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Obviously you were one of the yellow horde that disappeared in 2011, cause Stoner had one of the most dominant seasons any rider has had in the GP era his first year on the Honda.
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Obviously you were one of the yellow horde that disappeared in 2011, cause Stoner had one of the most dominant seasons any rider has had in the GP era his first year on the Honda.
Let's not pretend Stoner wouldn't have won on the Yamaha. There's a reason why Rossi vetoed him as a teammate. As said on here before he won in spite of Ducati not because of it.
Stoners record at Honda: 32 races, 15 wins, 26 podiums 1 title
Pedrosa during the same period: 32 races, 10 wins, 24 podiums 0 titles.
That doesn't make Pedrosa Stoners equal during their time together at all.
Stoners record at Honda: 32 races, 15 wins, 26 podiums 1 title
Pedrosa during the same period: 32 races, 10 wins, 24 podiums 0 titles.
That doesn't make Pedrosa Stoners equal during their time together at all.
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Your problem is that many on this forum actually remember the history you attempt to re-write.
Dani Pedrosa is incapable of sealing the deal unfortunately, perhaps partly due to bad luck with injuries, but they don't award titles to riders for having a good chance if they hadn't been injured.
Most of his premier class career he has had a couple of week-ends per season when he is untouchable, but not been with/up with the contenders the rest of the time, and he seems to need to achieve a perfect set-up, or at least believe he has a perfect set-up, to excel. The one year to which you refer when he had a larger number of wins was one when whilst Dani was racking up the wins Lorenzo had a large lead in the title race and was riding conservatively, for once his team-mate rather than he was injured, and Rossi was riding a Ducati.
His record is still nothing to be sneered at obviously, with more premier class race wins than most against constant very high quality opposition, and he was a genius 125 and 250 rider as has been said. Oddly he probably looked best on the 990 Honda rather than during the 800 formula allegedly promoted by Honda with him in mind.
(EDIT Sure MM is entirely to be admired, with as much talent as probably anyone in the history of the sport, as well as toughness/ stick-at-itiveness at a Rossi level; I am sure he is targeting 8/10 titles or better himself, and may well get there. His absolute ferocity and the impossibility of intimidating him may well have resulted in him prevailing over that other rider I am not allowed to mention, but if that rider had ridden with the focus he had in his 2 title winning seasons it would have been a good contest imo, and MM does seem to have had a problem with getting Honda to build good bikes during his latter tenure there. Saying the rider concerned ran away from MM is re-writing history/post hoc, he by all reports wanted to retire directly after the 2011 title and was dissuaded by Nakamoto the Honda principal, was being offered 20 million dollars a year by Honda which suggests he was a strong priority for them, MM wasn't eligible to ride for HRC in 2013 at the time, and MM actually won the moto 2 title, and had the amazing first to last race win etc iirc in 2012, rather than in 2011 when he was beaten by Bradl, and in fact was in some doubt generally in the post season with eye/visual problems after the Willairot incident in late 2011.)
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Arrabbiata1
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This is a very good point.
I've recounted this several times on here, but at Laguna in 2010 we were fortunate enough to attend a QA session through HRC hospitality. speaking to Dani afterwards, who is very approachable, I asked him which he preferred, the 800cc formula or the old 990s. He said that as one would expect, the 800s required far more precision lacking the torque of the 990 - but, he said, the 990s were much more fun to ride...and with that his face lit up with a huge infectious grin. Genuinely, nice guy as most of the paddock will testify. I think that because he was so formidable on a 250 there was a natural expectation that he would have summoned this to his benefit on the 800. It would certainly have been interesting to have seen Biaggi ride them.
'The Worst' mentioned that Lorenzo for one may have been lucky - of all these riders, you could make a very strong case that the 800cc formula suited his style the best, but Jorge admirably adapted this to fit the litre bikes that superseded the loathsome 800s.
Is actually interesting that I have never seen a rider who did compete on the 990cc, the 800 era and the current 1000cc era say that they preferred the 800.
Stoner has said the same as Pedrosa with regards the 990 (although he did also say that he would love the chance to ride a 500) and from memory, Rossi has also made no secret that he preferred the 990 (but that was during the 800 era so may have been standard Rossi-speak as I have not seen that repeated in the 1000cc era)
All that tells me is that these guys all want the power over precision (if that makes sense) which to me, reinforces the need to allow development to push the envelope not tame it
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Pedrosa was at home on the 125cc and 250cc bikes. Some of those battles he had were incredible since you could see how much more he was able to do with the 250cc bikes than anyone else. IIRC, I remember thinking he was always at a greater lean angle at certain parts of corner entry than anyone else was. Probably the advantage in his size making it far easier and quicker to get the bike tipped over on corner entry. Always thought Dani could get out of corners way better than his competitors even on the GP bikes when things were right with the bike. You still see it periodically, but since the onset of the Michelin tires, it's rare.
Brno 2012 was an excellent race from him, in particular how he stayed glued to Lorenzo till he overtook him. Even when he lost the position over the final laps, he never let go of Lorenzo and managed to get Lorenzo to make what at that time was an uncharacteristic forced error running down into the final chicane when he blew right past the braking point trying to stay in front of Pedrosa.
Do like those two videos since they show the dichotomy of Pedrosa in a nutshell.
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At the end of the day, isn't the goal of all riders to win a championship? At least I'm not aware of too many riders who make it to that level no matter how short of a stint it is as a full-time rider who aren't aspiring to win a title. It's not to diminish winning grands prix as even that in itself is a pretty daunting task when you consider the playing field, and how exceedingly difficult it is to win 1 race, let alone multiple races without being on a factory Yamaha/Honda.
I do agree that not everyone gets a chance and it doesn't mean they didn't have a successful career in GP. Reality always has been you are judged based on being able to win a title. That's what offsets the second half of Freddie Spencer's career where if it weren't for what he did from 1982 thru 1985, he would not even be mentioned as anything more than a trivia answer to an obscure question.
Definitely feel in Pedrosa's situation he underachieved in spite of the numerous GP victories he has had since his rookie season in 2006. He had a window in which to win a title and was not able to seal the deal, and the window is gone. He'll forever be one of the great 125cc/250cc riders, but looking solely at his GP career, because of the team he rode for and the opportunities he had, it's hard to not walk away feeling like he was a failure of sorts even though he meets most of the measurements of success.
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Dani is a great rider, probably the greatest of all time without a top class title (at the moment), and better than many who did win any. Is Pedrosa a failure compared to say Criville, Roberts Jr or Hayden? I don't think so. He's a rider of comparable overall skill to Lorenzo, and dare I say, Stoner. The three of them very different, all great, but with major flaws too, compared to Rossi and particularly Marquez.
We're talking about a guy who is arguably one of the top 5 riders of all time. Do you think the Schwantz's, Rainey's, Doohan's etc would hold a candle against any of these guys? Unless you're American, Australian or just blinded by nostalgia, you know they wouldn't. It's a different generation and not a fair comparison, but these guys are athletes who haven't done much else in their lives, with a ruthless work ethic and just complete motherfuckers on the track.
We're talking about a guy who is arguably one of the top 5 riders of all time. Do you think the Schwantz's, Rainey's, Doohan's etc would hold a candle against any of these guys? Unless you're American, Australian or just blinded by nostalgia, you know they wouldn't. It's a different generation and not a fair comparison, but these guys are athletes who haven't done much else in their lives, with a ruthless work ethic and just complete motherfuckers on the track.
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I didn't say Stoner ran away from MM, but that, in hindsight, it might have been the right time to leave considering what was coming.
I wouldn't say MM was really "beaten" by Bradl in 2011 though. He crashed during FP in Malaysia due to an unexpected wet patch of track that marshalls failed to see in time to prevent any accidents. It could have cost him his career, but in the end it only cost him the Moto2 title. I don't think that even Bradl's mum would have bet a penny on his son to win it before that happened. The Willairot crash happened in PI.
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Rossi vetoed Stoner? Is there a source for that? Although even if true, all these top guys would probably veto each other from being teammates if given the chance... and in fact didn't Marquez pressed Honda to not let Stoner replace Dani when he was injured?
Anyway. If you take the races that both riders finished each season, you can also throw these more relevant head-to-head stats:
2011: Dani 4-Stoner 7
2012: Dani 7-Stoner 6
2013: Dani 5-Marquez 9
2014: Dani 2-Marquez 14
...
Ok, I'll take the bait.
Absolutely, positively, undoubtedly - .... YES.
The question should actually be how many of the current crew (which for arguments sake say is since 2000) could or would compete with the older school 500cc riders of years past ?
It has actually been discussed here a number of times so search is a friend but irrespective of which bike you were to put them on I would say that the older school riders would easily be as competitive, and in some ways more competitive than the current crop.
Now, I will agree that in likelihood, the current crop are more physically fit but technology has identified ways for these guys to achieve peak fitness but do not overlook efforts of riders past and do not sell short their individual fitness levels, just that many were fit in different ways. You seem to have a somewhat infatuation with proving the Pedrosa is better than some, but even Pedro admits that his size and strength (lack of) is an issue at times which would indicate that these things are hard to ride and that a tailored fitness program is required, but not always achieved.
Now where you point goes awry is assuming that riders of years past would not or could not be the equal of these guys 'with a ruthless work ethic and just complete motherfuckers on the track'.
To me, quite simply that is wrong as if you look back at years past these guys actually tested far more (rules allowed it), trained quite hard for the time (cycling, running and early weights) and as for not being hard motherfuckers on the track - well if Gibbers thought Rossi was tough (as an example) he should be thankful that he raced Rossi and not others. The others were as complete on track as any of todays racers and it must be remembered back in their day, they did not have the engineering or electronic technology that today's riders are afforded.
Moreso, if people think that the old school riders were in any way less, they raced in a harder era, more bikes on track, massively varying skill levels, less media interference and far harsher attitudes. Riders of yesteryear were far harsher, some may say dirty riders by comparison of todays riders who may whinge of a single harsh overtake where years back, every bloody overtake would be called harsh by todays standards.
The old school riders would fight for position as if their lives depended on it, they gave nothing for being liked by the crowd and gave their all to win races, never mind second the attitude meant that they had to win it or they lost.
IMO only here, but very few of the current riders would last on a circuit with the old school riders as the modern rider would not know what had hit them in terms of aggression.
This is not to besmirch the modern rider in any way as times change, sports sanitise, technology comes to play, although I would say that the only place I will say that the modern rider is better is in times, which flows from technology but even then, technology has played a major part in that.
As for Pedrosa being one of the top 5 of all time, sorry but far from the mark as there are many riders throughout the history of the sport who have out achieved Pedrosa and others so I would suggest that history will beg a different top 5. Race wins are only a part of the story and no matter how much you may will it, Roberts Jr, Hayden, Criville all have their names listed as MotoGP or 500cc World Champions, something that to date Dani does not, and something that places them higher on the ladder
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Arrabbiata1
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Yes.
Although you missed out Lawson and Spencer.
You also massively underestimate KRjnr and the magnitude of his achievement on the RGV500.
2012 - prior to Indy it was 6 - 3 in Stoner's favour. Now, I assume that you are familiar with what happened at Indy but as a reminder, Stoner suffered a fall in practice that resulted in injury forcing him out for 3 subsequent races but including and after Indy the score reads 4 - 0 to Pedrosa which includes the Indy race won by Pedrosa and in which Stoner rode injured. You fail to mention the injury as (I assume) it does not suit the narrative so I thought that I would mention it for you and also the fact that Pedrosa won 7 races that season, 6 of which came after Stoner was injured and at a time where Lorenzo started to ride for a championship.
Stats are quite telling if you want them to be.
There were so many I could think of that deserve to be added but I will add a further due to Worst's need to prove Pedrosa as one of the greatest 5 of all time - Mamola.
A guy as hard as many of years past
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Let's not forget having to thread the needle on the Salzburgring's back stretch leaned over at 180MPH with the throttle pinned, and the mountain and armco barrier inches away.
The "golden era" 500s were a different form of racing to 4 stroke racing.
Whether the great riders of that era would have adapted to the modern high tech (imo over teched/over electronicked) bikes is a legitimate question, but so is whether the current riders, mostly products of 125/250 racing, would have adapted to the brutal (not infrequently actually life threatening) 500 2 strokes of the era concerned; the 125/250 riders of the day didn't so well, most of the championships were won by American and Australian ex-superbike riders. Rossi we know can win on a 500, although a tamer version, but Lorenzo of whom I am a major fan and Dani whom I also quite like would have to ride quite differently from their current riding styles, an adaptability neither has much demonstrated even with different tyres in the 4 stroke formulae. I would back MM to adapt on the basis of him being as talented as any of the riders in question, but he couldn't ride an 80s/early to mid 90s 500 2 stroke with the same reckless abandon he has exhibited at times in his premier class career.
As for even MM being a "tougher ............" than the likes of Doohan, Rainey and Schwantz, no actually.
We also have the overlap of the careers of the riders concerned, including the near overlap of Rossi's and Doohans career, and the actual overlap of his and Rossi's main competitors. A case can be made for Rossi being better than Doohan, to which I at one time subscribed (not so much now, particularly on the "mental toughness" criterion Worst himself raises), and if he has dominated Dani Pedrosa over nearly all his career, which he pretty much has, and continues to do at age 38, I am fairly sure Doohan could have handled Dani.
You make pretty much exactly the same argument for MM in 2011 that can be made for Stoner in 2012.
I do think Stoner didn't ride with the same focus in 2012 as in 2011, and still had good enough equipment to win in 2012 even after Dorna's multiple handicapping efforts, but in the end he crashed in practice at Indy (while leading the times and having won the previous race after 2 poor results) at the same place several other riders crashed and having previously made the assessment the track wasn't up to standard.
Much of the crashing in his premier class career was on bikes on which others would have been lucky to sniff a podium, as Rossi rather demonstrated in 2011. What he does have is 2 seasons as great as any of MM's or Rossi's title winning seasons, and 2011 includes a race he was leading well ahead of Dani which was cancelled, and a race where he was well ahead of Dani as a much more noted wet rider when taken out entirely unrelated to any riding error of his own by one of the most egregiously stupid riding errors from a major rider I have ever seen.
Dani has never shown the ability to put together a season like Stoner's 2007 and 2011 seasons, and it seems unlikely now he ever will, perhaps not entirely unrelated to his lack of premier class titles.
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