressure part is the thing I'm struggling with. Exactly right, its the same. I tell myself not to take it to serious but it hard when you have done something on a higher level. I debate on not racing and just doing it for fun but I can't I enjoy the process to much.

I would imagine its the same for Casey but on a much higher level.

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Oh, so now you seem to finally be getting it.

JPSLotus said:

Oh, so now you seem to finally be getting it.

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Hey I get why he wants to test and I also get why he doesn't race. Its the reason he doesn't race we disagree on.

But to answer an earlier question Dub, without Stoner riding, I switched to MM. Is as much fun to watch riding as Casey was and in some way exceeds it because the riding style is different. I think Marc would have had his hands full with Casey (as would Casey) if they had rode together way more than anything Pedrosa has been able to muster up. In the end I think you would have seen both become transcendent in terms of skill because they would have pushed each other to levels we could only imagine. You might have seen Rossi retire tbh because he would have seen no chance of number 10. Would have been a fascinating combo had it panned out as both with the right bike in hand are simply devastating to watch. I cannot even imagine how demoralized the field would be going up against those two on the factory Honda's.

MdubSTYLIE said:

Hey I get why he wants to test and I also get why he doesn't race. Its the reason he doesn't race we disagree on.

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One thing he was asked at Sepang in 2016 I believe by the media in the garage, was something along the lines of if he retired because it was dangerous. I think it might have been after the Loris Baz delamination. He said the danger has never mattered to him and it wasn't why he retired.

JPSLotus said:

But to answer an earlier question Dub, without Stoner riding, I switched to MM. Is as much fun to watch riding as Casey was and in some way exceeds it because the riding style is different. I think Marc would have had his hands full with Casey (as would Casey) if they had rode together way more than anything Pedrosa has been able to muster up. In the end I think you would have seen both become transcendent in terms of skill because they would have pushed each other to levels we could only imagine. You might have seen Rossi retire tbh because he would have seen no chance of number 10. Would have been a fascinating combo had it panned out as both with the right bike in hand are simply devastating to watch. I cannot even imagine how demoralized the field would be going up against those two on the factory Honda's.

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I think Marc has the riding ability of Stoner with the mental strength of Rossi. He is a force on all levels. He has really learned how to play the game.

Love that scenario you laid out. If they would have gotten along it would have been unimaginable.

JPSLotus said:

One thing he was asked at Sepang in 2016 I believe by the media in the garage, was something along the lines of if he retired because it was dangerous. I think it might have been after the Loris Baz delamination. He said the danger has never mattered to him and it wasn't why he retired.

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I just wished his retirement speech didn't sound so angry. If thats how he really felt at the time or not he should have chosen to appreciate the people who were there for him more than focus on the haters.

MdubSTYLIE said:

At :37 not the family but the media and fans.

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Okay. Loosely paraphrasing.

JohnnyKnockdown said:

I guess you've never seen Arabb break out the literary napalm and go scorched earth on a detractor.
I may be dumb, but not that dumb

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Huh? Whut?

MdubSTYLIE said:

Interesting question for me gaz, I guess I'll answer. I didn't compete at a high level of mtb I was a professional in another discipline for nearly 15 years. I did take up mtb after going cold turkey from riding for about 4 years. Yes I did return because the fire to ride came back an instantly brought back the desire to race. The pressure part is the thing I'm struggling with. Exactly right, its the same. I tell myself not to take it to serious but it hard when you have done something on a higher level. I debate on not racing and just doing it for fun but I can't I enjoy the process to much.

I would imagine its the same for Casey but on a much higher level.

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And that is what I suspect.

The issues with CS (as he is the subject of the discussion) do not differ in terms of his own expectations as he is there to do his best and compete (test) to the best of the ability by cutting fast lap times. Throughout every interview I have ever seen with him he has always said that his drive is not an issue as it remains as fervent as it was in the past but that the 'surrounding circus' of testing is not the same environment as racing (he and others use the term friendlier environment).

I suspect that the testing allows him to compete and fill that 'internal requirement' which satisfies the 'fun' aspect with which you struggle to a degree.

No harm there either as it must be hard to drop back to a 'fun factor' given that to compete at high levels requires an almost 'insane' level of competitiveness (insane in terms of to the average person).

Throughout the years I have know a few top level athletes and have been luck to play social sport with them (Rugby League and Soccer with people who had played nationally, Indoor Soccer with a few internationals and golf with some top players) and can say that it is a different experience as they try to reign in that natural instinct that drove them to high levels. Some manage it, some don't but for those that do manage to reign it in you can see that it is a genuine struggle at times, something I will never have to experience myself.

Gaz said:

You would be surprised actually JKD as Rossi would have more fans in Australia than Stoner did and remains to have, and that is for much the same reason that you and others seem to dislike/disrespect Stoner. Fact is, he (like a few actually) never garnered the Australian general public in the same way as Rossi has done, although many who have or had watched racing for years respected his ability, that by itself does not mean that they are or were fans.

Now, as for this 'true rider' ........, wtf is a 'true rider'?

I do readily admit however that a lot of a person's likes/dislikes when it comes to Stoner and/or others depends on the era where the heart may reside or long for.

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Interesting about the Rossi fandom. I really don't know much about Aussie blokes, but from what Ive seen they seem to be the blue collar, hard knock sort that takes little ......... I figure they would admire Stoner's attitude but be put out with unwillingness to be the next Doohan.
Who's Oz's biggest motorcycle star? Doohan, Bayliss, Stoner? Is Mladin even in that conversation?
As far as the term true rider, forget I ever said that. Its a horseshit, pretentious term. What I was referring to was guys that race, whether it be pros or track day warriors. A lot of them and a lot of young kids coming up seem to be 46 fans.
I remember AMA rider Josh Herrin in his younger days used to run the 46 and if I recall correctly used to nickname himself "baby rossi".
The jealous argument I find ridiculous. We all dislike certain athletes, none of it is due to jealousy, though I would call any person on this forum a liar if they weren't jealous of Stoners lifestyle.

Gaz said:

And that is what I suspect.

The issues with CS (as he is the subject of the discussion) do not differ in terms of his own expectations as he is there to do his best and compete (test) to the best of the ability by cutting fast lap times. Throughout every interview I have ever seen with him he has always said that his drive is not an issue as it remains as fervent as it was in the past but that the 'surrounding circus' of testing is not the same environment as racing (he and others use the term friendlier environment).

I suspect that the testing allows him to compete and fill that 'internal requirement' which satisfies the 'fun' aspect with which you struggle to a degree.

No harm there either as it must be hard to drop back to a 'fun factor' given that to compete at high levels requires an almost 'insane' level of competitiveness (insane in terms of to the average person).

Throughout the years I have know a few top level athletes and have been luck to play social sport with them (Rugby League and Soccer with people who had played nationally, Indoor Soccer with a few internationals and golf with some top players) and can say that it is a different experience as they try to reign in that natural instinct that drove them to high levels. Some manage it, some don't but for those that do manage to reign it in you can see that it is a genuine struggle at times, something I will never have to experience myself.

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Being a racer or athlete is not a switch that can be flipped on and off. Its always stuck in the on position.