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povol · Jul 4, 2017

Vinales clash shows Marquez playing with MotoGP rivals - Crutchlow - MotoGP - Autosport.
Crutchlow,like many who follow GP is of the belief that Marquez is so talented he will win the title for years to come barring injury and is playing with the competition .

p4p1 · Jul 4, 2017

I don't know that Marquez is so much playing with his rivals because he doesn't have the bike to do so. I will say though from I've heard from an interview with his brother he is crazy enough to touch someone to ruffle their feathers. I remember Alex saying something about how crazy Marc is and always has been in the sense that he just doesn't feel the same way about danger as others do. Anyway from what we saw of the Viñales incident there doesn't seem to be an easy blame on either side and it appears to be more of a retaliation after MV stuffed it up the inside.

As Cal said though, mind games don't seem to work at all with Marquez and from what we have seen do harm to the perpetrator.

Iamapony · Jul 4, 2017

MdubSTYLIE said:
My first was response to you was in direct response to someone mentioning stoner so you are incorrect. I'm not making mountains out of it just pointing out the obvious.

I get your point. I probably have been guilty of proclaiming Stoner's abilities, beyond what is necessary. However, since the current discussion is about Ducati and the men who ride Ducati, Stoner is quite appropriate to use as the benchmark. The only other rider that I might use for comparison would be Capirossi.

The trouble I always find when "Ducati vs. riders" is discussed is that the opinions are divided almost exactly by Rossi fan status. If you are a Rossi fan, then it's all Ducati's fault. If not, then Stoner becomes an even more impressive rider with his record at Ducati. And Rossi becomes even less impressive, despite his record on other bikes. It makes evaluation of the current situation, tough, unless the blinders come off.

Rider PLUS machine equals results. You could put Rossi or Stoner on a KTM, and I bet they wouldn't win. However, on a current Ducati, I might think differently.

p4p1 · Jul 4, 2017

Iamapony said:
I get your point. I probably have been guilty of proclaiming Stoner's abilities, beyond what is necessary. However, since the current discussion is about Ducati and the men who ride Ducati, Stoner is quite appropriate to use as the benchmark. The only other rider that I might use for comparison would be Capirossi.

The trouble I always find when "Ducati vs. riders" is discussed is that the opinions are divided almost exactly by Rossi fan status. If you are a Rossi fan, then it's all Ducati's fault. If not, then Stoner becomes an even more impressive rider with his record at Ducati. And Rossi becomes even less impressive, despite his record on other bikes. It makes evaluation of the current situation, tough, unless the blinders come off.

Rider PLUS machine equals results. You could put Rossi or Stoner on a KTM, and I bet they wouldn't win. However, on a current Ducati, I might think differently.

KTM is very hard to evaluate right now. Last year it looked as if machinery was holding smith/espargaro back. It's clear now that the bikes tech 3 have didn't drop in quality since the Crutchlow, Dovi, Spies days but the riders aren't really up to the challenge.

MdubSTYLIE · Jul 4, 2017

Iamapony said:
I get your point. I probably have been guilty of proclaiming Stoner's abilities, beyond what is necessary. However, since the current discussion is about Ducati and the men who ride Ducati, Stoner is quite appropriate to use as the benchmark. The only other rider that I might use for comparison would be Capirossi.

The trouble I always find when "Ducati vs. riders" is discussed is that the opinions are divided almost exactly by Rossi fan status. If you are a Rossi fan, then it's all Ducati's fault. If not, then Stoner becomes an even more impressive rider with his record at Ducati. And Rossi becomes even less impressive, despite his record on other bikes. It makes evaluation of the current situation, tough, unless the blinders come off.

Rider PLUS machine equals results. You could put Rossi or Stoner on a KTM, and I bet they wouldn't win. However, on a current Ducati, I might think differently.

I was just ....... with jps although my opinions do align with what I was saying. I have no problem with arguments that include stoner based on his abilities but I hate how everything is so Rossi/stoner dominate. Stoner is talented but he is no Marc Marquez.

Iamapony · Jul 4, 2017

povol said:
Vinales clash shows Marquez playing with MotoGP rivals - Crutchlow - MotoGP - Autosport.
Crutchlow,like many who follow GP is of the belief that Marquez is so talented he will win the title for years to come barring injury and is playing with the competition .

So, Marc crashes on purpose, just to keep it interesting? I don't think so. Marquez is brilliant. And he is my favorite to watch race, but he is not a god. He crashes a lot. Playing with the field would be: keeping the points lead, but letting other riders win. He just got the points lead, barely. Lorenzo has played with the field, too. They would start to catch him, and he would add another 5mph in every corner. So what does that prove?

Crutchlow's excuse for this race was really Cal gold: He wasn't getting enough clean-cool air to the front tire so it over inflated. He is watching too much NASCAR. lol

MdubSTYLIE said:
I was just ....... with jps although my opinions do align with what I was saying. I have no problem with arguments that include stoner based on his abilities but I hate how everything is so Rossi/stoner dominate. Stoner is talented but he is no Marc Marquez.

I guess it's human nature to pick a team or person to root for in all things. It's that tribal instinct and it applies to many things, right or wrong. I try to be more objective, but I often fail that lofty goal, too.

povol · Jul 4, 2017

Iamapony said:
So, Marc crashes on purpose, just to keep it interesting? I don't think so. Marquez is brilliant. And he is my favorite to watch race, but he is not a god. He crashes a lot. Playing with the field would be: keeping the points lead, but letting other riders win. He just got the points lead, barely. Lorenzo has played with the field, too. They would start to catch him, and he would add another 5mph in every corner. So what does that prove?

Crutchlow's excuse for this race was really Cal gold: He wasn't getting enough clean-cool air to the front tire so it over inflated. He is watching too much NASCAR. lol

I guess it's human nature to pick a team or person to root for in all things. It's that tribal instinct and it applies to many things, right or wrong. I try to be more objective, but I often fail that lofty goal, too.

What he is saying without getting his hand slapped is these pos Michelins have such a narrow performance window, the slightest variation in temp makes them feel like a totally different tire.

SlartyBartFast · Jul 4, 2017

MdubSTYLIE said:
One side pouts off endless love for a rider to the point its utterly annoying. The other spouts of hate at an even faster pace. You be the judge of which is more annoying.

A lot of Rossi fans fail to distinguish the difference between dislike of the organisers favoritism towards him and dislike of Rossi himself. As soon as one of Dorna's questionable decisions is pointed out, the poster is immediately labeled a hater.

Gaz · Jul 4, 2017

MdubSTYLIE said:
One side pouts off endless love for a rider to the point its utterly annoying. The other spouts of hate at an even faster pace. You be the judge of which is more annoying.

Toilet seat up, or toilet seat down

MdubSTYLIE · Jul 4, 2017

Gaz said:
Toilet seat up, or toilet seat down

In America men and woman are free to make that decision for themselves in the bathroom they chose.

MdubSTYLIE · Jul 4, 2017

SlartyBartFast said:
A lot of Rossi fans fail to distinguish the difference between dislike of the organisers favoritism towards him and dislike of Rossi himself. As soon as one of Dorna's questionable decisions is pointed out, the poster is immediately labeled a hater.

Yes yes I am well aware of that. See thats kind of my point only Stoner lovers feel the need to constantly remind everyone. Boredom maybe. IDK

Keshav · Jul 4, 2017

Iamapony said:
I get your point. I probably have been guilty of proclaiming Stoner's abilities, beyond what is necessary. However, since the current discussion is about Ducati and the men who ride Ducati, Stoner is quite appropriate to use as the benchmark. The only other rider that I might use for comparison would be Capirossi.

The trouble I always find when "Ducati vs. riders" is discussed is that the opinions are divided almost exactly by Rossi fan status. If you are a Rossi fan, then it's all Ducati's fault. If not, then Stoner becomes an even more impressive rider with his record at Ducati. And Rossi becomes even less impressive, despite his record on other bikes. It makes evaluation of the current situation, tough, unless the blinders come off.

Rider PLUS machine equals results. You could put Rossi or Stoner on a KTM, and I bet they wouldn't win. However, on a current Ducati, I might think differently.

Rossi less impressive? To Boppers; unthinkable. I'm not one to discount Rossi's achievements, it's just, as you said, Stoner is that much more phenomenal by comparison, something that drives the Yellow Clown Crew nuts. Stoner's stature will be a benchmark to compare all future "aliens" for years to come, so naturally, his name will crop up over and over again. Stoner and Rossi are very polarizing figures. People who view themselves as racing purists tend to love Stoner for his accomplishments and people who tend to be in thrall to cult of personality tyoes tend to see Rossi as the be all and end all. I figure you can appreciate Rossi for what he's done and still be a HUGE admirer of Stoner. One doesn't have to exclude the other.

Gaz · Jul 4, 2017

MdubSTYLIE said:
In America men and woman are free to make that decision for themselves in the bathroom they chose.

But the debate continues.

Nobody ever discusses toilet seats from different eras without allowing one's own bias to impede, never mind the rubber toilet seats of years gone by.

MdubSTYLIE · Jul 4, 2017

Gaz said:
But the debate continues.

Nobody ever discusses toilet seats from different eras without allowing one's own bias to impede, never mind the rubber toilet seats of years gone by.

I can only imagine the amount of up and downs you have seen over your long lifetime. That is as long as you aren't a sitter. I won't judge you on by that. I already know how much you like stoner.

SlartyBartFast · Jul 4, 2017

MdubSTYLIE said:
Yes yes I am well aware of that. See thats kind of my point only Stoner lovers feel the need to constantly remind everyone. Boredom maybe. IDK

Fair enough.

Gaz · Jul 4, 2017

MdubSTYLIE said:
I can only imagine the amount of up and downs you have seen over your long lifetime. That is as long as you aren't a sitter. I won't judge you on by that. I already know how much you like stoner.

At 50, I have seen many ups and downs, but man I am an Aussie, we only 'sit to ....' as they say

As for CS, I have said many times that I will defend where needed, and critique where needed but as for today's type of discussion, he is 'past tense' so any comparison is rather null and void as we can never know with surety but like comparing mountain bikers of past eras, it can make for good robust discussion.

Just FWIW, you will know that I do not rate CS as highly as many as my bias is definitely the two smoke era

MdubSTYLIE · Jul 4, 2017

Gaz said:
At 50, I have seen many ups and downs, but man I am an Aussie, we only 'sit to ....' as they say

As for CS, I have said many times that I will defend where needed, and critique where needed but as for today's type of discussion, he is 'past tense' so any comparison is rather null and void as we can never know with surety but like comparing mountain bikers of past eras, it can make for good robust discussion.

Just FWIW, you will know that I do not rate CS as highly as many as my bias is definitely the two smoke era

He was an interesting character no doubt. I'm sad he's not in the paddock as much as his fans.

Gaz · Jul 4, 2017

MdubSTYLIE said:
He was an interesting character no doubt. I'm sad he's not in the paddock as much as his fans.

Is interesting to me that so many people (fans?) talk about how much they want character in the paddock, people who do not 'toe the line' so to speak, yet when we get them they are called whingers, whiners, moaners and subject to ongoing ridicule (and this is not just CS, but look at CC, Jack, the Asparagus brothers etc).

But that said, I suspect also that in this social media driven world of today, where people get butt hurt at stubbing a toe, a lot of people are now looking for a purpose to dislike rather than accept that as individuals, we are, well, individual

MdubSTYLIE · Jul 4, 2017

Gaz said:
Is interesting to me that so many people (fans?) talk about how much they want character in the paddock, people who do not 'toe the line' so to speak, yet when we get them they are called whingers, whiners, moaners and subject to ongoing ridicule (and this is not just CS, but look at CC, Jack, the Asparagus brothers etc).

But that said, I suspect also that in this social media driven world of today, where people get butt hurt at stubbing a toe, a lot of people are now looking for a purpose to dislike rather than accept that as individuals, we are, well, individual

Why do have to name off 5 people who fit into those categories? Asparagus brothers? Do you like cheese and whine?

I've said before I miss the days of the old school .... the umbrella girl sneak in a cig racer of yesteryear. But I think the media in dorna are responsible for that change.

Gaz · Jul 4, 2017

MdubSTYLIE said:
I've said before I miss the days of the old school .... the umbrella girl sneak in a cig racer of yesteryear. But I think the media in dorna are responsible for that change.

Give me the old Doohan, Rainey, Schwantz, Lawson type of days and interviews any day over the current crop of athletes (and this is all sports as well really) that seem to follow a script that ensures nothing controversial gets mentioned and that all sponsors get thanked.

Agree that in many ways DORNA is responsible as (and I do cut some slack here) it is their job to build and promote the sport (and happy to say they are not doing a great job here) and so of course having sanitised statements and having control over what is said suits their business approach.

It is all up a somewhat interesting issue though, as when in the past people have spoken out in the recent times many are derided whilst some are applauded as it all seems to depend on what, who and of course how it gets said. Good old media speak as they say.

.... it, go back to two smoke beasts and let the men (and women) decide

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